What must I do to be saved?

[coc333]

Mr. Miller,

I have made every attempt in our discourse to be kind and civil with you. I have presented you with scripture to support what I have said and I have done so in love. I have not attacked you nor made any statements with any ill intentions. You have repeatedly refused to answer the questions I pose and now you attack me personally. I am sorry that you feel that you need to behave in such a manner. I will not return your treatment in kind.

Again, I have provide numerous passages that support what I have said. The passages clearly show that Iam not simply spouting off my personal opinion but am standing on the scriptures. I have twice shown you passages that clearly (word for word) refutes your statements.

1. You said that the Bible does not say that "he that believes and is baptized will be saved." In response, I provided Mark 16:16 which says "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." Who am I to believe, you or the word of God?
2. You said that we are saved by faith only. In response I provided James 2:24 which clearly states that we are not justified (saved) by faith only.

Sir, you have not even made an effort to explain why your words clearly contradict the word of God. I warn you that you should be very cautious in contradicting the word of God.

I have not earned the right to have my questions answered on here? Sir, I am not here to earn anything from you or anyone else. I am here to discuss the Bible. If you wish to have an open and honest discussion on this or any other subject then I will be glad to do so. If, on the other hand, you simply wish to ignore what is before you and attack me personally, I will wait until someone else wishes to discuss these matters.

I do ask that you examine the passages that have been provided. They say what they say.

In Christ,

Robert

[kevinmiller]

I'm sorry that you feel I'm being uncivil if I was uncivil. You also refuse to answer clear Scriptures that state it is by faith alone and merely reply with verses that include baptism in the picture. Obviously, there is a contradiction but you are unwilling to look at that contradiction and study out the verses to find out how they can be reconciled. There are verses saying two different things, at face value. However, you only post that contradiction without dealing with the other side of the issue.

You are not here to discuss the Bible. You are here to win us over to your faith + works salvation. If that is not the case, then kindly explain why you have not posted in any other thread besides this one, which you yourself started? Not only that, but you join up with the username "coc," which obviously stands for Church of Christ. You don't have the right for me to answer you when you come here in order to start a thread where you can challenge our beliefs and try to convert us. What right have you earned for us to respond to you? Maybe it's being influenced by family culture, maybe by Korean culture, I don't know, but I believe that a person has to earn the right to be accepted and respected and not expect everyone to treat them as if they have the right to be heard when you don't know them from Adam. And add on to the fact that you are coming to challenge us. So yes, I again have serious doubts about your motives for coming here and for engaging in this debate.

[trc123]

coc333,

Are there any other ways in which one must work to obey God in order for their salvation to be effectual?
Things like read Scripture X number of times per day? Pray X number of times in a week?

You've moved from your first post of faith in Christ and baptism to now also including many other ways one must obey in order to be saved.

I'm confused, please clarify for me. Thank you.

[coc333]

coc333,

Are there any other ways in which one must work to obey God in order for their salvation to be effectual?
Things like read Scripture X number of times per day? Pray X number of times in a week?

You've moved from your first post of faith in Christ and baptism to now also including many other ways one must obey in order to be saved.

I'm confused, please clarify for me. Thank you.

Hello again trc,

God presented a plan of salvation that included His part (Grace) and our part (Obedience). If I want to be saved, then I must:

1. Believe (Heb 11:6; John 3:16) which said faith comes from hearing the word of God (Rom 10:17)
2. Repent of my sins (Acts 3:19; Luke 13:3)
3. Confess Christ (Matt 10:32-33; Acts 8:37)
4. Be baptized (immersed) for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38; 22:16; Mark 16:16; Gal 3:27 etc)

At this point I come in contact with the Blood of Christ and am added to His church (Acts 2:47)

This is a simple and easy plan that God has put forth. There are some who say that it is complicated but where is the complication? There are some who say that it is "working our way into heaven" in the sense that we are trying to merit our salvation. Again, I state that there is nothing that you nor I can ever do that will merit our salvation. NOTHING! But, again, I submit that we still must obey. Matt 7:21ff teaches that we must obey.

