Human Sinfulness & The Accountability of Babies

[wretched]

Excellent points made by NN. But one caught my eye quickly in regards to how a child or even a mentally retarded person could repent.

I hear folks time and again claiming a child can "understand" the gospel. Basic understanding that Jesus loves them and is God is evident in children when prompted by an adult. I have never heard a single child ever say "OH NO HE ISN'T" But knowing inherently by faith that Jesus is God as a little child is not repentance. and is not enough for conversion. it is akin to mental assent of the Gospel by adults IMO.  Understanding their coming judgment in hell if they do not turn from their previous ideas about God or the meaning of life or why they are here is a wholly different story. What idea about God would a child have apart from whatever their parents idea is? All a child's opinions are adopted from the parents or adult influences until puberty (or the jewish age of accountability) hint, hint. Which also happened to be about the age our Lord became Spiritually self-aware. I have never met any child prior to puberty that understood repentance. Especially those talked into "inviting Jesus in the hearts" prior to puberty, they get it the least by enlarge IMO.

In addition there are plenty of examples of men and women (younger and older) receiving Christ in the NT. However, there is not one single example of child of any age receiving Christ in the NT and obviously children were around the Lord at times:

Mark 10:13, And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
14, But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
15, Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
16, And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

That is it! no- go and sin no more; no- your sins be forgiven thee, no- thy faith have saved thee. You know, the things our Lord would tell every adult that came to Him and believed. Jesus simply hugged the children and blessed them. I highlighted in red why. Heaven will be full of children IMO. Will they rule and reign and receive all the promises that the saved will - Most likely not but they will not be in hell.

Nor are there any examples of the mentally incompetent receiving Christ either. These omissions are for a reason IMO.

If a person is of a sound mind after puberty, they are without excuse (Rom 1:20), anything before that or the mentally disabled are "with" excuse IMO.

Sure, sure God can do anything He wants and it would be right. BUT, does He teach that in His Word? Does He teach us merciless cruelty to the mentally weak and helpless?

[DaveW]

I look forward to the continued discussion, as this is a matter for which I struggle to reconcile the various truths involved.

I think there is no doubt that there is only one way of salvation - through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ by grace.

There is also no doubt that "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" - there is simply no "loophole" in that statement or truth.

There is also no doubt in my mind that all are sinners by birth, from Adam and because of his sin.

This is somewhat proven by: Psalms 58:3
(3)  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Any parent knows this to be true -  a baby lies all the time - they cry as though there is something wrong, but they only want a cuddle. And we oblige them of course because they are beautiful, but there wasn't actually anything wrong. And they don't have to be taught that - they do it because they are sinners.

 

But there is also no doubt that David believed he and the child would dwell in the same place:

2 Samuel 12:21-23
(21)  Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
(22)  And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
(23)  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
 

I know some think this is just the grave that David is talking about but I don't buy that - that would not be a comfort to him, but to see his child with the Lord would definitely be a comfort. And of course the various verses that NN posted also indicate likewise.

 

NOW THEN, how these two sets of seemingly opposing truths fit together I do not know nor understand, but I somehow feel that God's grace and mercy is involved........

As I said, I look forward to the discussion, but I doubt that I will take further part - I will read with interest......

(And Mike - I feel that your post against Pastor Markle was bordeline offensive.....)

[Pastor Scott Markle]

9 hours ago, wretched said:

In addition there are plenty of examples of men and women (younger and older) receiving Christ in the NT. However, there is not one single example of child of any age receiving Christ in the NT and obviously children were around the Lord at times:

Mark 10:13, And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
14, But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
15, Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
16, And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

That is it!

Brother Wretched,

I certainly recognize that there is a time period wherein little children (and the "mentally incompetent," as you put it) do indeed lack a clear understanding and even lack an ability for clear understanding.  However, I believe that you may have both understated your case at one point and overstated your case at another point.

