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5 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Yet the English word "foreordained" (found in the King James translation ONLY in 1 Peter 1:20, as the translation for the Greek verb "proginosko")  DOES indeed mean -- "to ordain beforehand; predestinate."

And the English word "ordain" means -- "1) to put in order, arrange, prepare; 2.a) to decree, order, establish, enact; 2.b) to predetermine, predestinate; 3) to invest with the functions or office of a minister, priest, or rabbi."

So then, CAN the Greek verb "proginosko" mean "to foreordain," that is -- "to before arrange; to before decree; to predetermine; to predestinate"?

I thought we were discussing the word "foreKNOW"??

 

First of all, the word origins of "ordain" simply mean "order" as in "set in order". If you want to see an example of another, the Greek word translated "ordained", in Acts 13:48,, is also translated "addicted" in another place in the NT. When you're "addicted" to something, your life is "set in order" and "established" toward that thing you're addicted to. Know what I'm saying? And I strongly suspect the "reformed" movement, early on, had great influence on how this English word has been corrupted. Now, ordain is mainly used to refer to a priest or preacher's "ordination" and little else. And I don't hardly think it meant "predestinate".

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You know, my observation of Calvinism is that a) it isn't learned from the Bible - it comes from the teaching of men - many books and 'much learning' - and b) it presents itself as an intellectual doc

OK, if Bro. Dave will not "rag on MacArthur" I will. I will also disagree with Bro. Dave where he said that MacArthur needs to be taken very carefully. I don't think he should be "taken" at all. MacAr

Deserves a double "like" in my opinion. ;)

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
16 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Yet the English word "foreordained" (found in the King James translation ONLY in 1 Peter 1:20, as the translation for the Greek verb "proginosko")  DOES indeed mean -- "to ordain beforehand; predestinate."

And the English word "ordain" means -- "1) to put in order, arrange, prepare; 2.a) to decree, order, establish, enact; 2.b) to predetermine, predestinate; 3) to invest with the functions or office of a minister, priest, or rabbi."

So then, CAN the Greek verb "proginosko" mean "to foreordain," that is -- "to before arrange; to before decree; to predetermine; to predestinate"?

Well, if I were really going to delve further into this (of which I don't have time right now), these are the steps that I probably would take...

  1. I would try to find out what the English word "ordain" (or foreordain if possible) meant in the 1600s...or as close to the 1600s as possible.
  2. I would then look at the other scriptural instances of the Greek word that is translated as "foreordained" here...to see their use(s) and context(s).
  3. Then I'd probably look at what the Greek word "ordain(ed)" means.
  4. Then I'd look at what context its various uses are.
  5. Then with that knowledge, I'd again look at the the verse in question.

Whether I do all of that, I don't know. Gotta go...

Hope the Lord gives you a great day!

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Please consider that the english word is more than sufficient (as always IMO). Ordained in any tense or usage requires a volunteer to agree to it. It never means nor implies against the will of an individual. God simply knows who all the voluntary believers are throughout history who are ordained to everlasting life.

The same explanation goes for the Lord Jesus Christ who the Father always knew would willingly be our Savior.

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13 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

I thought we were discussing the word "foreKNOW"??

Brother Wayne,

My posting as follows:

39 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Yet the English word "foreordained" (found in the King James translation ONLY in 1 Peter 1:20, as the translation for the Greek verb "proginosko")  DOES indeed mean -- "to ordain beforehand; predestinate."

And the English word "ordain" means -- "1) to put in order, arrange, prepare; 2.a) to decree, order, establish, enact; 2.b) to predetermine, predestinate; 3) to invest with the functions or office of a minister, priest, or rabbi."

So then, CAN the Greek verb "proginosko" mean "to foreordain," that is -- "to before arrange; to before decree; to predetermine; to predestinate"?

Was given in relation to my earlier posting as follows:

3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Speaking as Pastor Scott Markle, the opponent of Calvinism,

Indeed, it is an interesting subject to ponder in what manner the eternal Son of God was "foreordained" (Greek verb, "proginosko") as the Christ, the sacrificial Lamb of God, as per 1 Peter 1:18-21.

However, in the debate against Calvinistic doctrine, the word "foreordained" in 1 Peter 1:20 can create a significant difficulty for the non-Calvinist; for it would provide evidence that the Greek verb "proginosko" (which is the same Greek verb that is translated as "foreknow" in Romans 8:29) can carry the meaning of "foreordained" decisionally, as opposed to simply "foreknown" informationally, or even "foreloved" relationally.  As such, the use of the same Greek verb in Romans 8:29, translated "foreknow," could then mean "foreordained decisionally in Romans 8;29 also.  How then does the non-Calvinist deal with this problem?