Now, if you are asking do we have to live in accordance with the Father's will once we have obeyed the Gospel, then I say yes. Certainly I can not obey the Gospel and then live like the devil and expect God to be pleased with me or accept me.

Must I pray? The Bible certainly teaches that I must. (1 Thes 5:17 etc) But, why would I not want to avail myself of such a wonderful blessing as to be able to speak to God?

Must I read the Bible? Of course, I must. 2 Tim 2:15; Psalm 119:97; Josh. 1:8 all teach us that we are to study and meditate upon the word of God. If the faith that is required comes from the word, then how else would we obtain that faith?

Trc, I think that you might be thinking that what I am saying is that the Bible teaches that we must do X number of things in order to earn our salvation. I AM NOT! We, again, can never earn our salvation. But, we must still obey the will of God.

None of this is complicated.

I would like to thank you again for your post. I hope that you will post again if you have any further questions.

In Christ,

Robert

[coc333]

I'm sorry that you feel I'm being uncivil if I was uncivil. You also refuse to answer clear Scriptures that state it is by faith alone and merely reply with verses that include baptism in the picture. Obviously, there is a contradiction but you are unwilling to look at that contradiction and study out the verses to find out how they can be reconciled. There are verses saying two different things, at face value. However, you only post that contradiction without dealing with the other side of the issue.

You are not here to discuss the Bible. You are here to win us over to your faith + works salvation. If that is not the case, then kindly explain why you have not posted in any other thread besides this one, which you yourself started? Not only that, but you join up with the username "coc," which obviously stands for Church of Christ. You don't have the right for me to answer you when you come here in order to start a thread where you can challenge our beliefs and try to convert us. What right have you earned for us to respond to you? Maybe it's being influenced by family culture, maybe by Korean culture, I don't know, but I believe that a person has to earn the right to be accepted and respected and not expect everyone to treat them as if they have the right to be heard when you don't know them from Adam. And add on to the fact that you are coming to challenge us. So yes, I again have serious doubts about your motives for coming here and for engaging in this debate.

Mr. Miller,

You "apoligize" and then you attack me again. That is hardly an apology. Sir, if you wish to have an honest and open discussion of the Bible, please let me know. If you wish to continue to act as you have, then please do not waste either of our time. I will no longer respond to this type of message.

I leave you with these kind words: Go back and look at the passages that I have provided. They are easy and clear and they are the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16).

In Christ,

Robert

[kevinmiller]

Thanks for your final remarks. I am done here, as well. I hope that you will either become a contributing member here or seek a different board to convert. Most of us here are perfectly accepting of differing views in debate. However, when people come here with the sole purpose of conversion to a certain viewpoint, it is not so welcomed.

[lettheredeemedsayso]

I'm sorry that you feel I'm being uncivil if I was uncivil. You also refuse to answer clear Scriptures that state it is by faith alone and merely reply with verses that include baptism in the picture. Obviously, there is a contradiction but you are unwilling to look at that contradiction and study out the verses to find out how they can be reconciled. There are verses saying two different things, at face value. However, you only post that contradiction without dealing with the other side of the issue.

You are not here to discuss the Bible. You are here to win us over to your faith + works salvation. If that is not the case, then kindly explain why you have not posted in any other thread besides this one, which you yourself started? Not only that, but you join up with the username "coc," which obviously stands for Church of Christ. You don't have the right for me to answer you when you come here in order to start a thread where you can challenge our beliefs and try to convert us. What right have you earned for us to respond to you? Maybe it's being influenced by family culture, maybe by Korean culture, I don't know, but I believe that a person has to earn the right to be accepted and respected and not expect everyone to treat them as if they have the right to be heard when you don't know them from Adam. And add on to the fact that you are coming to challenge us. So yes, I again have serious doubts about your motives for coming here and for engaging in this debate.