The understatement - In the passage that you quoted, our Lord Jesus Christ declared the following in Mark 10:15 - "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein."  This is a portion of your quote that you did NOT emphasize, yet it also speaks concerning children and receiving the Lord.  Herein our Lord indicates that adults, if they are to "receive the kingdom of God," MUST receive it "as a little child;" or else the adults shall NOT be able to receive and enter therein.  Now, this seems to imply that "a little child," since his is that standard even for how an adult must receive, doe indeed have the ability to receive.  So then, how does anyone RECEIVE the Savior in order to enter the kingdom of God?  If believe that the teaching of John 1:12-13 & John 3:21 clearly indicate that it is by spiritual regeneration through saving faith.

The overstatement - Yet let us not simply "logic out" that even little children at some point have the ability to believe on Christ.  Rather, let us hear our Lord's own word on the subject from Matthew 18:1-6 - "At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?  And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.  Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.  And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.  But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."  Therefore, it appears that there IS an example in the New Testament of "little ones" believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, and that in the same context wherein our Lord spoke about the need to be "converted and become as little children" in order to "enter into the kingdom of heaven." 

[wretched]

2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Wretched,

I certainly recognize that there is a time period wherein little children (and the "mentally incompetent," as you put it) do indeed lack a clear understanding and even lack an ability for clear understanding.  However, I believe that you may have both understated your case at one point and overstated your case at another point.

The understatement - In the passage that you quoted, our Lord Jesus Christ declared the following in Mark 10:15 - "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein."  This is a portion of your quote that you did NOT emphasize, yet it also speaks concerning children and receiving the Lord.  Herein our Lord indicates that adults, if they are to "receive the kingdom of God," MUST receive it "as a little child;" or else the adults shall NOT be able to receive and enter therein.  Now, this seems to imply that "a little child," since his is that standard even for how an adult must receive, doe indeed have the ability to receive.  So then, how does anyone RECEIVE the Savior in order to enter the kingdom of God?  If believe that the teaching of John 1:12-13 & John 3:21 clearly indicate that it is by spiritual regeneration through saving faith.

The overstatement - Yet let us not simply "logic out" that even little children at some point have the ability to believe on Christ.  Rather, let us hear our Lord's own word on the subject from Matthew 18:1-6 - "At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?  And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.  Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.  And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.  But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."  Therefore, it appears that there IS an example in the New Testament of "little ones" believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, and that in the same context wherein our Lord spoke about the need to be "converted and become as little children" in order to "enter into the kingdom of heaven." 

There in lies the disagreement Bro Scott. You read these passages with the belief that the Lord is referring to them all as already receiving Him as Savior, individually at some point in their past. I see nothing in these texts or any other that indicate that in regards to children. 

I read these passages with the belief that the Lord is discussing them from the standpoint that they already have this faith and knowledge built in at birth therefore making them not condemned until a point in age and seduction by the world that this pure childlike faith in God "changes" in their hearts. At that point, they can truly repent and be converted or die in their sins.

Difficult to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt either way, I suppose.

My premise is that a given or borrowed opinion is never your own therefore no repentance is necessary. It boils down to repentance being a change of heart but the Lord refers to these children as already possessing a heart for the true God so what could they repent from?

The Lord does state that the child's faith is the standard by which saving faith for adults is judged IMO. This is the purest form and without possessing that purest form of undoubted faith in the Lord, an accountable person cannot be saved.

I include the mentally deficient with children in that most unfortunates like this have the minds of children at various degrees.

It is a tough one, no doubt but I will prayerfully read your study as NN stated also.

[heartstrings]

On 10/3/2016 at 9:21 AM, Invicta said:

At what point then, does an infant become a sinner?

Maybe something like, when little Jonny tries to take something off the coffee table, Mama says "no, no" (Law), but when Jonny sees Mama's head is turned, sneaks his hand over and does it anyway?(Sin)

On 10/4/2016 at 7:23 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Wretched,

I certainly recognize that there is a time period wherein little children (and the "mentally incompetent," as you put it) do indeed lack a clear understanding and even lack an ability for clear understanding.  However, I believe that you may have both understated your case at one point and overstated your case at another point.