There is no doubt that a Calvinist will use the King James translation's usage of the English word "foreordained" in 1 Peter 1:20 as a  translation for the Greek verb "proginosko" to argue that the Greek verb "proginosko" (which is also that found in Romans 8:29) CAN mean "predestinated; pre-chosen."  So then, how do we non-Calvinist's respond with Biblical validity unto this argument?

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Isn't a witness someone who provides testimony based upon personal knowledge? If so, then to witness to someone is to give testimonial to the truth of the gospel. I honestly don't see its misuse.

Acts 26:22-23

 22  Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

 23  That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

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22 hours ago, wretched said:

Please consider that the english word is more than sufficient (as always IMO). Ordained in any tense or usage requires a volunteer to agree to it. It never means nor implies against the will of an individual. God simply knows who all the voluntary believers are throughout history who are ordained to everlasting life.

The same explanation goes for the Lord Jesus Christ who the Father always knew would willingly be our Savior.

wretched,

This is something that I still struggle with. I know that you and I have had our differences in the past, but believe it or not, I have the utmost respect for you. I find your down-to-earth and blunt posts to be both refreshing and a blessing (at times...LOL!). As I've said before, I most certainly believe that if all one has is the KJV, that's all they need. At the same time, I also believe that if one has access to "other" study aides, they are of certain benefit. At this point in my Christian walk, I rely first and foremost upon the KJV. My first move (when encountering something that I feel deserves more study) is to try to see what "something" meant in the 1600's. If that doesn't "pan out", I will research the Greek/Hebrew. 

I hope the Lord gives you a blessed day dear brother!

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1 minute ago, No Nicolaitans said:

wretched,

This is something that I still struggle with. I know that you and I have had our differences in the past, but believe it or not, I have the utmost respect for you. I find your down-to-earth and blunt posts to be both refreshing and a blessing (at times...LOL!). As I've said before, I most certainly believe that if all one has is the KJV, that's all they need. At the same time, I also believe that if one has access to "other" study aides, they are of certain benefit. At this point in my Christian walk, I rely first and foremost upon the KJV. My first move (when encountering something that I feel deserves more study) is to try to see what "something" meant in the 1600's. If that doesn't "pan out", I will research the Greek/Hebrew. 

I hope the Lord gives you a blessed day dear brother!

Understood brother and your Christlike attitude is always a blessing!

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1 minute ago, wretched said:

Understood brother and your Christlike attitude is always a blessing!

I'd stinkin' hug you if I could!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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18 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

I'd stinkin' hug you if I could!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Honesty though NN, I am guessing you don't feel Christ-like on this forum sometimes when having to re-explain things to Calvinists, etc.. but you come across as patient and kind and that is what counts.

I myself, am still working on it with the Spirit :4_2_109v:

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33 minutes ago, wretched said:

Understood brother and your Christlike attitude is always a blessing!

10 minutes ago, wretched said:

Honesty though NN, I am guessing you don't feel Christ-like on this forum sometimes when having to re-explain things to Calvinists, etc.. but you come across as patient and kind and that is what counts.

I wish to express my agreement with Brother "Wretched" on this point.

 

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13 minutes ago, wretched said:

Honesty though NN, I am guessing you don't feel Christ-like on this forum sometimes when having to re-explain things to Calvinists, etc.. but you come across as patient and kind and that is what counts.

I myself, am still working on it with the Spirit :4_2_109v:

 

2 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I wish to express my agreement with Brother "Wretched" on this point.

 

Who? Me?

LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As the song goes..."He's still working on me..."

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46 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

 

Who? Me?

LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As the song goes..."He's still working on me..."

.....how loving and patient He MUST be.......... :)

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On 13/04/2017 at 2:19 AM, No Nicolaitans said:

Isn't a witness someone who provides testimony based upon personal knowledge? If so, then to witness to someone is to give testimonial to the truth of the gospel. I honestly don't see its misuse.

Acts 26:22-23

 22  Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

 23  That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Would seem so considering the verse you quoted.  But witness is to see or experience something and to testifie is to bear witness, I believe.

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19 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Would seem so considering the verse you quoted.  But witness is to see or experience something and to testifie is to bear witness, I believe.

My personal take on it is that "witness" applies to both seeing/experiencing something...and...to testify about something. For example...

To testify...

Acts 4:33
And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
 

To see/experience something...