If our salvation is determined by our works than why did Jesus die?
The message from the beginning of time was that there was no one worthy to be our sacrifice. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. That is why Jesus the Spotless Lamb of God came to be our propitiation(our substitute). The beautiful picture that God gave us when He asked Abraham to take his only son and offer him as a sacrifice. God didn't really want Abraham to sacrifice his son but rather it was a test of Abaham's faith and it became a beautiful picture of what was to come. And just like Abraham told Isaac all those many years prior to the death of Christ. "God will provide the lamb" And that is just what He did!!!

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had recieved the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

[coc333]

If our salvation is determined by our works than why did Jesus die?
The message from the beginning of time was that there was no one worthy to be our sacrifice. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. That is why Jesus the Spotless Lamb of God came to be our propitiation(our substitute). The beautiful picture that God gave us when He asked Abraham to take his only son and offer him as a sacrifice. God didn't really want Abraham to sacrifice his son but rather it was a test of Abaham's faith and it became a beautiful picture of what was to come. And just like Abraham told Isaac all those many years prior to the death of Christ. "God will provide the lamb" And that is just what He did!!!

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had recieved the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

[trc123]

cos333,

I'm not sure you'll get any disagreement that once a person believes (by faith) on the Lord Jesus Christ that in obedience they should be Baptized. The HUGE disagreement would be that the act of (as you've said it) "getting wet" has nothing to do with God imputing to the believer the righteousness of Christ. That happens at the moment of believing on Christ, then the outward evidence and testimony of this belief would be the believer following the Lord Jesus Christ in baptism.

Concerning an explanation for Act 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." and other related verses. I don't find these to be troublesome in the least.

Let's you and I consider taking a trip together. We are going to travel from our current location to China for the Olympics. You tell me sure, but when we get to the plane you hesitate to get on the plane. I ask you if you believe the plane will get us from our location to China. You respond yes, you certainly do. You've seen others get on. I ask you to get on the plane, but you still will not get on the plane. You can tell me all day you "believe" the plane will get you to the destination; you see you have this knowledge in your intellect; but until you have the kind of belief to actually place your person on that plane, you don't have real heart belief that the plane will carry you to your destination. I believe this is a similar way in which one must "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" for salvation.

Now, let's continue our discussion. Finally we've spoken about the plane, how it can get you there safely and really will do the job. I say, my friend cos333 if you will get on the plane and take your seat then the plane will take us safely to our destination. You agree, get on the plane and sit down in your seat and we eventually arrive in China safe and sound. Did the sitting down in this example get us to our destination? Or did the believing in the heart and getting on the plane get us to our destination? Certainly when you get on the plane, you could choose not to follow the rules and not obey the captain and the plane will still be able to get you to your destination.....but you would not have obeyed and the trip certainly would not be pleasant.

This is as simple as it gets. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Good News and the Good News is looking to the completed work of Christ, his blood sacrifice for our sins and his atoning work....how do I lay hold on that; I have heart belief (not just head knowledge) and I place my soul in his hands. Is it possible to not follow Christ in baptism, yes..... I agree that would be disobeying God if one has the opportunity and does not get baptized; but it is not a condition for God making his salvation effectual for you. Will your fellowship, walk and "Christ following" be blessed and is that what God wants for you and is it best for you, NO....but this is true of each area that the believer may disobey God in after salvation; not just baptism.

Remember I John......
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Also, I'm curious as to which dispensation you believe we are currently in; and If you are a dispensationalist, what are the dispensations that God has worked through from the beginning of human history?

Thank you, TRC

[coc333]

cos333,

I'm not sure you'll get any disagreement that once a person believes (by faith) on the Lord Jesus Christ that in obedience they should be Baptized. The HUGE disagreement would be that the act of (as you've said it) "getting wet" has nothing to do with God imputing to the believer the righteousness of Christ. That happens at the moment of believing on Christ, then the outward evidence and testimony of this belief would be the believer following the Lord Jesus Christ in baptism.

