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coc333

What must I do to be saved?

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trc123,

Thank you again for writing me. You show yourself to be a very polite person. Thank you.


Robert,

You are welcome. I find it best to be civil to people when attempting to show them the truth of God's only way of Salvation. You see, as you are adding to the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ by saying one must believe baptism is a work we must engage in as a response to a command from God for salvation; I completely believe you to be in a lost condition and without the atoning blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, I on the other hand have believed (by faith) on the Lord Jesus Christ and his finished work only. Then I was baptized that same evening in a heart of obedience to Christ, knowing that I was following the Lord's example and identifying with the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Let's just suppose that if you are wrong...........your soul is lost as you've added something to the finished work of Christ on the cross, thus making God a liar and taking away from the complete sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. While, if I'm wrong, (according to your explanation of salvation) I have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and I have been baptized in obedience to God (whether I realized it was needed for salvation or simply to obey and be in right fellowship with God) and thus my error would not be as grave nor damning to my soul as your error.

It was not my intention to be harsh or critical of you and I've enjoyed our verbal discourse and discussion of the Scriptures.

May God shine the light of the truth in your heart,

TRC

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If our salvation is determined by our works than why did Jesus die?
The message from the beginning of time was that there was no one worthy to be our sacrifice. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. That is why Jesus the Spotless Lamb of God came to be our propitiation(our substitute). The beautiful picture that God gave us when He asked Abraham to take his only son and offer him as a sacrifice. God didn't really want Abraham to sacrifice his son but rather it was a test of Abaham's faith and it became a beautiful picture of what was to come. And just like Abraham told Isaac all those many years prior to the death of Christ. "God will provide the lamb" And that is just what He did!!!

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had recieved the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;


Greetings! Thank you for posting.

First, to answer your first question with a question, does Christ dying mean that we are totally free from obeying? It seams that your argument is that since Christ died (obeying His father's will) that we are then free not to obey the Father's will. Is that your argument? If so, there are numerous passages that refute such a view. After all, Matt 7:21ff teaches us that is is those who do His will that will enter heaven some day.

As to the idea that we can do no works that relate to salvation, I ask you: Why did Paul tell the Philippians to "work out their own salvation...?" Yes, he was writing to the church which means that they were already saved but, if we must work out our own salvation after we are saved (which clearly refutes the false teaching of once saved always saved) why should we think that we have nothing that is required of us in order to be saved? Again, I also submit to you that faith is a work (Eph 2:10).

I would also like to note that works of obedience is not the same thing as works of merit. Read the books of Romans and Hebrews. Read the entire NT and we can clearly see that.

I am glad that you quoted Heb 11:17. Notice what it says..."By faith Abraham offered..." By Faith Abraham did what God had told him to do. Read that entire chapter and we find the same thing said over and over again...By faith someone obeyed God. Verse 4 says that by faith Abal offered... These are our examples, by Faith they obeyed God. When we obey the Gospel we are acting upon our belief. God has provided us with His word which tells us what we must do in order to be saved. If we have faith, then certainly we will do what He has told us to do.

I will ask you the same questions that I asked before; question which I have yet to recieve and answer for.

1. If I am not required to be baptized, then please explain Acts 2:38?
2. If I am not required to be baptized, the please explain Acts 9:9-11; 22:16?
3. If I am not required to be baptized, the please explain Rom 6:3-6?
4. If I am not required to be baptized, the please explain Gal 3:27?
5. And while we are at it, If I am not required to be baptized, please explain every conversion that we find within the book of Acts? Again and again we see baptism. Why, if it is not required?

