Jump to content
  • Welcome to Online Baptist

    Free to join.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

coc333

What must I do to be saved?

Recommended Posts

In Acts 2, Peter preached the first gospel sermon after Christ ascended back to heaven. He told the Jews that they had crucified Christ who is the son of God. In verse 37 they asked men and brethren, what shall we do? We understand that they were asking what they had to do to be saved. This is the most important question that one can ask or answer.

If someone were to ask you that same question today, how would you answer it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A recognize your sinful state see Romans 3.10, 3.23
Realize your sins earn you death see Romans 6.23
A physical death and
B spiritual death or eternal separation from God in Hell and later in the lake of fire see the 2nd death in Revelations 20.14, 21.8
once you understand both see what Christ has done for you see Romans 5.8 and Romans 6.23(B)
Pray (ask) God to forgive you of your sinful state and express to God that as best as you know how that you will trust God and accept His Son as your Saviour

No doubt about it. I love going soul winning. I know better know at 33 than I did in April 17th 1988 when I 1st professed faith in Christ.

Boy i am dating myself :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for your response. So, we must recognize that we need salvation? That is certainly what the Jews did. They clearly saw the need to be saved. Had they not, they certainly would not have asked the question. It is equally clear that they believed that Jesus is who He said that He is (ie the Son of God). But, why do you say that the alien sinner is to pray to ask forgiveness. That was not the response that Peter gave to them.

In verse 38 of Acts 2 Peter responded, "...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Why did Peter say that they were required to both "repent," and "be baptized?"

Would not the conversion of Saul (Paul) also cause a problem with the view that the alien sinner must "pray" for forgivness? In Acts 9:9-11 it seems apparent that Saul had been praying for 3 days. Yet when Ananias went to him as God had commanded him to do, Ananias' response was not that all was ok. Why? Was his prayer not enough? Ananias's response was, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Why was this? Why did he tell Saul this? Why did he tell him to be baptized?

In Christ,

Robert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The repentance that Peter spoke of, is the "prayer for Forgiveness" that we speak of. To repent you must first confess to God (1 John 1:9 for starters) your sins. The confession to and forgiveness of God takes the power of sin away, allowing a person to repent or turn away from their sin. The baptism is simply the outward profession of the inward conversion. What your question seems to ask, without actually saying so is; Does someone have to be baptized to be saved? The answer is simply no. Otherwise the promise of Christ given to the thief on the cross would not have held water. He definitely did not get baptized after he repented.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The repentance that Peter spoke of' date=' is the "prayer for Forgiveness" that we speak of. To repent you must first confess to God (1 John 1:9 for starters) your sins. The confession to and forgiveness of God takes the power of sin away, allowing a person to repent or turn away from their sin. The baptism is simply the outward profession of the inward conversion. What your question seems to ask, without actually saying so is; Does someone have to be baptized to be saved? The answer is simply no. Otherwise the promise of Christ given to the thief on the cross would not have held water. He definitely did not get baptized after he repented.[/quote']

How do you derive the view that "repentance" in this passage is speaking of "prayer for forgiveness?" 1 John 1:9 is speaking of those who have already obeyed the gospel. That passage is telling the Chrisitan how he/she can be forgiven. Acts 2:38 on the other hand is speaking to those who have yet to obey the gospel.

I have no question that we must indeed be baptized in order to be saved. The bible clearly teaches this. If not, then why not? If we do not have to be baptized then explain Acts 2:38. If we do not have to be baptized then explain Acts 9:9 and 22:16. If we do not have to be baptized then eplain Romans 6:3-6 and while we are at it, please, explain to me Galations 3:27? All of these passages teach that we must be baptized in order to be saved.

Now as to the thief on the cross:

1. Are you certain that he was never baptized? Matt 3:1-6 teaches that, "Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan." How do we know that he was not among these?

2. We must remember that he was not under the same dispensation that we are. The thief was under the Mosaic dispensation. He would not have been required to be baptized.

3. We must remember that Jesus had power to forgive sins on earth. See Luke 5:24; Mark 2:10; and Matt 9:6. Jesus had the power to forgive this man's sins. Now He is bound by His NT. Now He requires that we seek forgiveness as His word sets forth for us to.

Now, let's just clear up a couple of things. First, baptism is not the only part of God's plan of salvation. We must understand that God has a part and we have a part.

God's part: Grace (Eph 2:8-10; Rom 3:26-31) but remember we do have a part or else everyone in the world is saved (Titus 2:11)

Our Part

1. The word is key (we must hear the word): Romans 10:17; Romans 1:16
2. We must have faith (John 3:16; Heb 11:6), but not a simple faith alone (James 2:14-26)
3. We must repent (Acts 3:19; Acts 2:38; Luke 13:3
4. We must confess (Matt 10:32-33; Acts 8:37)
5. We must be baptized (immersed) for the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; Acts 22:16; Gal 3:27; Rom 6:3-6)

Now let's clear something else up. Doing these things is not trying to work our way into heaven. It is not earning our way into heaven. We can do nothing that will merit our salvation but we must obey (Luke 17:10)

Also, let's clear up something else. Water regineration is not what the Bible teaches and is not what I am saying. The water is simply the means by which we contact the blood of Christ which is that which washes us clean.

If these things are not true, then why are they not true? The Bible is pretty clear.