Concerning an explanation for Act 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." and other related verses. I don't find these to be troublesome in the least.

Let's you and I consider taking a trip together. We are going to travel from our current location to China for the Olympics. You tell me sure, but when we get to the plane you hesitate to get on the plane. I ask you if you believe the plane will get us from our location to China. You respond yes, you certainly do. You've seen others get on. I ask you to get on the plane, but you still will not get on the plane. You can tell me all day you "believe" the plane will get you to the destination; you see you have this knowledge in your intellect; but until you have the kind of belief to actually place your person on that plane, you don't have real heart belief that the plane will carry you to your destination. I believe this is a similar way in which one must "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" for salvation.

Now, let's continue our discussion. Finally we've spoken about the plane, how it can get you there safely and really will do the job. I say, my friend cos333 if you will get on the plane and take your seat then the plane will take us safely to our destination. You agree, get on the plane and sit down in your seat and we eventually arrive in China safe and sound. Did the sitting down in this example get us to our destination? Or did the believing in the heart and getting on the plane get us to our destination? Certainly when you get on the plane, you could choose not to follow the rules and not obey the captain and the plane will still be able to get you to your destination.....but you would not have obeyed and the trip certainly would not be pleasant.

This is as simple as it gets. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Good News and the Good News is looking to the completed work of Christ, his blood sacrifice for our sins and his atoning work....how do I lay hold on that; I have heart belief (not just head knowledge) and I place my soul in his hands. Is it possible to not follow Christ in baptism, yes..... I agree that would be disobeying God if one has the opportunity and does not get baptized; but it is not a condition for God making his salvation effectual for you. Will your fellowship, walk and "Christ following" be blessed and is that what God wants for you and is it best for you, NO....but this is true of each area that the believer may disobey God in after salvation; not just baptism.

Remember I John......
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Also, I'm curious as to which dispensation you believe we are currently in; and If you are a dispensationalist, what are the dispensations that God has worked through from the beginning of human history?

Thank you, TRC

trc123,

Thank you again for writing me. You show yourself to be a very polite person. Thank you.

Now, on to our discussion. The problem is that it is not that we "should" be baptized once we believe but that we "must" be baptized if we want to be saved. We can not get around that fact.

In Acts 2:37 the Jews there wanted to know what they had to do to be saved. Peter responded in 2:38 that they had to "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins..." Notice that he did not say repent and oh, you should be baptized as and outward sign of something that already happened inside of you. He said repent and be baptized. That is a command.

What about Saul (Paul)? He was on his way to Damascus to persecute the Jews. Christ appears before him (Acts 9 and 22). In Acts 22:10 Saul asked Jesus what he must do to be saved. What did Jesus tell him? He told him to go into the city and wait and it will be told him what he must do. Now, at this point Saul clearly believes because he goes into the city. Jesus then sends Ananias to him. Saul has been praying and fasting for 3 days (Acts 9:9-11). What did Ananias tell him when he went to him? Did he say, stop worrying Saul, you have already believed, you have fasted and prayed for three days. You are ok. NO! He told him to arise and be baptized... Why? Because that is what was required of him. It was not a suggestion. It was a command.

Now, what about the Philippian Jailer? In Acts 16:30, he asked Paul what he must do to be saved. What was his response? He told him that he must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. (VS 31) Now, you might say, well he did not say be baptized. But, if we read further we find something very interesting. Verse 32 says that they taught him the word of God. Remember what Romans 10:17 says? It says that faith comes from hearing the word of God. So, they tell him to believe and then teach him what he needs to know to have faith and what does he then do? Verse 33 tells us that he was baptized. He was told that he must believe and then was taught so that he would have the proper faith and he was baptized and at that point he was added to the Lord's church (Acts 2:47).