I must obey God and in doing so I earn nothing! Luke 17:10

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Robert,

You are welcome. I find it best to be civil to people when attempting to show them the truth of God's only way of Salvation. You see, as you are adding to the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ by saying one must believe baptism is a work we must engage in as a response to a command from God for salvation; I completely believe you to be in a lost condition and without the atoning blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, I on the other hand have believed (by faith) on the Lord Jesus Christ and his finished work only. Then I was baptized that same evening in a heart of obedience to Christ, knowing that I was following the Lord's example and identifying with the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Let's just suppose that if you are wrong...........your soul is lost as you've added something to the finished work of Christ on the cross, thus making God a liar and taking away from the complete sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. While, if I'm wrong, (according to your explanation of salvation) I have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and I have been baptized in obedience to God (whether I realized it was needed for salvation or simply to obey and be in right fellowship with God) and thus my error would not be as grave nor damning to my soul as your error.

It was not my intention to be harsh or critical of you and I've enjoyed our verbal discourse and discussion of the Scriptures.

May God shine the light of the truth in your heart,

TRC


trc,

You are welcome. You have not offended me in the least bit with your views that I would be lost if I were wrong. I assure you that the Bible does in fact teach that one must be baptized. I have provided scriptures and have not heard you or anyone else here provide one bit of evidence to prove that what I have said is incorrorct.

Again I ask, if baptism is not required then please explain the following verses:
1. Acts 2:38
2. Acts 9:9-11; 22:16
3. Rom 6:3-6
4. Gal 3:27

And I could give many more but these provide enough evidence.

I must tell you that you are wrong about whether your error would be less harmful. trc, if one is not baptized for the remission of sins, then one is lost. Please, consider the passages that I have provided with an open mind.

In Christ,

Robert

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Greetings! Thank you for posting.

First, to answer your first question with a question, does Christ dying mean that we are totally free from obeying? It seams that your argument is that since Christ died (obeying His father's will) that we are then free not to obey the Father's will. Is that your argument? If so, there are numerous passages that refute such a view. After all, Matt 7:21ff teaches us that is is those who do His will that will enter heaven some day.

As to the idea that we can do no works that relate to salvation, I ask you: Why did Paul tell the Philippians to "work out their own salvation...?" Yes, he was writing to the church which means that they were already saved but, if we must work out our own salvation after we are saved (which clearly refutes the false teaching of once saved always saved) why should we think that we have nothing that is required of us in order to be saved? Again, I also submit to you that faith is a work (Eph 2:10).

I would also like to note that works of obedience is not the same thing as works of merit. Read the books of Romans and Hebrews. Read the entire NT and we can clearly see that.

I am glad that you quoted Heb 11:17. Notice what it says..."By faith Abraham offered..." By Faith Abraham did what God had told him to do. Read that entire chapter and we find the same thing said over and over again...By faith someone obeyed God. Verse 4 says that by faith Abal offered... These are our examples, by Faith they obeyed God. When we obey the Gospel we are acting upon our belief. God has provided us with His word which tells us what we must do in order to be saved. If we have faith, then certainly we will do what He has told us to do.

I will ask you the same questions that I asked before; question which I have yet to recieve and answer for.

1. If I am not required to be baptized, then please explain Acts 2:38?
2. If I am not required to be baptized, the please explain Acts 9:9-11; 22:16?
3. If I am not required to be baptized, the please explain Rom 6:3-6?
4. If I am not required to be baptized, the please explain Gal 3:27?
5. And while we are at it, If I am not required to be baptized, please explain every conversion that we find within the book of Acts? Again and again we see baptism. Why, if it is not required?

I must obey God and in doing so I earn nothing! Luke 17:10


You are most welcome.

In answer to your statement. I never said that we are not to obey. The point is until we have the Holy Spirit empowering us we are not equipped to obey!!! The Holy Spirit doesn't indwell us until we recognize that we are sinners in need of Savior and by faith accept the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. As born again children of God we most certainly are called to good works and obedience. As far as baptism is concerned, Jesus told the thief on the cross that that day he would be there with Him paradise. No where does it say that if we die without baptism that we will be condemned but over and over it tells us if we go out into eternity without Jesus Christ as our Saviour we are condemned already.

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I'm just gonna post all of your verses here for easy reference.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I will be honest on this one and admit that I haven't quite figured out the meaning behind this outside of the possibility that for mean because of. Other than that, I'm not sure.