In Christ,

Robert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A better understanding of that verse(in Acts 2) is required due to the fact that there a far more verses that are far more abundantly clear that baptism is not necessary for salvation. You can try to explain away the thief on the cross but it is just a made-up theory used to prop up an assumed belief that is clearly lacking in sufficient evidence. The Bible makes it clear that "whoever believes" and "whoever calls" WILL be saved. The Bible doesn't say "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved." It says that you believe and are saved. I am of the opinion that a prayer is not even necessary for salvation as much as an inward casting of yourself upon Christ's mercy for forgiveness and repentance of sins. A verbal prayer is a manifestation of the heart, which is why so many people pray the prayer and nothing happens. It's not the prayer that saves you.

Consider this verse:
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Corinthians 1:17

Clearly, the gospel is more important than baptism or else they would go hand in hand and Paul would be required to baptize them because, if baptism was necessary for salvation, the gospel would be incomplete without it.

edit to add:

As an example, when one says ?Take two aspirin for your headache,? it is obvious to everybody that it does not mean ?take two aspirin in order to get your headache,? but instead to ?take two aspirin because you already have a headache.? There are three possible meanings of the word ?for? that might fit the context of Acts 2:38: 1--?in order to be, become, get, have, keep, etc.,? 2??because of, as the result of,? or 3??with regard to.? Since any one of the three meanings could fit the context of this passage, additional study is required in order to determine which one is correct. We need to start by looking back to the original language and the meaning of the Greek word eis. This is a common Greek word (it is used 1774 times in the New Testament) that is translated many different ways. Like the English word ?for? it can have several different meanings. So, again, we see at least two or three possible meanings of the passage, one that would seem to support that baptism is required for salvation and others that would not. While both the meanings of the Greek word eis are seen in different passages of Scripture, such noted Greek scholars as A.T. Robertson and J.R. Mantey have maintained that the Greek preposition eis in Acts 2:38 should be translated ?because of? or ?in view of,? and not ?in order to,? or ?for the purpose of.?

Why, then, do some come to the conclusion that we must be baptized in order to be saved? Often, the discussion of whether or not this passage teaches baptism is required for salvation centers around the Greek word eis that is translated ?for? in this passage. Those who hold to the belief that baptism is required for salvation are quick to point to this verse and the fact that it says ?be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,? assuming that the word translated ?for? in this verse means ?in order to get.? However, in both Greek and English, there are many possible usages of the word ?for.?






You can read the whole article here: http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Acts-2-38.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A better understanding of that verse(in Acts 2) is required due to the fact that there a far more verses that are far more abundantly clear that baptism is not necessary for salvation. You can try to explain away the thief on the cross but it is just a made-up theory used to prop up an assumed belief that is clearly lacking in sufficient evidence. The Bible makes it clear that "whoever believes" and "whoever calls" WILL be saved. The Bible doesn't say "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved." It says that you believe and are saved. I am of the opinion that a prayer is not even necessary for salvation as much as an inward casting of yourself upon Christ's mercy for forgiveness and repentance of sins. A verbal prayer is a manifestation of the heart, which is why so many people pray the prayer and nothing happens. It's not the prayer that saves you.

Consider this verse:
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Corinthians 1:17

Clearly, the gospel is more important than baptism or else they would go hand in hand and Paul would be required to baptize them because, if baptism was necessary for salvation, the gospel would be incomplete without it.

edit to add:

As an example, when one says ?Take two aspirin for your headache,? it is obvious to everybody that it does not mean ?take two aspirin in order to get your headache,? but instead to ?take two aspirin because you already have a headache.? There are three possible meanings of the word ?for? that might fit the context of Acts 2:38: 1--?in order to be, become, get, have, keep, etc.,? 2??because of, as the result of,? or 3??with regard to.? Since any one of the three meanings could fit the context of this passage, additional study is required in order to determine which one is correct. We need to start by looking back to the original language and the meaning of the Greek word eis. This is a common Greek word (it is used 1774 times in the New Testament) that is translated many different ways. Like the English word ?for? it can have several different meanings. So, again, we see at least two or three possible meanings of the passage, one that would seem to support that baptism is required for salvation and others that would not. While both the meanings of the Greek word eis are seen in different passages of Scripture, such noted Greek scholars as A.T. Robertson and J.R. Mantey have maintained that the Greek preposition eis in Acts 2:38 should be translated ?because of? or ?in view of,? and not ?in order to,? or ?for the purpose of.?

Why, then, do some come to the conclusion that we must be baptized in order to be saved? Often, the discussion of whether or not this passage teaches baptism is required for salvation centers around the Greek word eis that is translated ?for? in this passage. Those who hold to the belief that baptism is required for salvation are quick to point to this verse and the fact that it says ?be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,? assuming that the word translated ?for? in this verse means ?in order to get.? However, in both Greek and English, there are many possible usages of the word ?for.?






You can read the whole article here: http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Acts-2-38.html



Mr. Miller,

Thank you for your reply to my post. Where shall we begin?

Let's begin with Acts 2:38. You brought up the Greek word "eis." I expected that someone would. No respectable Greek Lexicon translates it as "because of." Looking at Bible translations, we find that even such poor translations as the NIV translates this as "for" and not "because of." Why is that? Second, if "eis" means "because of," then we have to say that one must repent "because of," the forgiveness of sins since "eis" appplies to both repent and be baptized.

But, even if you could dismiss this verse with such an argument (you can't but even if you could) there are so many other verses that teach the necessity of baptism. Again, as I have already said:

1. If one is not required to be baptized, then please explain Acts 9:9 and Acts 22:16?
2. If one is not required to be baptized, then please explain Romans 6:3-6?
3. If one is not required to be baptized, then please explain Galations 3:27?