These are easy examples to follow and they all teach that we must be baptized. We have many other passages that teach the necessity of baptism. Again, Romans 6:3-6; Gal 3:27; Mark 16:16 etc. These passages do not teach us that we should be baptized if we would like but that we must be baptized if we want to be saved.

The illistration that you provided just does not apply to the need for baptism.

There are three biblical dispensations. The patriaricle, mosaic and Christian. We are now under the Christian dispensation. We will be under that dispensation until Christ comes to get His people and the earth is burt up with fire.

In Christ,

Robert

[trc123]

trc123,

Thank you again for writing me. You show yourself to be a very polite person. Thank you.

Robert,

You are welcome. I find it best to be civil to people when attempting to show them the truth of God's only way of Salvation. You see, as you are adding to the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ by saying one must believe baptism is a work we must engage in as a response to a command from God for salvation; I completely believe you to be in a lost condition and without the atoning blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, I on the other hand have believed (by faith) on the Lord Jesus Christ and his finished work only. Then I was baptized that same evening in a heart of obedience to Christ, knowing that I was following the Lord's example and identifying with the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Let's just suppose that if you are wrong...........your soul is lost as you've added something to the finished work of Christ on the cross, thus making God a liar and taking away from the complete sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. While, if I'm wrong, (according to your explanation of salvation) I have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and I have been baptized in obedience to God (whether I realized it was needed for salvation or simply to obey and be in right fellowship with God) and thus my error would not be as grave nor damning to my soul as your error.

It was not my intention to be harsh or critical of you and I've enjoyed our verbal discourse and discussion of the Scriptures.

May God shine the light of the truth in your heart,

TRC

[lettheredeemedsayso]

If our salvation is determined by our works than why did Jesus die?
The message from the beginning of time was that there was no one worthy to be our sacrifice. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. That is why Jesus the Spotless Lamb of God came to be our propitiation(our substitute). The beautiful picture that God gave us when He asked Abraham to take his only son and offer him as a sacrifice. God didn't really want Abraham to sacrifice his son but rather it was a test of Abaham's faith and it became a beautiful picture of what was to come. And just like Abraham told Isaac all those many years prior to the death of Christ. "God will provide the lamb" And that is just what He did!!!

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had recieved the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Greetings! Thank you for posting.

First, to answer your first question with a question, does Christ dying mean that we are totally free from obeying? It seams that your argument is that since Christ died (obeying His father's will) that we are then free not to obey the Father's will. Is that your argument? If so, there are numerous passages that refute such a view. After all, Matt 7:21ff teaches us that is is those who do His will that will enter heaven some day.

As to the idea that we can do no works that relate to salvation, I ask you: Why did Paul tell the Philippians to "work out their own salvation...?" Yes, he was writing to the church which means that they were already saved but, if we must work out our own salvation after we are saved (which clearly refutes the false teaching of once saved always saved) why should we think that we have nothing that is required of us in order to be saved? Again, I also submit to you that faith is a work (Eph 2:10).

I would also like to note that works of obedience is not the same thing as works of merit. Read the books of Romans and Hebrews. Read the entire NT and we can clearly see that.

I am glad that you quoted Heb 11:17. Notice what it says..."By faith Abraham offered..." By Faith Abraham did what God had told him to do. Read that entire chapter and we find the same thing said over and over again...By faith someone obeyed God. Verse 4 says that by faith Abal offered... These are our examples, by Faith they obeyed God. When we obey the Gospel we are acting upon our belief. God has provided us with His word which tells us what we must do in order to be saved. If we have faith, then certainly we will do what He has told us to do.

I will ask you the same questions that I asked before; question which I have yet to recieve and answer for.