Acts 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

I'm not sure what this has to do with baptism but I answered it so does that suffice? :frog

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Now this poses a little problem for you as well as me. The problem is that baptism is first in this order of things, even before calling on the Lord. I suggest that further study is necessary for this verse and I will admit that I'm not sure about this one either.

Romans6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Now this one takes things a bit out of the realm in which we have been dealing. You see, I think this passage is clearly talking about the baptism of the Holy Ghost. By the Holy Ghost, we are baptized into Christ's death. I'll get into that more in a second.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Again, when we are baptized into Christ, it is speaking of Holy Ghost baptism. Now let me further explain.

In Mark 1:8 we have "I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost."
And again in Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
What are these passages saying? They seem to clearly indicate that while they were baptized with water previously, they would afterwards be baptized by the Holy Ghost, that indicating a replacement, not a conjoining.

And how is this transformation brought about, by Christ's work on the cross: Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
John baptized with water but Christ would baptize with the Holy Ghost. Interesting contrast...

But now we're stuck with two baptisms, so how do we reconcile that? Can we have baptism of the Holy Ghost and baptism of water, as well? I don't think so. Baptism of the Holy Ghost takes place at the time of salvation, right? And you say that water baptism is required for salvation. That becomes a problem when we look at Ephesians 4:5 which says "One Lord, one faith, one baptism." Okay, so we can only have one baptism. Both are in Scripture, both are in Acts. So now what do we do? Well, why don't we look at some other Scripture verses that might help us see everything in context.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Clearly, nothing that we DO could give us eternal life. Faith alone is the way to Christ. Let's look at another one:

Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

This passage is particularly interesting. We have him clearly saying that whoever believes will have forgiveness of sins. Then, the Holy Ghost falls upon them. Then they spoke in tongues, a gift not possible to the unsaved. Then, he says, why can't they be baptized since they have received the Holy Ghost just as we have. THEN, finally, they were baptized. There was clear evidence that salvation took place when they believed, well before baptism took place.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
The call in this verse indicates one who has put his faith in Christ. Whoever calls upon the Lord will be saved. That is faith and that yields salvation as this verse clearly states.

Here's one that's well known:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

How do we get eternal life? By believing in Christ. Now, it would be a pretty serious error if God was to leave off something as important as baptism if it was necessary for salvation. That would leave us totally lost. But no, God said believe and you will have everlasting life. Nothing about baptism in there.

These verses pose some problems for us then, no? We both have verses that seem to indicate one thing or another. However, we still have the issue of one baptism in a realm where there seem to be two. But is there really? My belief, based on what I understand from the passages that indicate that salvation takes place in the heart and cannot be based on any work of man, is that we are baptized with the Holy Ghost upon salvation. Our water baptism is a representation of that Holy Ghost baptism which takes place inwardly and cannot be seen by our fellow believers. Water baptism is a way to show what has taken place. Again, only one can legitimately exist and Holy Ghost baptism is the only one that isn't based on works.

Now I've taken the time to answer each verse that you posted honestly and with an open mind. I hope that you will do me the courtesy of reading my post with an open mind.

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Kevin,

Thank you for attempting to answer my questions.

I would also like to say that I appreciate your honesty about still needing to study some of these verses to understand them. If you will allow me, I will be glad to help you with them.

First, we have Acts 2:38. You say that the only explanation that you possibly have is that it means ?because of.? There are a couple of problems with this view. First, the Greek word for ?for? is ?eis? and this word does not mean ?because of.? No reputable Greek lexicon/concordance translates it as such. Study the various Bible translations and you will find that even poor translations such as the NIV fail to translate ?eis? as ?because of.? Simply put, it means ?unto,? ?toward,? etc. The second problem that we find is that ?for (eis)? applies to both words: ?repent? and ?be baptized.? So, if we are baptized ?because of? the remission of sins then we are to repent ?because of? the remission of sins. Does it make sense to you to say repent ?because of? remission of your sins?