Now, if you feel that my points on the "thief on the cross" is a "made up theory to prop up an assumed belief that is clearly lacking in sufficient evidence." Please explain how any of the points are incorrect? Was the thief on the cross under the Christians dispensation? Of course he was not. Christ had yet to die. Did Christ not have power to forgive sins on earth? If not then please explain Luke 5:24? Do you believe that He still has that power? Can He forgive sins outside of what the instructions we find in the NT? If so, the please explain Romans 1:16? Can you prove that this man was not baptized? If so, then do so?

Now, you said that the Bible does not say "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved." Well, reading the KJV, I must conclude that you are right. What Mark 16:16 actually says is, "He that believeth and is baptized SHALL be saved...." But are we going to argue over the word "will" verses the word "shall?" I suggest that we don't. I am sure that other translations use the word "will." Now, I am sure that you will point out that the second part of that verse says, "...but he that believeth not shall be damned," and that you will point out that it does not say that "he that is not baptized shall be damned." That is certainly true. But, if I say to you that anyone who opens the door and walks in will be in the house but anyone who does not open the door will not be in the house, you will clearly see the point.

You say that there are many verses that teach that no one must be baptized. If so, name just one. I find none that does so. You mentioned that Paul said that he was not sent to be baptized. That is true, but read the context of 1 Cor 1:17, he never said that he did not baptize. An interesting side note is that when the Gospel was preached and people believed, then they obeyed by submitting to the Lord in baptism.

We can not get around that baptism is certainly required. If not, then why not?

In Christ,

Robert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Mr. Miller,

Thank you for your reply to my post. Where shall we begin?

Let's begin with Acts 2:38. You brought up the Greek word "eis." I expected that someone would. No respectable Greek Lexicon translates it as "because of." Looking at Bible translations, we find that even such poor translations as the NIV translates this as "for" and not "because of." Why is that? Second, if "eis" means "because of," then we have to say that one must repent "because of," the forgiveness of sins since "eis" appplies to both repent and be baptized.

But, even if you could dismiss this verse with such an argument (you can't but even if you could) there are so many other verses that teach the necessity of baptism. Again, as I have already said:

1. If one is not required to be baptized, then please explain Acts 9:9 and Acts 22:16?
2. If one is not required to be baptized, then please explain Romans 6:3-6?
3. If one is not required to be baptized, then please explain Galations 3:27?

Now, if you feel that my points on the "thief on the cross" is a "made up theory to prop up an assumed belief that is clearly lacking in sufficient evidence." Please explain how any of the points are incorrect? Was the thief on the cross under the Christians dispensation? Of course he was not. Christ had yet to die. Did Christ not have power to forgive sins on earth? If not then please explain Luke 5:24? Do you believe that He still has that power? Can He forgive sins outside of what the instructions we find in the NT? If so, the please explain Romans 1:16? Can you prove that this man was not baptized? If so, then do so?

Now, you said that the Bible does not say "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved." Well, reading the KJV, I must conclude that you are right. What Mark 16:16 actually says is, "He that believeth and is baptized SHALL be saved...." But are we going to argue over the word "will" verses the word "shall?" I suggest that we don't. I am sure that other translations use the word "will." Now, I am sure that you will point out that the second part of that verse says, "...but he that believeth not shall be damned," and that you will point out that it does not say that "he that is not baptized shall be damned." That is certainly true. But, if I say to you that anyone who opens the door and walks in will be in the house but anyone who does not open the door will not be in the house, you will clearly see the point.

You say that there are many verses that teach that no one must be baptized. If so, name just one. I find none that does so. You mentioned that Paul said that he was not sent to be baptized. That is true, but read the context of 1 Cor 1:17, he never said that he did not baptize. An interesting side note is that when the Gospel was preached and people believed, then they obeyed by submitting to the Lord in baptism.

We can not get around that baptism is certainly required. If not, then why not?

In Christ,

Robert



Robert,

A few questions:

Must one believe in the combination of believing on Christ and the baptism for that salvation, or is it sufficient to believe on Christ and be baptized, whether you believe in the efficacy of baptism or not?

The one who believed on Christ for salvation and then baptized, but not believing in the efficacy of the baptism, must they now be baptized believing it is an essential part of salvation?

Does the person need to have someone else baptize them for this to be effective in saving them, or can they simply baptize themself out in the river?

Does this part of being saved include others needing to see them being baptized to be saved, or is it sufficient just to do it?

The person who believes on Christ from a Bible they've picked up and read from, is it sufficient to intend to be baptized in order for this to count with God (as far as salvation) or do they actually need to have been baptized? What happens to the one who's believed and attempting to be baptized by searching out other believers, but perishes first.....what is their end?

What precisely is counted unto the believer as their righteousness?

How does adding baptism as a requirement for salvation affect God's glory?

Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You never answered this:
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Corinthians 1:17

Clearly, the gospel is more important than baptism or else they would go hand in hand and Paul would be required to baptize them because, if baptism was necessary for salvation, the gospel would be incomplete without it.

Also, for Mark 16:16:
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned? (Mark 16:16). If we look at this verse closely, we see that it is composed of two basic statements. 1?He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2?He who does not believe will be condemned.