1. If I am not required to be baptized, then please explain Acts 2:38?
2. If I am not required to be baptized, the please explain Acts 9:9-11; 22:16?
3. If I am not required to be baptized, the please explain Rom 6:3-6?
4. If I am not required to be baptized, the please explain Gal 3:27?
5. And while we are at it, If I am not required to be baptized, please explain every conversion that we find within the book of Acts? Again and again we see baptism. Why, if it is not required?

I must obey God and in doing so I earn nothing! Luke 17:10

[coc333]

Robert,

You are welcome. I find it best to be civil to people when attempting to show them the truth of God's only way of Salvation. You see, as you are adding to the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ by saying one must believe baptism is a work we must engage in as a response to a command from God for salvation; I completely believe you to be in a lost condition and without the atoning blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, I on the other hand have believed (by faith) on the Lord Jesus Christ and his finished work only. Then I was baptized that same evening in a heart of obedience to Christ, knowing that I was following the Lord's example and identifying with the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Let's just suppose that if you are wrong...........your soul is lost as you've added something to the finished work of Christ on the cross, thus making God a liar and taking away from the complete sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. While, if I'm wrong, (according to your explanation of salvation) I have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and I have been baptized in obedience to God (whether I realized it was needed for salvation or simply to obey and be in right fellowship with God) and thus my error would not be as grave nor damning to my soul as your error.

It was not my intention to be harsh or critical of you and I've enjoyed our verbal discourse and discussion of the Scriptures.

May God shine the light of the truth in your heart,

TRC

trc,

You are welcome. You have not offended me in the least bit with your views that I would be lost if I were wrong. I assure you that the Bible does in fact teach that one must be baptized. I have provided scriptures and have not heard you or anyone else here provide one bit of evidence to prove that what I have said is incorrorct.

Again I ask, if baptism is not required then please explain the following verses:
1. Acts 2:38
2. Acts 9:9-11; 22:16
3. Rom 6:3-6
4. Gal 3:27

And I could give many more but these provide enough evidence.

I must tell you that you are wrong about whether your error would be less harmful. trc, if one is not baptized for the remission of sins, then one is lost. Please, consider the passages that I have provided with an open mind.

In Christ,

Robert

[coc333]

Greetings! Thank you for posting.

First, to answer your first question with a question, does Christ dying mean that we are totally free from obeying? It seams that your argument is that since Christ died (obeying His father's will) that we are then free not to obey the Father's will. Is that your argument? If so, there are numerous passages that refute such a view. After all, Matt 7:21ff teaches us that is is those who do His will that will enter heaven some day.

As to the idea that we can do no works that relate to salvation, I ask you: Why did Paul tell the Philippians to "work out their own salvation...?" Yes, he was writing to the church which means that they were already saved but, if we must work out our own salvation after we are saved (which clearly refutes the false teaching of once saved always saved) why should we think that we have nothing that is required of us in order to be saved? Again, I also submit to you that faith is a work (Eph 2:10).

I would also like to note that works of obedience is not the same thing as works of merit. Read the books of Romans and Hebrews. Read the entire NT and we can clearly see that.

I am glad that you quoted Heb 11:17. Notice what it says..."By faith Abraham offered..." By Faith Abraham did what God had told him to do. Read that entire chapter and we find the same thing said over and over again...By faith someone obeyed God. Verse 4 says that by faith Abal offered... These are our examples, by Faith they obeyed God. When we obey the Gospel we are acting upon our belief. God has provided us with His word which tells us what we must do in order to be saved. If we have faith, then certainly we will do what He has told us to do.

I will ask you the same questions that I asked before; question which I have yet to recieve and answer for.

1. If I am not required to be baptized, then please explain Acts 2:38?
2. If I am not required to be baptized, the please explain Acts 9:9-11; 22:16?
3. If I am not required to be baptized, the please explain Rom 6:3-6?
4. If I am not required to be baptized, the please explain Gal 3:27?
5. And while we are at it, If I am not required to be baptized, please explain every conversion that we find within the book of Acts? Again and again we see baptism. Why, if it is not required?

