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coc333

What must I do to be saved?

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i was able to find the scripture that best puts the whole thing in perspective for me. In Acts chapter 8, the Apostle Philip is sent of God unto a Eunich in the desert of Gaza. He preached Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected. When the Eunich asked what was to stop him from being baptized, the Apostle told him point blank that he had to believe with all his heart and then be baptized. This account starts in v.26.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.


God Bless

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i was able to find the scripture that best puts the whole thing in perspective for me. In Acts chapter 8' date=' the Apostle Philip is sent of God unto a Eunich in the desert of Gaza. He preached Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected. When the Eunich asked what was to stop him from being baptized, the Apostle told him point blank that he had to believe with all his heart and [u']then be baptized. This account starts in v.26.


God Bless


The die hards that believe baptizing saves a person cannot get past this verse, its their stumbling block.

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:38 (KJV)

Them in this verse.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16 (KJV)

They just can't help but believe that this verse means if one is not baptized they are damned even though it does not state such a fact.

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Now' date=' I will say this: if you guys are going to do nothing but present the same tired and disproven arguments while ignoring the truth then there is really no reason for me to say any more on this subject to you. [/quote']
Here's a few questions I'm tempted to ask, which you can reply to if you still want to:

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i was able to find the scripture that best puts the whole thing in perspective for me. In Acts chapter 8' date=' the Apostle Philip is sent of God unto a Eunich in the desert of Gaza. He preached Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected. When the Eunich asked what was to stop him from being baptized, the Apostle told him point blank that he had to believe with all his heart and [u']then be baptized. This account starts in v.26.


God Bless


Ed,

In your post you seem to suggest that I am saying that Batism comes before faith. If that is what you are saying, then allow me to correct your misconception. I have not ever said such a thing. If you will go back and look at my post then you will easily see that I do not make such a statement. Faith does come before baptism but baptism does come before salvation. I refer you back to my previous post where there is ample support for what I have said.

Also the passage in Acts 8 does not help your cause. Let us look at the facts. The ethopian eunich was study the word (Isaiah 53 to be specific). Philip came to him and asked if he understood. He said how could he if he was not taught by some man. Philip then began with Isaiah 53 and taught him Jesus.

Now let us consider a few things.

1. This man was not a Christian; he did not even understand what was being taught in Isaiah 53.
2. Isaiah 53 is speaking of the suffering of Christ and makes no mention of baptism.
3. We do not read anything that says that Philip said anything about baptism; he taught Christ to the eunich.
4 Yet dispite these truths, the eunich said here is water what doth hender me to be baptized. Why? Why would he ask a question that was unrelated to what was taught to him?

Truth is it was not unrelated. It would seem that to teach Jesus is to teach baptism. Otherwise the eunich had no reason to ask that question.

Open your eyes sir. See what is clearly before you.

In Christ,

Robert

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And the person in the hospital or fox hole that exercises saving faith in Christ as Messiah and then passes on unable to be Baptized?

You still haven't answered that.....

Also, the thief on the cross you have said was in a different dispensation; but if what you are saying that once a person believes that an act of obedience is necessary to salvation (faith then baptism); what act of obedience did the thief perform to access that salvation?

Abraham's act of obedience after faith in God for deliverance was to move to offer his son as a sacrifice. The children of Israel's act of obedience in the wilderness when the snake was lifted up was to look at the snake after faith in God for deliverance.

So, if all of these acts of obedience are a requirement to access salvation; what act of obedience (other than believe Christ as Messiah) did the thief on the cross perform in order to insure Christ was not a liar? Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

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Hello again,

This is a general response to the postings that have been made since my last post. Since each of you have ignored the clear evidence that disproves each argument that you continue to make, I take that as a statement that not one of you are interested in the truth but simply in the false teaching of a denomination. That is of course a decision that each of you must make for yourself.