Clearly, the determining factor regarding whether one is saved or condemned is whether or not he believes. In interpreting this passage correctly, it is important to realize that while it tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they are saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation, a third statement would have had to be included, that statement being: ?He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned? or ?He who is not baptized will be condemned.? But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse."
http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Mark-16-16.html

Just a question, did you come here just to debate Baptism being necessary for salvation or is it possible for you to be open to any of our arguments? Cause I'm not going to continue posting in this thread if you have no intention of having an open mind about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robert,

A few questions:

Must one believe in the combination of believing on Christ and the baptism for that salvation, or is it sufficient to believe on Christ and be baptized, whether you believe in the efficacy of baptism or not?

The one who believed on Christ for salvation and then baptized, but not believing in the efficacy of the baptism, must they now be baptized believing it is an essential part of salvation?

Does the person need to have someone else baptize them for this to be effective in saving them, or can they simply baptize themself out in the river?

Does this part of being saved include others needing to see them being baptized to be saved, or is it sufficient just to do it?

The person who believes on Christ from a Bible they've picked up and read from, is it sufficient to intend to be baptized in order for this to count with God (as far as salvation) or do they actually need to have been baptized? What happens to the one who's believed and attempting to be baptized by searching out other believers, but perishes first.....what is their end?

What precisely is counted unto the believer as their righteousness?

How does adding baptism as a requirement for salvation affect God's glory?

Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You never answered this:
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Corinthians 1:17

Clearly, the gospel is more important than baptism or else they would go hand in hand and Paul would be required to baptize them because, if baptism was necessary for salvation, the gospel would be incomplete without it.

Also, for Mark 16:16:
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned? (Mark 16:16). If we look at this verse closely, we see that it is composed of two basic statements. 1?He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2?He who does not believe will be condemned.

Clearly, the determining factor regarding whether one is saved or condemned is whether or not he believes. In interpreting this passage correctly, it is important to realize that while it tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they are saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation, a third statement would have had to be included, that statement being: ?He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned? or ?He who is not baptized will be condemned.? But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse."
http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Mark-16-16.html

Just a question, did you come here just to debate Baptism being necessary for salvation or is it possible for you to be open to any of our arguments? Cause I'm not going to continue posting in this thread if you have no intention of having an open mind about it.


Mr. Miller,

Excuse me but I believe I did answer your question. Yes, Paul did say that he was not sent to baptize. We also see that he did not say that he never baptized. As a matter of fact in 1 Cor 1:14 he clearly stated that that he had baptized some of the Corinthians. Now, why did he do so? And while we are at it (back to some of the verses that you continue to ignore), why did Ananias in Acts 22:16 tell Saul (Paul) to arise and to be baptized and wash away his sins calling on the name of the Lord? According to Acts 9:9-11 Saul spent 3 days praying and yet again, Ananias told him to get up and to get baptized. Again, if it is not necessary then why did he tell Saul to do so?

While you are considering those verse, please explain these others as well. Rom 6:3-6; Gal 3:27; 1 Peter 3:21?

I have heard your argument on Mark 16:16 before and it defies logic. Firse of all, it clearly states what you said that the Bible does not say. You said that the bible does not say "he who believes and is baptized will be saved," and yet that is exactly what Mark 16:16 says. Now that this has been pointed out to you, you say well the second half does not say that he who is not baptized will not be saved. I have already explained this as well. But please, allow me to do try to do so again. Jesus said that he who 1. believes and 2. is baptized 3. shall be saved. He then said he who does not 1 believe will not 2. be saved. If I do not 1. believe then it will not matter in the least bit if I do not 2. get baptized because I will not 3. be saved. Faith is necessary, but so is baptism. Mark 16:16 says "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." You can not get around that no matter how much you would like nor how much you try. It says it sir and those are not my words but the words of Christ.

Why is it that when Phillip preached Jesus, the ethiopian eunich respondes by saying, here is water what doth hender me from being baptized? (Acts 8:35-36)

Mr. Miller, I am open to the teachings of the bible. If you can present to me a even one passage that teaches that I, a man living in the Christian dispensation, am not required to be baptized then I will agree with you. I have provided you will multiple passages that clearly teach that I must be baptized and yet you refuse to admit it. Are you not open to hearing the truth?

I am not here to pick a fight or argue. I am here because I love my Lord, I love everyone soul and I would like to discuss the Bible. If that is an offense to you, then that is something you will have to address with God. I am commanded to take the Gospel to all the world. (Mark 16:15-16; Matt 28:19-20). As Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 9:16, woe is unto me if I preach not the Gospel.

Mr. Miller, I hope that I have answered your questions and done so with a kind an loving heart. Sharing the truth in a loving manner is my desire.

In Christ,

Robert Jones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm confused. You're here because you think the rest of us are unsaved? :huh:
Out of curiosity, what would you tell a person that has no access to a lake or baptismal who had just received Christ? No matter what they do or believe or who they trust, they're still going to Hell? That doesn't jive with Scripture. The Bible says faith alone and I believe it.

How do you explain this away?
"For by grace are ye saved through faith."
Ephesians 2:8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm confused. You're here because you think the rest of us are unsaved? :huh:
Out of curiosity, what would you tell a person that has no access to a lake or baptismal who had just received Christ? No matter what they do or believe or who they trust, they're still going to Hell? That doesn't jive with Scripture. The Bible says faith alone and I believe it.