Acts 9:9-11 is related in that it helps us to better understand Acts 22:16. They are telling about the same event. Acts 9:9-11 teaches us that Saul (Paul) spent 3 days fasting and praying after Jesus told him to go into Damascus and wait for someone to tell him what he must do. Acts 22:16 tells us that Ananias told him to arise and be baptized?. Saul needed to do something though he had been praying and fasting for 3 days.

Now you say that this passage presents a problem for me as well as you. With all due respect, this passage poses no problem for what I have said. First allow me to quickly review to get us to where we need to be. The plan of salvation includes 1. God?s part which is Grace (i.e. He sent Jesus to die for us) and 2. Man?s part which is obedience (i.e. 1. Hear the word (Rom 10:17); 2. Believe (Heb 11:6); 3. Repent of our sins (Luke 13:3); 4. Confess Christ (Matt 10:32-33); and 5. Be baptized (Acts 2:38). I offer but one verse for each so as not to take up too much space. Now, keeping these things in mind we ask well why did Ananias not tell Saul all of this? Why did he begin with baptism? Simple answer. Ananias began at the point that Saul was at. He did not need to tell Saul to believe because he already did. He did not need to tell him to repent because he already had?.. You see the point? Ananias simply took Saul from the point that he was at to the point he needed to be.

Now, you mentioned that he also put baptism before ?calling on the name of the Lord.? Again, let us consider this passage. ?Being baptized? is the same thing as ?calling on the name of the Lord.? We call upon the name of the Lord when we submit to Him in baptism.

Now, since you relate the rest of the passages together, we will consider them together. You say that you believe that this is referring to ?the baptism of the Holy Spirit.? But, you see that since we have baptism in water and the baptism of the HS in consideration that we have a potential conflict with Eph 4:5 which tells us that there is but one baptism. This is not a problem at all. Who was Paul writing to in this letter? He was writing to the Ephesians of course. (Eph 1:1) So, we must ask ourselves, what would they understand this passage to mean? Well, let us examine Acts 19:1-5. This tells us of Paul coming up certain Ephesians who had not received the HS (not the miraculous for that could only be given to them by the laying on of the hands of the Apostles as we see in verse 6ff). He baptized them (in water). So, when he wrote to the Ephesians that there was but one baptism they would clearly understand what he was speaking of. A study of the baptism of the HS is a detail discussion that we will save for another time. But I will say this much. This is not something that applies to all Christians but occurred but twice, maybe 3 times (Acts 2 (the Apostles), 10 (Cornilious and other Gentiles) and possibly upon Paul)

Though you have attempted to explain away Grace in Eph 2:8-10, we are still left with the fact that this verse clearly shows that we are not saved by faith only. James 2:24 specifically states that we are not. We have no verse that says we are saved by faith only but we do have a passage that says we are not. I am left with no other conclusion than that we are NOT saved by faith only.

Acts 10:42ff is not an issue either. Again as I reference above, the HS falling upon them is the miraculous and is the Baptism of the HS. This was to demonstrate to Peter and the other Jews that God had made Salvation available to the Gentiles. They were then baptized for the remission of their sins.

Acts 2:21 again ?calling on the name of the Lord? is shown in Acts 22:16 to refer to being baptized.

Yes, we must believe (John 3:16) and I have not denied that but indeed have pointed that out. But, we are not saved by faith only and you can not present even one verse that teaches that we are. Not one. Study James 2:14-26 closely and it will help you to understand this. I will leave this passage for you to study for yourself. We can look at it later if you would like. But, notice specifically James 2:18. Also study Heb 11 and notice what true faith is. Notice these great examples that we are given. Faith is active not some sort of passive thing. We have faith when we obey God?s will.

With all due respect, God did not leave baptism off. He said it in so many passages that we only miss it if we don?t want to see it. It is there.