The understatement - In the passage that you quoted, our Lord Jesus Christ declared the following in Mark 10:15 - "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein."  This is a portion of your quote that you did NOT emphasize, yet it also speaks concerning children and receiving the Lord.  Herein our Lord indicates that adults, if they are to "receive the kingdom of God," MUST receive it "as a little child;" or else the adults shall NOT be able to receive and enter therein.  Now, this seems to imply that "a little child," since his is that standard even for how an adult must receive, doe indeed have the ability to receive.  So then, how does anyone RECEIVE the Savior in order to enter the kingdom of God?  If believe that the teaching of John 1:12-13 & John 3:21 clearly indicate that it is by spiritual regeneration through saving faith.

The overstatement - Yet let us not simply "logic out" that even little children at some point have the ability to believe on Christ.  Rather, let us hear our Lord's own word on the subject from Matthew 18:1-6 - "At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?  And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.  Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.  And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.  But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."  Therefore, it appears that there IS an example in the New Testament of "little ones" believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, and that in the same context wherein our Lord spoke about the need to be "converted and become as little children" in order to "enter into the kingdom of heaven." 

Yes

[heartstrings]

On 10/3/2016 at 7:41 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Wayne,

I know that this "quick post" will probably stir up some trouble.  However, I believe that the above is a grammatically and contextually wrong interpretation for Romans 7:9.  Yet for me to handle that particular matter at this time in the course of this thread would be for me to "rush ahead" in the organized purpose which I intend for the thread.  As the thread proceeds unto the appropriate point, I will engage this matter.  Is that acceptable?

Romans 7:9  

For- "because"

I- "I"

was- "existed"

alive- "spiritually alive" or "not dead"(cannot be speaking of physical because he is still physically alive)

without- "in the absence of"

the law  "the law"

once: " at one time in the past; formerly:"

but   "on the contrary; yet:...."

when the commandment came, This is what we need explained: WHEN did the "commandment" "come" and WHERE did it "come" from

sin- we all should know what that is

 revived- "to give new strength or energy to"

. , and I died.- (again: this cannot be speaking of physical death)

 

Looks pretty simple to me brother.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

22 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

 revived- "to give new strength or energy to"

Or, is it:

revived - "to live again; to give strength or energy unto again (anew)."

If the meaning of the word "revived" includes the idea of "again," then whatever was "revived" also existed before.

Actually, the definitional (and thus, grammatical) meaning of this verb seems pretty simple to me also.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle

[heartstrings]

22 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Or, is it:

revived - "to live again; to give strength or energy unto again (anew)."

If the meaning of the word "revived" includes the idea of "again," then whatever was "revived" also existed before.

Actually, the definitional (and thus, grammatical) meaning of this verb seems pretty simple to me also.

Something with "renewed energy" must already exist as well.  So what are you getting at?

[heartstrings]

Ok, maybe you're saying something like "sin existed in me, but was "dead", but when the "commandment came" sin "came alive again"? If so, I guess that's plausible but it's not much difference from the way I understand it. I believe we are all born with a SIN NATURE. But I think we can both agree that little kids are in innocence until they begin to actually  CHOOSE  to sin; correct? Because I certainly don't believe the Calvinistic stuff, namely that God "elected" some babies for Heaven (and by default, others for Hell).

[Pastor Scott Markle]

8 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

Something with "renewed energy" must already exist as well.  So what are you getting at?

Brother Wayne,

In order to answer that question, I would be required to present my entire explanation for Romans 7:8-9 concerning both grammar and context.  Yet at the present time that entire explanation has not been typed out.  Thus I must request patience as I move the thread discussion forward unto that point.  Is that acceptable?

[heartstrings]

Yes

[Pastor Scott Markle]

To those who may be interested,

With the following posting, I wish to present some thoughts concerning the extent of sinfulness for a spiritually lost individual.  I do not intend for this posting to engage the question concerning when an individual is first considered a spiritually lost individual before God.  Rather, I simply wish to present Biblical truth concerning what it means for a spiritually lost individual to be lost, at whatever point it would be Biblically legitimate for that individual to be considered as spiritually lost.