How do you explain this away?
"For by grace are ye saved through faith."
Ephesians 2:8


Mr. Miller,

I do not know you nor do I, that I am aware of, know anyone else on this site. I can not say whether you or anyone else on this site has obeyed the gospel. What I can say is that the Bible teaches that anyone who does not obey the Gospel will in fact be lost. (Matt 7:21ff)

Sir, you continue to ask me questions and I have attempted to answer each and everyone. I have asked you several question that you refuse to even acknowledge. Why is that? Why do you refuse to answer questions that are simple. You claim that the Bible does not teach that one must be baptized in order to be saved. I have provide multiple passages that clearly refutes what you are saying. You are ignoring them. Why?

I do not attempt to explain away Eph 2:8-10. I believe that passage to be completely true. We are saved by grace through faith. As Romans 6:26-31 teaches, it is not anything that we do that merits our salvation. Non of us can do anything that will EARN us salvation, but does that me we are not required to do certain things? Luke 17:10 clearly shows us that doing what has been commanded is not earning us anything, but is simply obeying the will of God.

You believe in Faith only? Then why did you quote Eph. 2:8? That passage clearly teaches that there is more to it than faith. That passage includes grace. Are we not saved by grace? If so, it can not be faith only. What about the "sinner's prayer?" Must one say that? If so, it is not by faith only. Must one repent as is taught in Luke 13:3 as well as Acts 3:19 and other passages? If so, then it is not by faith only. And what about the blood of Christ? Where does it come in? If it has a part, then it can not be by faith alone. Can you provide even 1 passage that states that we are saved by faith alone? I can provide a passage that clearly states that we are NOT saved by faith alone. James 2:24 says that we are not justified (saved) by faith only. How do you explain that, Mr. Miller.

Sir, I say let's not worry about my opinions nor your opinions but simply look at what the Bible does say.

1. What does it say about hearing the word? (Rom 10:17; Matt 17:5; John 1:1-2)
2. What does the Bible say about believing/faith? (Heb 11:6; John 3:16)
a. By the way, if work plays no part in salvation then where does faith come in because Eph 2:10 states that faith is a work.
3. What does the Bible say about repenting? (Acts 2:38; 3:19; Luke 13:3)
4. What does the Bible say about confessing? (Matt 10:32-33; Acts 8:37)
5. What does the Bible say about baptism? (Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; Acts 22:16; Rom. 6:3-6; Gal 3:27)

Mr. Miller, if you want to ask me questions and have me answer your questions, please show me the respect of answering my questions. You are so convinced that what I am saying is not true, the please, open the Bible and provide evidence refuting the passages that I have provided? IF you can't, then please stop standing on sand? Please, stop teaching that which you can not provide proof of?

Again, Mr. Miller, I hope that all who read this understands that I am not trying to sound ugly. I am not trying to be rude. I am simply standing up for what the Bible actually says. I say all that I say in love.

In Christ,

Robert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote]Sir, you continue to ask me questions and I have attempted to answer each and everyone. I have asked you several question that you refuse to even acknowledge. Why is that? Why do you refuse to answer questions that are simple. You claim that the Bible does not teach that one must be baptized in order to be saved. I have provide multiple passages that clearly refutes what you are saying. You are ignoring them. Why?[/quote]
I haven't answered the questions in your previous post because I don't trust your intentions, to be frank. You posted some verses that are all saying very similar things but you refuse to look at them in any other possible light. You are quite convinced of what you believe. Normally, I wouldn't have a problem with that. But again, I don't trust your intentions, so I do. You're acting as if you've earned a place on this forum, as if you have a right to have your questions answered, which you have failed to do.

[quote]I do not attempt to explain away Eph 2:8-10. I believe that passage to be completely true. We are saved by grace through faith. As Romans 6:26-31 teaches, it is not anything that we do that merits our salvation. Non of us can do anything that will EARN us salvation, but does that me we are not required to do certain things? Luke 17:10 clearly shows us that doing what has been commanded is not earning us anything, but is simply obeying the will of God.

You believe in Faith only? Then why did you quote Eph. 2:8? That passage clearly teaches that there is more to it than faith. That passage includes grace. Are we not saved by grace? If so, it can not be faith only. What about the "sinner's prayer?" Must one say that? If so, it is not by faith only. Must one repent as is taught in Luke 13:3 as well as Acts 3:19 and other passages? If so, then it is not by faith only. And what about the blood of Christ? Where does it come in? If it has a part, then it can not be by faith alone. Can you provide even 1 passage that states that we are saved by faith alone? I can provide a passage that clearly states that we are NOT saved by faith alone. James 2:24 says that we are not justified (saved) by faith only. How do you explain that, Mr. Miller.[/quote]

No, we are not to do anything outward to be saved, that is works salvation and most clearly taught against in Scripture. What must be done takes place in the heart and that is what prevents it from becomes of works that men might boast.

There isn't anything more than faith. Grace is what God has given, what is already offered to us and to every man who would believe. The faith aspect of that verse is the only that we do ourselves but it isn't an action, it's a state of the heart and mind. A conscience commitment and faith in God and repentance of sins. And no, you don't have to say the sinner's prayer. So it's still by faith then, isn't it? :wink The prayer is a manifestation of your heart, not the thing that saves you. The blood has nothing to do with you an me. It's what Christ has done. What on earth does it have to do with works?? Works refers to what you can do for salvation, which is nothing, that is abundantly clear. It is the works of Christ that bestows salvation to them that believe. Not to them that believe and are baptized, but it is the power of God unto salvation to them that BELIEVE.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Mr. Miller,

I have made every attempt in our discourse to be kind and civil with you. I have presented you with scripture to support what I have said and I have done so in love. I have not attacked you nor made any statements with any ill intentions. You have repeatedly refused to answer the questions I pose and now you attack me personally. I am sorry that you feel that you need to behave in such a manner. I will not return your treatment in kind.