I do feel compelled to clear up on statement that you made Jerry. You say that the people you have spoken to who believe in the necessity of baptism for salvation has upon your questioning them said that they would wait until Sunday if it was say Thursday when someone wanted to be baptized. This of course would present the person claiming to believe in baptism in a bit of a contradiction. I do not know who you have been speaking with, but I can assure you that speaking for myself and everyone I know within the Lord's church, I would not make such a statement. It would not matter the least what time of day or night it was if someone wanted to obey the Gospel. I would be there and gladly help them to do so. Let me say it again...it could be 3:00 in the moring or any other time and I would get out of bed and go baptize someone or even go watch as someone else did. Jerry, baptism is taught as being necessary to salvation. I have provided multiple verses that not one person on here has been able to refute. It is important and any Christian would gladly get up and help a person obey the Gospel. If he/she would not, then they show themselves to be poor servants of the Lord.

Now, I will say this: if you guys are going to do nothing but present the same tired and disproven arguments while ignoring the truth then there is really no reason for me to say any more on this subject to you. I hope that those who are overseeing this site will leave this thread up so that anyone who wishes to see the truth can. I am here and will continue to post and will gladly answer anything that you have to offer that is new.

In Christ,

Robert


See, Robert, this post is really arrogant. In your post on the 1000 year reign you implied that you think we should study the Bible with an open mind. But, just like I said there, this shows that you really don't mean that. What you mean is that we should all line up and say that, oh, yes, Robert has shown us the error of our ways. But you haven't done that. All you have shown, again, is the ability to twist scripture and then to accuse people of ignoring truth. But I don't think we are the ones ignoring truth....

Acts 9
And there he found a certain man named Aeneas, which had kept his bed eight years, and was sick of the palsy.
34And Peter said unto him, Aeneas, Jesus Christ maketh thee whole: arise, and make thy bed. And he arose immediately.
35And all that dwelt at Lydda and Saron saw him, and turned to the Lord.

No mention of baptism at all, not even after they turned to the Lord (as is the case of every baptism...after belief in Christ.

Acts 13:
38Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Him that believes, not him that believes and is baptised
43Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. Continue in the grace of God, not in the grace of God and be baptised
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

Not a word about baptsim.

Other verses have been shown to you. You are choosing to ignore them. Perhaps you should have the open mind you require of us...

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The way I've always look at baptism is a sign of obedience.. but it isn't required.

I mean if Jesus came up to you, knowing that you have faith in him, tell you to go get baptize, would you tell him "NO" to his face??? no, you would obey him.

Baptism is a symbol of our faith and his washing sins away. Which is the reason he ask us to do it.

But.. if we don't have a choice, like dying, but accepted him before anyone got to know about it, we still get to heaven without baptism. Because if we survive, we would live for Jesus.

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Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Romans 4 is a chapter emphasizing throughout it the importance and vitality of faith.

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?(This verse shows a progression. When we are saved, we call on Christ as a manifestation of our salvation, for "whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." So we have the final result back to its source. How shall they call if they haven't believed? How shall they believe if they have not heard? How shall they hear if there is no one to tell them? Notice, there was no "how can they be baptized if they have not called" in that verse. Why? Because it is something that takes place at believing, a baptism of God's Holy Spirit and the physical baptism is unimportant to salvation but a outward representation to those around us what has happened.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.(We are baptized by what? We are baptized by one Spirit, by the Spirit of God.)

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

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To everyone on this site:

It has been suggested that I have been arragant in my post. This has not been my desire nor is it my feelings. I apologize if it has come across as such. I do not apologize for speaking the truth about the Bible. I will not do so today nor ever. The bible teaches what it teaches and I have supported my post with scriptures. I stand by my statement that at least some on here are not really interested in seeing the truth. And that is each person's choice.

The Bible supports the necessity of baptism in salvation. I have provided scripture after scripture to support that statement. There have been attempts to disprove this truth and much of the scripture that has been used to disprove the necessity of baptism has in fact disproved the thought that it is not needed.

I will leave this subject at this point. IF anyone here would like to discuss this topic or the other topic that I started, feel free to PM me and I will be glad to futher study these or any other topic. Perhaps study in a more private setting is best.

Again, it has not been my desire to be arragant but simply to open up the Bible, study it and perhaps to help others come to the truth. Yes, that is my desire. Why else study the Bible if it is not to help others and yourself come to a better understanding of the truth?

In Christ,

Robert

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I wonder since I have been baptized, but just don't believe it is necessary.. Does coc333 thinks I am saved? Or do I have to believe baptism is required for salvation in order for my baptism to be worthy?