_________________________________________

I believe that the various characteristics of sinfulness for a spiritually lost individual can be classified under two primary categories.  I believe that these two primary category could be described as - (1) The "Literal" Condition of Sinfulness in the Nature of the Lost, and (2) The "Legal" Position of Sinfulness in the Viewpoint of God.  Furthermore, I believe that for each characteristic of sinfulness which could be classified under one primary category, there is a corresponding characteristic of sinfulness which could be classified under the other primary category.  Indeed, I would present such as follows:

The "Literal" Condition of Sinfulness                                                                               The "Legal" Position of Sinfulness

1a.  A sinner by spiritual nature, being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins                          ----->    

                                                                                                                                     1b.  Unrighteous in God's sight, being an offense unto His holy nature

2a.  Spiritually filthy in spirit and soul, corrupted by the desperate wickedness of selfish lust   ----->     

                                                                                                                                     2b.  Spiritually guilty before God, as a criminal against His authority.

3a.  Spiritually bound under sin's mastery, blinded in heart and mind by sin's darkness           ----->     

                                                                                                                                    3b.  Spiritually bound under God's wrath, which grows in fury with each sin

4a.  Spiritually separated from any fellowship with the Lord God                                               ----->     

                                                                                                                                    4b.  Spiritually condemned by the just judgment of the Lord God

5a.  Lost in sin with no ability to deliver one's self                                                                      ----->     

                                                                                                                                    5b.  An enemy of God with no hope to defend one's self

 

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us," made a way of eternal salvation through His only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. (See Ephesians 2:4)

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)

Even so, I believe that the various elements of eternal salvation through faith in Christ can also be classified under two primary categories.  I believe that these two primary category could be described as - (1) The "Legal" Position before God in the Gift of Eternal Salvation, and (2) The "Literal" Condition of Spirit in the Gift of Eternal Salvation.  Furthermore, I also believe that for each element of eternal salvation which could be classified under one primary category, there is a corresponding element of salvation which could be classified under the other primary category.  Finally, I believe that each element of eternal salvation also corresponds to a characteristic of sinfulness as God's spiritual solution to that characteristic of sinfulness.  Indeed, I would present such as follows:
 

The "Legal" Position in Salvation                                                                               The "Literal" Condition in Salvation

1a.  The Imputation of Christ's righteousness to the individual's account before God      ----->     

                                                                                                                                    1b.  The Regeneration of the believer's spirit after the righteousness of God

2a.  Spiritually forgiven by God the Father of all disobedience against His authority       ----->     

                                                                                                                                    2b.  Spiritually cleansed by Christ's blood of all filthiness in spirit

3a.  Spiritually propitiated from God's wrath by Christ's sacrificial death                          ----->     

                                                                                                                                    3b.  Spiritually redeemed from sin's mastery by Christ's sacrificial death

4a.  Spiritually justified by the just judgment of the Lord God                                           ----->     

                                                                                                                                    4b.  Spiritually reconciled unto the fellowship of the Lord God

5a.  Adopted as a child of God and a joint-heir with Christ                                               ----->     

                                                                                                                                    5b.  Sanctified as a child of light and a minister for the Lord

 

Even so, I believe that if any given characteristic of sinfulness can be legitimately (Biblically) attributed unto an individual, then the corresponding element of eternal salvation MUST by spiritual necessity be administered unto that individual if that individual is to experience an eternal at home with God.  Furthermore, I believe that any given element of eternal salvation is ONLY administered by God the Father in God the Son.

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

Edited October 6, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle
grammar & layout

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Biblical Verses concerning the Universal Sinfulness of Mankind

The following listing of verses employ such words as “all,” “every,” and “none” in order to reveal truth that is universal concerning mankind as a whole.  Even so, this raises the question whether these words “all,” “every,” and “none” actually mean “all,” “every,” and “none” in these contexts.  Furthermore, in relation to the accountability of babies, this raises the question whether these words “all,” “every,” and “none” encompass the whole of mankind, including babies.