Again, I have provide numerous passages that support what I have said. The passages clearly show that Iam not simply spouting off my personal opinion but am standing on the scriptures. I have twice shown you passages that clearly (word for word) refutes your statements.

1. You said that the Bible does not say that "he that believes and is baptized will be saved." In response, I provided Mark 16:16 which says "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." Who am I to believe, you or the word of God?
2. You said that we are saved by faith only. In response I provided James 2:24 which clearly states that we are not justified (saved) by faith only.

Sir, you have not even made an effort to explain why your words clearly contradict the word of God. I warn you that you should be very cautious in contradicting the word of God.

I have not earned the right to have my questions answered on here? Sir, I am not here to earn anything from you or anyone else. I am here to discuss the Bible. If you wish to have an open and honest discussion on this or any other subject then I will be glad to do so. If, on the other hand, you simply wish to ignore what is before you and attack me personally, I will wait until someone else wishes to discuss these matters.

I do ask that you examine the passages that have been provided. They say what they say.

In Christ,

Robert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry that you feel I'm being uncivil if I was uncivil. You also refuse to answer clear Scriptures that state it is by faith alone and merely reply with verses that include baptism in the picture. Obviously, there is a contradiction but you are unwilling to look at that contradiction and study out the verses to find out how they can be reconciled. There are verses saying two different things, at face value. However, you only post that contradiction without dealing with the other side of the issue.

You are not here to discuss the Bible. You are here to win us over to your faith + works salvation. If that is not the case, then kindly explain why you have not posted in any other thread besides this one, which you yourself started? Not only that, but you join up with the username "coc," which obviously stands for Church of Christ. You don't have the right for me to answer you when you come here in order to start a thread where you can challenge our beliefs and try to convert us. What right have you earned for us to respond to you? Maybe it's being influenced by family culture, maybe by Korean culture, I don't know, but I believe that a person has to earn the right to be accepted and respected and not expect everyone to treat them as if they have the right to be heard when you don't know them from Adam. And add on to the fact that you are coming to challenge us. So yes, I again have serious doubts about your motives for coming here and for engaging in this debate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

coc333,

Are there any other ways in which one must work to obey God in order for their salvation to be effectual?
Things like read Scripture X number of times per day? Pray X number of times in a week?

You've moved from your first post of faith in Christ and baptism to now also including many other ways one must obey in order to be saved.

I'm confused, please clarify for me. Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
coc333,

Are there any other ways in which one must work to obey God in order for their salvation to be effectual?
Things like read Scripture X number of times per day? Pray X number of times in a week?

You've moved from your first post of faith in Christ and baptism to now also including many other ways one must obey in order to be saved.

I'm confused, please clarify for me. Thank you.


Hello again trc,

God presented a plan of salvation that included His part (Grace) and our part (Obedience). If I want to be saved, then I must:

1. Believe (Heb 11:6; John 3:16) which said faith comes from hearing the word of God (Rom 10:17)
2. Repent of my sins (Acts 3:19; Luke 13:3)
3. Confess Christ (Matt 10:32-33; Acts 8:37)
4. Be baptized (immersed) for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38; 22:16; Mark 16:16; Gal 3:27 etc)

At this point I come in contact with the Blood of Christ and am added to His church (Acts 2:47)

This is a simple and easy plan that God has put forth. There are some who say that it is complicated but where is the complication? There are some who say that it is "working our way into heaven" in the sense that we are trying to merit our salvation. Again, I state that there is nothing that you nor I can ever do that will merit our salvation. NOTHING! But, again, I submit that we still must obey. Matt 7:21ff teaches that we must obey.

Now, if you are asking do we have to live in accordance with the Father's will once we have obeyed the Gospel, then I say yes. Certainly I can not obey the Gospel and then live like the devil and expect God to be pleased with me or accept me.

Must I pray? The Bible certainly teaches that I must. (1 Thes 5:17 etc) But, why would I not want to avail myself of such a wonderful blessing as to be able to speak to God?

Must I read the Bible? Of course, I must. 2 Tim 2:15; Psalm 119:97; Josh. 1:8 all teach us that we are to study and meditate upon the word of God. If the faith that is required comes from the word, then how else would we obtain that faith?

Trc, I think that you might be thinking that what I am saying is that the Bible teaches that we must do X number of things in order to earn our salvation. I AM NOT! We, again, can never earn our salvation. But, we must still obey the will of God.

None of this is complicated.

I would like to thank you again for your post. I hope that you will post again if you have any further questions.

In Christ,

Robert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm sorry that you feel I'm being uncivil if I was uncivil. You also refuse to answer clear Scriptures that state it is by faith alone and merely reply with verses that include baptism in the picture. Obviously, there is a contradiction but you are unwilling to look at that contradiction and study out the verses to find out how they can be reconciled. There are verses saying two different things, at face value. However, you only post that contradiction without dealing with the other side of the issue.