Again, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions and again I appreciate that you admitted that you need to study some of the passages further. I hope that what I have presented to you will be helpful. (Rom 1:16) Kevin, I hope that I am always studying various views with an open mind. But, I must also say that having an open mind does not mean that I will be convinced by the argument. You have presented nothing that teaches that we are saved by faith only or that teaches that baptism is not required. I must continue to stand on what the Gospel teaches. I hope that you will consider these things with an open mind and I pray that your eyes will be open to the truth.

In Christ,

Robert

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I could say a lot more but I have one simple question for now. Is baptism a work or is it not?


A work of obedience for certain. A work of merit not even close. And before you respond with what Paul said in Eph 2:8-10 consider two facts. First, he was saying that we are not saved by works of merit which is certainly true. Second, notice that verse 10 teaches that faith is also a work which would mean that if all works of any kind are illiminated then so is faith. Can't have it both ways Kevin.

In Christ,

Robert

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Acts 2;38 is the verse thrown out the most often in this thread as proof that one must be baptized in order to be saved. Well let's look at that then. First, let's go to the book of John, or the Book of Matthew for that matter. Why was John baptizing in the river Jordan? Why did Jesus need baptized? Did he need saved? Is it not true that baptism for the Jews was a sign of change. Hence the reason John told them to "Repent and be baptized". But the point has been made that we can only access the redempting blood of Christ through water baptism. If this is so, To what was the baptism of John linked? Seeing as how the blood had not yet been shed. Peter spoke of baptism in the same manner in which John did. Water baptism as a sign of change. The baptism of the Holy Spirit which is given by Christ is the most important baptism. And it's received only by placing faith in Christ. Let's stop here for now. I will ask more questions later.

In Christ

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Good point, Bro. Ed. There are a lot of holes in the argument for baptism being necessary for salvation and it just doesn't fit with the rest of Scripture. The word "works" means simply a deed, an action. It doesn't say anything about it being a work of merit, that's adding to the Scriptures. Faith is not an action, it is a state of your heart. There is more I could say about the subject but I don't feel like it after writing my longest post ever. lol Plus, it's hard to argue with anyone of any denomination who's been seminary-educated. They are taught the pet doctrines of their college and taught all the right arguments on how to defend them and nothing can ever be resolved upon because it will just continue going around and round.

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We just cannot expect a lost person to understand how one is saved, they cannot discenr God's truths from
the Holy Bible.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Cor 2:14-16 (KJV)

I've asked those people who believe one must be baptized to enter heaven, if they are talking with some on Thursday night, and they want to be baptized to be saved will they baptize them right them.

I always get this answer, no, we will do the baptizing at a convenient time.

I them ask when would be a convenient time, most often they will say Sunday morning.

Them I ask, what if on the way to church Sunday morning to be baptized and they're in a car wreck and die, will that mean they will not enter heaven?

Their reply is usually God will take care of take.

Them I ask, that person may just go to heave them, is that what you saying.

Them they say, no we're saying God will take care of it.

Yes, lost people just cannot discern God's Word, so they just can't understand that those who put their faith in baptizing have miss placed their faith and will never see heaven and thus the verses below just do not make sense to them.
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:38 (KJV)

They just cannot comprehend that this verse means that one is baptized because of remission of sin and accepting Jesus as their Savior.

Its clear in the pages of the Bible, that remission of sin only comes by repenting of ones sin, asking forgiveness, confessing, them accepting Christ as Savior.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9 (KJV)

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-16 (KJV)

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:21 (KJV)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:8 (KJV)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20:31 (KJV)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:24 (KJV)

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:40 (KJV)

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16 {does not say he that believeth not shall be damned)

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 7:38 (KJV)

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:41 (KJV)

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matt 10:32 (KJV)

Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 12:8 (KJV)

Isaiah 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

You can argue with them till the cows come home, it will do no good, the only way you can help them is to try and get them to accept Christ as Savior.