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
 

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Hello to all,

I have had ample time to think and pray while enjoying vacation and during this time I have realized that I have too many irons in the fire.  I do want to pursue Brother Scott and I's conversation but feel it is counter productive concerning other things I need to get done.  It is garden time, my book beckons and speaking invitations increase this time of year and it seems I will need to take a part time job if my wife and I wish to continue traveling on occasion. 

 

I ask for your forgiveness, but I will lay aside the topic of election for a couple of months and perhaps reconnect with Brother Scott later in the summer.  I will continue to be active on the forum but only every few days.

 

 

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1 John 4

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

 

I just can't see how a man can love people, and tell them that the God of the Bible may or may not love them and may or may not have died for them. I don't see how his WORDS can TRULY confess the Jesus Christ of John 3:16 while his underlying teachings say otherwise.

Edited by heartstrings
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My first thought seeing the title of the thread was "oh no" ,   more posts for that one (mac),  or a thread continuing his (macs) errors (false gospel).    I thought a more apropo title, conveying what is known and posted and published,  would be 'Accursed' or 'Anathema' ,  so as to not (even accidentally) give a false impression or sense of approval nor value nor importance for a false teacher ...     

My second thought,  reading the 1st post, was GOOD, the truth (being or starting to be)  rightly being exposed....

Many other thoughts later, after reading a dozen or three dozen posts in the thread,   I think and/or feel like this:

    On 4/12/2017 at 12:51 PM, No Nicolaitans said:

    Well, if I were really going to delve further into this (of which I don't have time right now),

[Click and drag to move]

....    and more importantly realizing:  If any man lacks wisdom,  let him ask of God ....

James 1:5 KJV: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of ...

biblehub . com / kjv/ james/1-5.htm
Geneva Study Bible {5} If any of you lack {e} wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

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On 4/12/2017 at 10:18 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Speaking as Pastor Scott Markle, the opponent of Calvinism,

Indeed, it is an interesting subject to ponder in what manner the eternal Son of God was "foreordained" (Greek verb, "proginosko") as the Christ, the sacrificial Lamb of God, as per 1 Peter 1:18-21.

However, in the debate against Calvinistic doctrine, the word "foreordained" in 1 Peter 1:20 can create a significant difficulty for the non-Calvinist; for it would provide evidence that the Greek verb "proginosko" (which is the same Greek verb that is translated as "foreknow" in Romans 8:29) can carry the meaning of "foreordained" decisionally, as opposed to simply "foreknown" informationally, or even "foreloved" relationally.  As such, the use of the same Greek verb in Romans 8:29, translated "foreknow," could then mean "foreordained decisionally in Romans 8;29 also.  How then does the non-Calvinist deal with this problem?

By staying away from the Greek which is used many times as a backdoor attempt to correct or change what the KJV says. "Foreknow" and "Foreordained" are not the same words in the English language. Not even the same meanings in the roots of the English words. You can know someone beforehand but not ordain them to anything beforehand.

Even so, our predestination has to do with those that God knows will receive his Son as their Savior will be someday be changed (conformed) into the image of his Son. It has nothing to to with a predestination or foreordaination to being saved.

 

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38 minutes ago, SureWord said:

By staying away from the Greek . . .

Certainly I would agree that the two English words "foreordained" and "foreknown" are two completely different words with two completely different root meanings in the English.  However, my question specifically related to the Greek, wherein the SAME Greek verb is translated with both of these English words.  My intention was to indicate that the Calvinist will most certainly bring this forward in their argument, and thus we non-Calvinists should have a legitimate Biblical response.  

Now, it appears that your response to this matter would simply be -- The Greek does not matter at all, only the English.  However, I myself would have a problem with this response.  I would ask -- Was the Greek directly inspired by God the Holy Spirit, such that He directly moved the penmen to write precisely the Greek words that He intended?  If the answer to this question is "yes," then I would further ask -- Why would I want to cast aside and stay away from that which God the Holy Spirit directly inspired? 

Furthermore, I would ask -- Was the English in the Authorized King James translation directly inspired by God the Holy Spirit, such that He directly moved the translators to choose precisely the English words the He intended?  If your answer is "yes," then it would appear that you hold to "double inspiration," to which I would ask wherein God's Word supports the doctrine of "double inspiration" unto a translation, and that specifically in the English language.  If your answer is "no," then I would ask -- Why would I want to cast aside and stay away from that which God the Holy Spirit directly inspired (in the Greek), and only consider that which is translated from it, but is not directly inspired by God the Holy Spirit?

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1 hour ago, Scott Lyons said:

Want an eye opener on just how evil MacArthur and his schools are? Read this! http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/the-account-of-john-macarthur-rick-hollands-horrific-handlin.html

14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

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