You are not here to discuss the Bible. You are here to win us over to your faith + works salvation. If that is not the case, then kindly explain why you have not posted in any other thread besides this one, which you yourself started? Not only that, but you join up with the username "coc," which obviously stands for Church of Christ. You don't have the right for me to answer you when you come here in order to start a thread where you can challenge our beliefs and try to convert us. What right have you earned for us to respond to you? Maybe it's being influenced by family culture, maybe by Korean culture, I don't know, but I believe that a person has to earn the right to be accepted and respected and not expect everyone to treat them as if they have the right to be heard when you don't know them from Adam. And add on to the fact that you are coming to challenge us. So yes, I again have serious doubts about your motives for coming here and for engaging in this debate.


Mr. Miller,

You "apoligize" and then you attack me again. That is hardly an apology. Sir, if you wish to have an honest and open discussion of the Bible, please let me know. If you wish to continue to act as you have, then please do not waste either of our time. I will no longer respond to this type of message.

I leave you with these kind words: Go back and look at the passages that I have provided. They are easy and clear and they are the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16).

In Christ,

Robert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for your final remarks. I am done here, as well. I hope that you will either become a contributing member here or seek a different board to convert. Most of us here are perfectly accepting of differing views in debate. However, when people come here with the sole purpose of conversion to a certain viewpoint, it is not so welcomed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm sorry that you feel I'm being uncivil if I was uncivil. You also refuse to answer clear Scriptures that state it is by faith alone and merely reply with verses that include baptism in the picture. Obviously, there is a contradiction but you are unwilling to look at that contradiction and study out the verses to find out how they can be reconciled. There are verses saying two different things, at face value. However, you only post that contradiction without dealing with the other side of the issue.

You are not here to discuss the Bible. You are here to win us over to your faith + works salvation. If that is not the case, then kindly explain why you have not posted in any other thread besides this one, which you yourself started? Not only that, but you join up with the username "coc," which obviously stands for Church of Christ. You don't have the right for me to answer you when you come here in order to start a thread where you can challenge our beliefs and try to convert us. What right have you earned for us to respond to you? Maybe it's being influenced by family culture, maybe by Korean culture, I don't know, but I believe that a person has to earn the right to be accepted and respected and not expect everyone to treat them as if they have the right to be heard when you don't know them from Adam. And add on to the fact that you are coming to challenge us. So yes, I again have serious doubts about your motives for coming here and for engaging in this debate.



If our salvation is determined by our works than why did Jesus die?
The message from the beginning of time was that there was no one worthy to be our sacrifice. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. That is why Jesus the Spotless Lamb of God came to be our propitiation(our substitute). The beautiful picture that God gave us when He asked Abraham to take his only son and offer him as a sacrifice. God didn't really want Abraham to sacrifice his son but rather it was a test of Abaham's faith and it became a beautiful picture of what was to come. And just like Abraham told Isaac all those many years prior to the death of Christ. "God will provide the lamb" And that is just what He did!!!

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had recieved the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If our salvation is determined by our works than why did Jesus die?
The message from the beginning of time was that there was no one worthy to be our sacrifice. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. That is why Jesus the Spotless Lamb of God came to be our propitiation(our substitute). The beautiful picture that God gave us when He asked Abraham to take his only son and offer him as a sacrifice. God didn't really want Abraham to sacrifice his son but rather it was a test of Abaham's faith and it became a beautiful picture of what was to come. And just like Abraham told Isaac all those many years prior to the death of Christ. "God will provide the lamb" And that is just what He did!!!

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had recieved the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

cos333,

I'm not sure you'll get any disagreement that once a person believes (by faith) on the Lord Jesus Christ that in obedience they should be Baptized. The HUGE disagreement would be that the act of (as you've said it) "getting wet" has nothing to do with God imputing to the believer the righteousness of Christ. That happens at the moment of believing on Christ, then the outward evidence and testimony of this belief would be the believer following the Lord Jesus Christ in baptism.

Concerning an explanation for Act 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." and other related verses. I don't find these to be troublesome in the least.

Let's you and I consider taking a trip together. We are going to travel from our current location to China for the Olympics. You tell me sure, but when we get to the plane you hesitate to get on the plane. I ask you if you believe the plane will get us from our location to China. You respond yes, you certainly do. You've seen others get on. I ask you to get on the plane, but you still will not get on the plane. You can tell me all day you "believe" the plane will get you to the destination; you see you have this knowledge in your intellect; but until you have the kind of belief to actually place your person on that plane, you don't have real heart belief that the plane will carry you to your destination. I believe this is a similar way in which one must "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" for salvation.

Now, let's continue our discussion. Finally we've spoken about the plane, how it can get you there safely and really will do the job. I say, my friend cos333 if you will get on the plane and take your seat then the plane will take us safely to our destination. You agree, get on the plane and sit down in your seat and we eventually arrive in China safe and sound. Did the sitting down in this example get us to our destination? Or did the believing in the heart and getting on the plane get us to our destination? Certainly when you get on the plane, you could choose not to follow the rules and not obey the captain and the plane will still be able to get you to your destination.....but you would not have obeyed and the trip certainly would not be pleasant.

This is as simple as it gets. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Good News and the Good News is looking to the completed work of Christ, his blood sacrifice for our sins and his atoning work....how do I lay hold on that; I have heart belief (not just head knowledge) and I place my soul in his hands. Is it possible to not follow Christ in baptism, yes..... I agree that would be disobeying God if one has the opportunity and does not get baptized; but it is not a condition for God making his salvation effectual for you. Will your fellowship, walk and "Christ following" be blessed and is that what God wants for you and is it best for you, NO....but this is true of each area that the believer may disobey God in after salvation; not just baptism.