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We just cannot expect a lost person to understand how one is saved, they cannot discenr God's truths from
the Holy Bible.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Cor 2:14-16 (KJV)

I've asked those people who believe one must be baptized to enter heaven, if they are talking with some on Thursday night, and they want to be baptized to be saved will they baptize them right them.

I always get this answer, no, we will do the baptizing at a convenient time.

I them ask when would be a convenient time, most often they will say Sunday morning.

Them I ask, what if on the way to church Sunday morning to be baptized and they're in a car wreck and die, will that mean they will not enter heaven?

Their reply is usually God will take care of take.

Them I ask, that person may just go to heave them, is that what you saying.

Them they say, no we're saying God will take care of it.

Yes, lost people just cannot discern God's Word, so they just can't understand that those who put their faith in baptizing have miss placed their faith and will never see heaven and thus the verses below just do not make sense to them.
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:38 (KJV)

They just cannot comprehend that this verse means that one is baptized because of remission of sin and accepting Jesus as their Savior.

Its clear in the pages of the Bible, that remission of sin only comes by repenting of ones sin, asking forgiveness, confessing, them accepting Christ as Savior.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9 (KJV)

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-16 (KJV)

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:21 (KJV)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:8 (KJV)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20:31 (KJV)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:24 (KJV)

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:40 (KJV)

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16 {does not say he that believeth not shall be damned)

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 7:38 (KJV)

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:41 (KJV)

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matt 10:32 (KJV)

Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 12:8 (KJV)

Isaiah 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

You can argue with them till the cows come home, it will do no good, the only way you can help them is to try and get them to accept Christ as Savior.



Agreed, 100%!

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Hello again,

This is a general response to the postings that have been made since my last post. Since each of you have ignored the clear evidence that disproves each argument that you continue to make, I take that as a statement that not one of you are interested in the truth but simply in the false teaching of a denomination. That is of course a decision that each of you must make for yourself.

I do feel compelled to clear up on statement that you made Jerry. You say that the people you have spoken to who believe in the necessity of baptism for salvation has upon your questioning them said that they would wait until Sunday if it was say Thursday when someone wanted to be baptized. This of course would present the person claiming to believe in baptism in a bit of a contradiction. I do not know who you have been speaking with, but I can assure you that speaking for myself and everyone I know within the Lord's church, I would not make such a statement. It would not matter the least what time of day or night it was if someone wanted to obey the Gospel. I would be there and gladly help them to do so. Let me say it again...it could be 3:00 in the moring or any other time and I would get out of bed and go baptize someone or even go watch as someone else did. Jerry, baptism is taught as being necessary to salvation. I have provided multiple verses that not one person on here has been able to refute. It is important and any Christian would gladly get up and help a person obey the Gospel. If he/she would not, then they show themselves to be poor servants of the Lord.

Now, I will say this: if you guys are going to do nothing but present the same tired and disproven arguments while ignoring the truth then there is really no reason for me to say any more on this subject to you. I hope that those who are overseeing this site will leave this thread up so that anyone who wishes to see the truth can. I am here and will continue to post and will gladly answer anything that you have to offer that is new.

In Christ,

Robert

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We didn't ask you to come and teach us and you display an amazing amount of arrogance to assume that we are poor blind people in need of the light that you can provide. I follow no denomination and am unaffiliated. I serve God alone and follow only His Word. You also have been unable to answer verses to the contrary in any kind of adequate fashion. You are entrenched in what you believe and can only respond in stereotypical arguments that I can only assume you learned at seminary. It is impossible to deny that baptism is a work = deed = unbiblical.

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I've asked both members of the coC and Pentecostals the question about baptizing.

If my past sins are forgiven when I am baptized in water, and it is possible for me to "lose my salvation" and go to hell after being baptized, then wouldn't my best chance of going to heaven be to drown in the baptistery? Before I had a chance to sin so as to be lost again? If I wanted to be absolutely sure of heaven, isn't that my best opportunity?

John 3:36 He that beleeueth on the Sonne, hath euerlasting life: and he that beleeueth not the Sonne, shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Please take notice, it does not say he who is not baptized hath everlasting life, but he that believes.