I must obey God and in doing so I earn nothing! Luke 17:10

You are most welcome.

In answer to your statement. I never said that we are not to obey. The point is until we have the Holy Spirit empowering us we are not equipped to obey!!! The Holy Spirit doesn't indwell us until we recognize that we are sinners in need of Savior and by faith accept the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. As born again children of God we most certainly are called to good works and obedience. As far as baptism is concerned, Jesus told the thief on the cross that that day he would be there with Him paradise. No where does it say that if we die without baptism that we will be condemned but over and over it tells us if we go out into eternity without Jesus Christ as our Saviour we are condemned already.

[kevinmiller]

I'm just gonna post all of your verses here for easy reference.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I will be honest on this one and admit that I haven't quite figured out the meaning behind this outside of the possibility that for mean because of. Other than that, I'm not sure.

Acts 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

I'm not sure what this has to do with baptism but I answered it so does that suffice? :frog

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Now this poses a little problem for you as well as me. The problem is that baptism is first in this order of things, even before calling on the Lord. I suggest that further study is necessary for this verse and I will admit that I'm not sure about this one either.

Romans6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Now this one takes things a bit out of the realm in which we have been dealing. You see, I think this passage is clearly talking about the baptism of the Holy Ghost. By the Holy Ghost, we are baptized into Christ's death. I'll get into that more in a second.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Again, when we are baptized into Christ, it is speaking of Holy Ghost baptism. Now let me further explain.

In Mark 1:8 we have "I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost."
And again in Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
What are these passages saying? They seem to clearly indicate that while they were baptized with water previously, they would afterwards be baptized by the Holy Ghost, that indicating a replacement, not a conjoining.

And how is this transformation brought about, by Christ's work on the cross: Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
John baptized with water but Christ would baptize with the Holy Ghost. Interesting contrast...

But now we're stuck with two baptisms, so how do we reconcile that? Can we have baptism of the Holy Ghost and baptism of water, as well? I don't think so. Baptism of the Holy Ghost takes place at the time of salvation, right? And you say that water baptism is required for salvation. That becomes a problem when we look at Ephesians 4:5 which says "One Lord, one faith, one baptism." Okay, so we can only have one baptism. Both are in Scripture, both are in Acts. So now what do we do? Well, why don't we look at some other Scripture verses that might help us see everything in context.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Clearly, nothing that we DO could give us eternal life. Faith alone is the way to Christ. Let's look at another one:

Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

This passage is particularly interesting. We have him clearly saying that whoever believes will have forgiveness of sins. Then, the Holy Ghost falls upon them. Then they spoke in tongues, a gift not possible to the unsaved. Then, he says, why can't they be baptized since they have received the Holy Ghost just as we have. THEN, finally, they were baptized. There was clear evidence that salvation took place when they believed, well before baptism took place.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
The call in this verse indicates one who has put his faith in Christ. Whoever calls upon the Lord will be saved. That is faith and that yields salvation as this verse clearly states.

Here's one that's well known:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

How do we get eternal life? By believing in Christ. Now, it would be a pretty serious error if God was to leave off something as important as baptism if it was necessary for salvation. That would leave us totally lost. But no, God said believe and you will have everlasting life. Nothing about baptism in there.

These verses pose some problems for us then, no? We both have verses that seem to indicate one thing or another. However, we still have the issue of one baptism in a realm where there seem to be two. But is there really? My belief, based on what I understand from the passages that indicate that salvation takes place in the heart and cannot be based on any work of man, is that we are baptized with the Holy Ghost upon salvation. Our water baptism is a representation of that Holy Ghost baptism which takes place inwardly and cannot be seen by our fellow believers. Water baptism is a way to show what has taken place. Again, only one can legitimately exist and Holy Ghost baptism is the only one that isn't based on works.

Now I've taken the time to answer each verse that you posted honestly and with an open mind. I hope that you will do me the courtesy of reading my post with an open mind.