Remember I John......
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Also, I'm curious as to which dispensation you believe we are currently in; and If you are a dispensationalist, what are the dispensations that God has worked through from the beginning of human history?

Thank you, TRC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
cos333,

I'm not sure you'll get any disagreement that once a person believes (by faith) on the Lord Jesus Christ that in obedience they should be Baptized. The HUGE disagreement would be that the act of (as you've said it) "getting wet" has nothing to do with God imputing to the believer the righteousness of Christ. That happens at the moment of believing on Christ, then the outward evidence and testimony of this belief would be the believer following the Lord Jesus Christ in baptism.

Concerning an explanation for Act 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." and other related verses. I don't find these to be troublesome in the least.

Let's you and I consider taking a trip together. We are going to travel from our current location to China for the Olympics. You tell me sure, but when we get to the plane you hesitate to get on the plane. I ask you if you believe the plane will get us from our location to China. You respond yes, you certainly do. You've seen others get on. I ask you to get on the plane, but you still will not get on the plane. You can tell me all day you "believe" the plane will get you to the destination; you see you have this knowledge in your intellect; but until you have the kind of belief to actually place your person on that plane, you don't have real heart belief that the plane will carry you to your destination. I believe this is a similar way in which one must "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" for salvation.

Now, let's continue our discussion. Finally we've spoken about the plane, how it can get you there safely and really will do the job. I say, my friend cos333 if you will get on the plane and take your seat then the plane will take us safely to our destination. You agree, get on the plane and sit down in your seat and we eventually arrive in China safe and sound. Did the sitting down in this example get us to our destination? Or did the believing in the heart and getting on the plane get us to our destination? Certainly when you get on the plane, you could choose not to follow the rules and not obey the captain and the plane will still be able to get you to your destination.....but you would not have obeyed and the trip certainly would not be pleasant.

This is as simple as it gets. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Good News and the Good News is looking to the completed work of Christ, his blood sacrifice for our sins and his atoning work....how do I lay hold on that; I have heart belief (not just head knowledge) and I place my soul in his hands. Is it possible to not follow Christ in baptism, yes..... I agree that would be disobeying God if one has the opportunity and does not get baptized; but it is not a condition for God making his salvation effectual for you. Will your fellowship, walk and "Christ following" be blessed and is that what God wants for you and is it best for you, NO....but this is true of each area that the believer may disobey God in after salvation; not just baptism.

Remember I John......
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Also, I'm curious as to which dispensation you believe we are currently in; and If you are a dispensationalist, what are the dispensations that God has worked through from the beginning of human history?

Thank you, TRC


trc123,

Thank you again for writing me. You show yourself to be a very polite person. Thank you.

Now, on to our discussion. The problem is that it is not that we "should" be baptized once we believe but that we "must" be baptized if we want to be saved. We can not get around that fact.

In Acts 2:37 the Jews there wanted to know what they had to do to be saved. Peter responded in 2:38 that they had to "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins..." Notice that he did not say repent and oh, you should be baptized as and outward sign of something that already happened inside of you. He said repent and be baptized. That is a command.

What about Saul (Paul)? He was on his way to Damascus to persecute the Jews. Christ appears before him (Acts 9 and 22). In Acts 22:10 Saul asked Jesus what he must do to be saved. What did Jesus tell him? He told him to go into the city and wait and it will be told him what he must do. Now, at this point Saul clearly believes because he goes into the city. Jesus then sends Ananias to him. Saul has been praying and fasting for 3 days (Acts 9:9-11). What did Ananias tell him when he went to him? Did he say, stop worrying Saul, you have already believed, you have fasted and prayed for three days. You are ok. NO! He told him to arise and be baptized... Why? Because that is what was required of him. It was not a suggestion. It was a command.

Now, what about the Philippian Jailer? In Acts 16:30, he asked Paul what he must do to be saved. What was his response? He told him that he must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. (VS 31) Now, you might say, well he did not say be baptized. But, if we read further we find something very interesting. Verse 32 says that they taught him the word of God. Remember what Romans 10:17 says? It says that faith comes from hearing the word of God. So, they tell him to believe and then teach him what he needs to know to have faith and what does he then do? Verse 33 tells us that he was baptized. He was told that he must believe and then was taught so that he would have the proper faith and he was baptized and at that point he was added to the Lord's church (Acts 2:47).

These are easy examples to follow and they all teach that we must be baptized. We have many other passages that teach the necessity of baptism. Again, Romans 6:3-6; Gal 3:27; Mark 16:16 etc. These passages do not teach us that we should be baptized if we would like but that we must be baptized if we want to be saved.

The illistration that you provided just does not apply to the need for baptism.

There are three biblical dispensations. The patriaricle, mosaic and Christian. We are now under the Christian dispensation. We will be under that dispensation until Christ comes to get His people and the earth is burt up with fire.

In Christ,

Robert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Who's Online   1 Member, 0 Anonymous, 18 Guests (See full list)

Article Categories

About Us

Since 2001, Online Baptist has been an Independent Baptist website, and we exclusively use the King James Version of the Bible. We pride ourselves on a community that uplifts the Lord.

Contact Us

You can contact us using the following link. Contact Us or for questions regarding this website please contact @pastormatt or email James Foley at jfoley@sisqtel.net

Android App

Online Baptist has a custom App for all android users. You can download it from the Google Play store or click the following icon.

×
×
  • Create New...