And it does not say he that is not baptized shall not see life and the wrath of God abideth on him, but he who does not believe on the Son of God.

Joh 3:15 That whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue eternall life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loued ye world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.

And it says, he who believes has eternal life, if one is lost again after being saved them this promise from God is false and we cannot believe anything the Bible says.

Being as you bring up being saved, if you were to die today would you go to heaven? God does want you to have assurance, and you can have it.

Have you ever repented of your sins, have you confessed your sin to God, have you accepted Jesus as your Savior.

There is only one way.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saued, through faith, and that not of your selues: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of workes, lest any man should boast.

Its by the grace of God thru faith in Jesus, not of yourself, not of works.

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Jesus is standing at the door knocking, how about opening that door and accept Jesus as your Savior today, it is the only way to the Father.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Some 2000 years ago Jesus died on that cross to pay our sin debt, there is only one way to clear up that debt.

1pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

And that is simply by repenting, confessing, and accepting that free gift that God offers you. Baptizing will not save you, but Jesus can and will, but its up to you.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Again, notice it only says the that believeth, not he that is baptized.

Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

But its up to you, trust your soul to Christ or to a man baptizing you. Why not trust Him today and accept that free wonderful gift God is offering you?

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I've asked both members of the coC and Pentecostals the question about baptizing.

If my past sins are forgiven when I am baptized in water, and it is possible for me to "lose my salvation" and go to hell after being baptized, then wouldn't my best chance of going to heaven be to drown in the baptistery? Before I had a chance to sin so as to be lost again? If I wanted to be absolutely sure of heaven, isn't that my best opportunity?

John 3:36 He that beleeueth on the Sonne, hath euerlasting life: and he that beleeueth not the Sonne, shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Please take notice, it does not say he who is not baptized hath everlasting life, but he that believes.

And it does not say he that is not baptized shall not see life and the wrath of God abideth on him, but he who does not believe on the Son of God.

Joh 3:15 That whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue eternall life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loued ye world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.

And it says, he who believes has eternal life, if one is lost again after being saved them this promise from God is false and we cannot believe anything the Bible says.

Being as you bring up being saved, if you were to die today would you go to heaven? God does want you to have assurance, and you can have it.

Have you ever repented of your sins, have you confessed your sin to God, have you accepted Jesus as your Savior.

There is only one way.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saued, through faith, and that not of your selues: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of workes, lest any man should boast.

Its by the grace of God thru faith in Jesus, not of yourself, not of works.

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Jesus is standing at the door knocking, how about opening that door and accept Jesus as your Savior today, it is the only way to the Father.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Some 2000 years ago Jesus died on that cross to pay our sin debt, there is only one way to clear up that debt.

1pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

And that is simply by repenting, confessing, and accepting that free gift that God offers you. Baptizing will not save you, but Jesus can and will, but its up to you.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Again, notice it only says the that believeth, not he that is baptized.

Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

But its up to you, trust your soul to Christ or to a man baptizing you. Why not trust Him today and accept that free wonderful gift God is offering you?



Amen , Jerry #'s :amen:

And I would ask also, since the coc says you're not saved unless you've been baptised:
Is the theif that died on the cross, that called on the Lord, believing in Him -- in hell because he was not baptised?
OH! wait, maybe they held a proxy baptism for him similar to the Mormons...

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Well, they claim it was under a different dispensation so he didn't need it. That doesn't explain why John was baptizing, Christ was baptized, and Jesus commanded His disciples to be baptized, though.

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who is the they? the coc?

and what was the different dispensation at that time?

Did dispensations switch for one day and then back to something else?

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who is the they? the coc?

and what was the different dispensation at that time?

Did dispensations switch for one day and then back to something else?

Yeah, coc'ers. It comes from a dispensational view of Scripture, meaning there were different ways to get saved at different times in Scriptural history.