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I wonder since I have been baptized' date=' but just don't believe it is necessary.. Does coc333 thinks I am saved? Or do I have to believe baptism is required for salvation in order for my baptism to be worthy?[/quote']

I had asked that same question in the thread a few days ago. He didn't have a very clear response!

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He can't answer it because it would attack his theory. You can't teach baptism being required for salvation without attacking the faith taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches a faith in God alone for salvation and yet if baptism is required then you are forced to have faith in your belief and in your baptism.

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He can't answer it because it would attack his theory. You can't teach baptism being required for salvation without attacking the faith taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches a faith in God alone for salvation and yet if baptism is required then you are forced to have faith in your belief and in your baptism.


Spot On! :goodpost:

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Here's my no-doubt rather naive and uninformed heathen perspective on what coc333 has suggested--and it builds on what I asked about 7 posts ago. Kevin points out that there are some verses that appear to say that baptism is necessary for salvation and there are others that mention only faith/grace. coc333 has reconciled these two supposedly conflicting groups of verses by saying that the ones which do not mention baptism also do not specifically deny its necessity. Therefore, by taking the baptism verses at face value and interpreting the non-baptism verses as simply telling us half the story--i.e. faith is involved but tune in later for the rest--we can reconcile these two groups of verses.

The problem I have is that I've been told the Bible says all scripture is useful and therefore we presumably should be able to point the finger at any verse and ask the question: what is the teaching here? According to coc333 we have loads of verses that only tell half the story in that they talk about salvation whilst omitting to mention that baptism is essential. In fact, going out on a limb here, if there are no verses supporting belief+baptism in Matthew or John, and I have seen none posted here, then it would even be necessary for coc333 to argue that entire gospel books do not teach the whole fundamental plan of salvation. Whilst all this is possible, it does beg some quite essential questions: what is the meaning of the supposedly 'semi-salvation' verses and what is the purpose of entire gospels (Matthew and John) if belief+baptism is true?

Feel free to correct me at length. ;-)

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The thing is, does the Bible contradict itself? My answer to that is no, it does not. I can't answer that question for anyone else.

That said, them lets take a look at some verses.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:36 (KJV)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)

These verses is very simple. John 3:36 says, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life," it says nothing about baptizing, if it take baptizing to be saved them this verse is 100% wrong.

Plus this same verse says, " he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him," This verse says he that believeth not shall not see life, it does not say he who is not baptized shall not see life.

Romans 10:9-10, not where in them does it put baptizing saves a person.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mark 16:16 (KJV)

This is one of their faviorte verses, it does no say, he who is not baptizd shall be damned. it does say he that believeth not shall be damned, whihc lines up with John 3:36 and Rmans 10:9-10 which we previously looked at.

Now this verse.

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:38 (KJV)

If it were not for other verses, which are very plain such as the ones I spoke of above, we just might all think that this verse teaches one has to be baptized to be save, but if being baptized to be saved contradicts some very plain verses, them it must not be teaching baptizing saves a person. So what does it mean.

Its clear, we are baptized because we have already had remission of sin and have been already saved.

A good way to understand this is like this. If I say I took an aspirin for a headache everyone of you would know what I meant, that I took that aspirin because I had a headache, not to get a headache. So this verse means I was baptized because I already had remission of my sin, not for remission of sin.

Besides that, in this verse for means because of.

Plus, if one will study it out, in the Bible we have the example many times, 1st one is saved, them they're baptized, always a saved person getting baptized. Its the 1st step of obedience a person can take after they have been saved. And anyone who refuse to be baptized, and there is not a very good reason they do not get baptized, them I question their salvation. For the Bible says.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:11 (KJV)

The only reason I can think of to keep a person who has the opportunity to be baptized, yet refuses, their ashamed.

When I led my 81 year-old father-in-law to Christ, I explained baptizing to him. The next Sunday morning he was in church, when the invitation was given he stepped out and walked down to the pastor telling him he had accept Jesus as his Savior. That night alone with his 14 year-old grandson he was baptized.

Something about a person, when they truly have been saved, they want to do what is right in the sight of God and its not embarrassing to them.