1.  Being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins.

2 Corinthians 5:14 – “For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead.”

2.  Being unrighteous in God’s sight.

Romans 3:10 – “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

3.  Being spiritually filthy in spirit and soul.    

Ecclesiastes 7:20 – “For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.”

Isaiah 53:6 – “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”

Jeremiah 17:9 – “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”

Romans 3:12-18 – “They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.  Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: their feet are swift to shed blood: destruction and misery are in their ways: and the way of peace have they not known: there is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Romans 3:23 – “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”

Romans 5:12 – “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”

Ephesians 2:3 – “Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”

Psalm 58:3 – “The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.”

4.  Being spiritually guilty before God.

Romans 3:19 – “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.”

Galatians 3:10 – “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.”

James 2:10 – “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”

5.  Being spiritually bound under sin's mastery.     

Romans 3:9 – “What then?  Are we better than they?  No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin.”

Galatians 3:22 – “But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.”

6.  Being spiritually bound under God's wrath.

Ephesians 2:3 – “Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”

John 3:36 – “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

7.  Being spiritually separated from any fellowship with the Lord God.

Romans 3:11 – “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.”

John 14:6 – “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”    

8.  Being spiritually condemned by the just judgment of the Lord God.

Romans 5:18 – “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”

9.  Being lost in sin and an enemy of God with no ability to deliver or defend one's self.

Romans 3:20 – “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

Galatians 3:11 – “But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.”

Edited October 21, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle

[John Young]

11 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Biblical Verses concerning the Universal Sinfulness of Mankind

The following listing of verses employ such words as “all,” “every,” and “none” in order to reveal truth that is universal concerning mankind as a whole.  Even so, this raises the question whether these words “all,” “every,” and “none” actually mean “all,” “every,” and “none” in these contexts.  Furthermore, in relation to the accountability of babies, this raises the question whether these words “all,” “every,” and “none” encompass the whole of mankind, including babies.

Just to clarify your current position,

A. Do you believe, from the time of conception, "original sin" is upon all and that this sin is already fully active in the spirit soul and body? Not just in/on the flesh?

B. If so, Are all from conception completely dead in body soul and spirit? If not then at what level and why?

C. If so, Are all conceived people, dying before they have knowledge of their condition, in Hell? If not who gets a pass and why?

As you are aware, my view is that sin is in the world and has it's start in the flesh of all people and that sin infiltrates into the soul and spirit from the time the soul knows to do right but chooses to do wrong. 

I'm sure you'll answer in your study but those are the question I have as the study progresses. Thanks!

Edited October 22, 2016 by John Young
To clarify my questions.

[DaveW]

1 hour ago, John Young said:

Just to clarify your current position,

Do you believe, from the time of conception, "original sin" is upon all and that this sin is already fully active in the spirit soul and body? Not just in/on the flesh?

A. If so, Are all from conception completely dead in body soul and spirit? If not then at what level?

B. If so, Are all conceived people, dying before they have knowledge of their condition, in Hell? If not who gets a pass and why?

As you are aware, my view is that sin is in the world and has it's start in the flesh of all people and that sin infiltrates into the soul and spirit from the time the soul knows to do right but chooses to do wrong. 

I'm sure you'll answer in your study but those are the question I have as the study progresses. Thanks!

John, if I can intercept these questions:

Your first is not well worded - to include "body" in this is strange, because at conception a body becomes alive. So "No" would be the answer to that particualr aspect of the question. Also, the way you have worded it sounds like the way calvinists use the term "dead" when talking about being dead in sin - it implies "total depravity", which I know that Pastor Markle does not hold to. You might want to figure out a better way to ask that question, because I don't think you mean either of these things the way I am reading them. Of course it may just be me reading it wrong.

Your second is actually the point that Pastor Markle is addressing with this thread, but he is doing so by building a structured argument, meaning that he has to establish certain things along the way. If you give him time to build his structure, I think this will be answered.

Just my thoughts.

Dave.