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So, according to a "coc'er";

"Suzy Q" is bedridden, a lost wicked sinner. She is witnessed to about the Lord Jesus Christ, convicted of her sin, repents of her wickedness and places her faith in the Lord Jesus and Him alone. But dies before she could/and maybe she could not go through a baptism.


Where would Suzy Q go?

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So, according to a "coc'er";

"Suzy Q" is bedridden, a lost wicked sinner. She is witnessed to about the Lord Jesus Christ, convicted of her sin, repents of her wickedness and places her faith in the Lord Jesus and Him alone. But dies before she could/and maybe she could not go through a baptism.


Where would Suzy Q go?

To Hell, according to COC doctrine. God's mercy is limited to those who complete the necessary work, that being baptism. It is a works/faith belief and attacks the sufficiency of Christ's work on the cross by adding our own feeble and vain efforts to the scenario. Man is totally degenerate and wholly incapable of doing anything to effectuate his own salvation, which is precisely what he is doing if he required to fulfill a deed for salvation.

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who is the they? the coc?

and what was the different dispensation at that time?

Did dispensations switch for one day and then back to something else?


mksj1611,

Greetings! Thank you for your posts. As I stated in my last post, I am not going to continue to post in response to the same disproven arguments. But, since you have just joined the discussion and have some questions, I will say this much:

If you are interested in the truth and are willing to look at what the Bible does in fact say about these things, go back and read my previous post. I provide ample scripture to support everything that I have said. The Bible is very clear on these issues and it is critical that we obey the will of God.

I believe that I also commented on the different dispensations that have existed but just in case: There have been 3 dispensations. Patriaricle; Mosaic and now Christian. The Thief on the cross, as previously pointed out, was under the Mosaical law (dispensation) and was thus not required to do the same things as we are. If you would like to further discuss these matters, please let me know. Also, please, do look back to my previous post. I provide many passages to demonstrate that it is not my words but the Word of God.

In Christ,

Robert

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trc,

You are welcome. You have not offended me in the least bit with your views that I would be lost if I were wrong. I assure you that the Bible does in fact teach that one must be baptized. I have provided scriptures and have not heard you or anyone else here provide one bit of evidence to prove that what I have said is incorrorct.

Again I ask, if baptism is not required then please explain the following verses:
1. Acts 2:38
2. Acts 9:9-11; 22:16
3. Rom 6:3-6
4. Gal 3:27

And I could give many more but these provide enough evidence.

I must tell you that you are wrong about whether your error would be less harmful. trc, if one is not baptized for the remission of sins, then one is lost. Please, consider the passages that I have provided with an open mind.

In Christ,

Robert


It teaches us that once we are saved we need to be baptized. But no where does it teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation. If you die without water baptism but have recognized that you are sinner in need of a Savior, repented of your sin and in faith accepted that the Lord Jesus died and was buried and rose the third day in your place. Scripture teaches us that God gives you his free gift of eternal life!!!

The Apostle Paul wrote:
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. I Cor 1:17

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So, according to a "coc'er";

"Suzy Q" is bedridden, a lost wicked sinner. She is witnessed to about the Lord Jesus Christ, convicted of her sin, repents of her wickedness and places her faith in the Lord Jesus and Him alone. But dies before she could/and maybe she could not go through a baptism.


Where would Suzy Q go?


By the beliefs of the hard core coC, Suzy Q would go to hell for she has not been baptized into the coC.

The same thing goes for the solider in the fox hole in the middle of the war, he to would go to hell according to the die hard coC even after repenting of his sin and confessing Jesus as Savior.

The Pentecostals teaches the same way, only you got to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ into their church, not the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The thing about it, there is only one way to be saved, no matter what time period your born in.

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:hide Is it safe in here now? I have never heard of having to be baptized to get saved. I agree that baptism is a further (outward) commitment to the Lord's will, once saved. If it is the other way around, which I haven't seen scriptually supported yet, then is salvation any less settled for those of us who weren't baptized before our professions of faith, like "Suzy Q"? :uuhm:

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