I might add, that morning after church I got 2 phone calls, they were asking me why I did not tell the everyone about Coy accepting Jesus as his Savior. I told them it was not my place to do that. If anyone was to tell about it, it was Coy's place to. I might add, that next Sunday morning I was at the church I pastor and Coy went to his local church that his wife was a member of, so I did not know he walked the aisle until I received the phone calls, yes, hearing he did this thrilled me to death, but more especially my wife his daughter.

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If it were not for other verses' date=' which are very plain such as the ones I spoke of above, we just might all think that this verse teaches one has to be baptized to be save, but if being baptized to be saved contradicts some very plain verses, them it must not be teaching baptizing saves a person. So what does it mean.[/quote']
Good post John! So coc333 has done the opposite of what you have above: he has taken Acts 2:38 at face value (like you say we all might if it were alone) and then reinterpreted the many plain verses that don't mention baptism to make them agree with it. But this interpretation makes all those verses incomplete--in terms of what is necessary for salvation--so we would then need to ask why they are even there!?!

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The original question was, "What must I do to be saved ?"

You cannot take one or two verses and make a doctrine out of it. It has to be supported by the whole Bible. Water baptism is not a condition for salvation! It is a witness after we are saved. From the beginning of scripture until the end, salvation has always been by faith alone.

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Yet some Baptist teach that Acts 2:38 teaches that one is saved by water baptism at one time, that there's more than one way to be save at different times in the history of man.

Yet there is only one way for man to be saved since the begining of time, even Abraham was saved jsut like a person is saved today. Byt faith.

We are saved by believeing that the Savior Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, Abraham and the rest that were born before Christ believe on Christ by believeing that Chrst woudl one day die on the cross for their sins.

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Romans 4:2 (KJV)

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Romans 4:3 (KJV)

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Romans 4:9 (KJV)

I'm going to change 2 words in the above verse just to show something.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the baptized only, or upon the unbaptized also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

the point it, circumcision, nor uncircumcision, not baptized or unbaptized never saved a person, but believing, faith, that is what does it.

Romans 4:9 (KJV)

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Romans 4:12 (KJV)

Abraham had the faith even when he was uncircumcised.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Romans 4:16 (KJV)

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Romans 4:17 (KJV)

1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 5:1-2 (KJV)

Seems some think that this believeing on, or putting ones faith in Jesus Christ, is jsut to easy, that they must do something in order to be saved, so some teach one is saved by baptizing and works.

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it seem that every religion believe in something first. Like they believe baptism saves.. noticed the believe came first for them... yet they don't acknowledge that? What happen if they don't believe in Jesus and baptism? They would never be baptized.


Faith come first. Especially when comes to believing that Jesus saves.

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Seems some think that this believeing on' date=' or putting ones faith in Jesus Christ, is jsut to easy, that they must do something in order to be saved, so some teach one is saved by baptizing and works.[/quote']

I hear you and concur.......while it seems "easy" to believe; I'm of the opinion that it is quite a difference between having saving faith/belief and the formula prayer that is touted by so many in soul-winning endeavors and Sunday morning evangelistic preaching the last 25 years.

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Guest Guest
I acknowledge Faith come first. And that's all I need. Especially when comes to believing that Jesus saves.



:amen::goodpost: Yes! Baptism, as others have said is merely an "outward showing" of our obedience to Jesus Christ "only."

Hello, Coc. :smile May I ask you about what you believe about "death bed" believers? Do you think people can be saved from the death bed? Also, those who cannot be immersed into water for health reasons? The aged? Those in nursing home facilities? The handicapped? I think you know what I mean. :smile How does the Church of Christ respond to these questions? Are these poor souls on their way to Hell according to the doctrine of the Church of Christ?

Epeshians 2:7-9...That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. KJV 1611 AV.

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Hello again TRC. With all due respect, you can accuse me of a lot of things but you can't say I haven't been clear about what the Bible teaches on this subject.

I am trying to limit my comments to PM with those who wish to discuss these things with me. Since the question was asked, I will answer it by simply previding the passage that answers it. Acts 2:38. If anyone wishes to discuss this further, feel free to PM me and I would be glad to do so.

In Christ,

Robert

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