Why Did Paul Say to Follow Him?

[beameup]

2 hours ago, Alan said:

 The above verse quoted by beameup, James 2:24, is miss-used and taken out of context and has a faulty interpretation of salvation in the Tribulation Period.

Why not quote James 2:18, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew me my faith by my works."

Why not quote James 2:22, "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was made perfect?

If so, and a "future" group of disciples had to endure to the end of the Tribulation (following the Rapture), to be eternally saved, then the Lord Jesus Christ did not die for them and the "future group of disciples" could "boast" in heaven they were made righteous by their own merit or works and God is in 'debt' to them and would have to give them eternal salvation. And, these 'future groups of disciples could 'glory' in their own works for salvation.

The teaching that a 'future group of disciples who would have to endure to the end of the Tribulation' is heresy and contrary to the Old Testament and New Testament doctrine of justification by grace through faith. I would suggest to our brethren who believe in such a teaching to re-study the doctrine of justifcation by grace through faith  in the book of Romans. The doctrine of justification, as revealed in Romans, by faith is the only means of eternal justification for anybody, in any age, and in any country: this includes the Jewish people in the Tribulation Period. 

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." Romans 4:1 and 2

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Romans 4:4

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. by what law? of works? Nay: but of the law of faith." Romans 3:27

 

 

I have no problem discerning the obvious contradictions and the reason that many such "contradictions" exist.

[swathdiver]

54 minutes ago, beameup said:

Most "assume" that after the Rapture that the world will immediately go into the Tribulation.

That's not an assumption, that's bible!

[John81]

There are some who confuse the Tribulation and Great Tribulation which also causes problems.

I'm curious why it seems some get more riled up over differing views of the end times than they do the constant promotion of false gospels. In Scripture we see a great emphasis upon exposing false gospels, naming those who promote false gospels and clear separations being made from the promoters of false gospels.

If people get salvation wrong then hell awaits them along with all those they lead astray.

Even if a person says they believe in a pre-trib rapture yet if they don't believe the one and only means of salvation for all time they are lost and leading others away from Christ by their false gospels.

[Alimantado]

36 minutes ago, John81 said:

There are some who confuse the Tribulation and Great Tribulation which also causes problems.

I'm curious why it seems some get more riled up over differing views of the end times than they do the constant promotion of false gospels. In Scripture we see a great emphasis upon exposing false gospels, naming those who promote false gospels and clear separations being made from the promoters of false gospels.

If people get salvation wrong then hell awaits them along with all those they lead astray.

Even if a person says they believe in a pre-trib rapture yet if they don't believe the one and only means of salvation for all time they are lost and leading others away from Christ by their false gospels.

Gotta say, John, the last few weeks on here have felt like an eye-opener. Though the eschatology wars have been difficult to watch, there have always been eschatology debates/discussions on OB. But when it came to soteriology, I had always throught that folk on here--and IFBs in general--were united in believing that salvation is and always has been by grace through faith alone.

Multiple threads and posts proclaiming works salvation--be it for times past or times future--with relative silence from forum regulars who have traditionally been quick and rigorous in defending OB's stance on free will and end times doctrines is something I never expected to see. But it might just be because we are down to about a dozen regular posters.

[No Nicolaitans]

Well, folks have their proof verses, and no amount of context or comparing scripture with scripture can be used to show them their mistakes. Their context is their single verses (or in many cases, only one section of a single verse even when the verse explains and nullifies their belief). Their comparing of scripture with scripture only extends to comparing their single proof verses with their other single proof verses. 

The pinnacle of this promotion of different salvation methods was recently reached (in my opinion) when an agnostic member here also began promoting such.

With that said, I leave this portion of scripture for everyone. Please apply this to your daily walk with Christ...after all, it was written by Paul. Oh, and it promotes yet another salvation method.

Colossians 2:21-22b

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22  Which all are to perish with the using;)

[Pastor Scott Markle]

7 hours ago, beameup said:

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.  Acts 2:38 

Acts 2:38 -- "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins."

Hmmmm.  So then, is it repentance and (faith in) the name of Jesus Christ that results in "the remission of sins"?  Or, is it repentance and (the religious work of) baptism that results in "the remission of sins"?

Edited January 18, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle

[MountainChristian]

On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 11:36 AM, beameup said:

For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the [direct] revelation of Jesus Christ.  Gal 1:11-12

So Jesus stepped down off of his throne, left heaven, returned to earth, and gave Paul one on one classes?

In reality the Holy Ghost revealed Jesus unto Paul.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

[beameup]

I find it somewhat amusing that so many just "assume" (because it is often repeated and repeated to them) that the Tribulation immediately follows the Rapture.  I also find it somewhat amusing that many simply "assume" that those saved in the first half of the Tribulation and those saved in the second half (ie: Great Tribulation) are "saved" in the same manner, or that there one and only one "Rapture".

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.  Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles 1 Corinthians 14:37-38

 

Edited February 22, 2016 by beameup

[Pastor Scott Markle]

6 hours ago, beameup said:

I find it somewhat amusing that so many just "assume" (because it is often repeated and repeated to them) that the Tribulation immediately follows the Rapture. 

This is not based upon an assumption, but upon Bible study.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:2-3 we are taught that the Day of Christ cannot begin until the "man of sin" is revealed.  Now, this Day of Christ is explained in Revelation 6:16-17 as "the great day" of "the wrath of the Lamb."  So then, we understand that the Day of Christ is a phrase that refers to the seven year Tribulation Period.  As such, the seven year Tribulation Period cannot begin until the "man of sin" is revealed.  So then, how shall this "man of sin" be revealed?  Daniel 9:27 reveals the answer by teaching us that "the prince that shall come" will "confirm the covenant with many [from among Daniel's people, the children of Israel] for one week [for a seven year period]."  Even so, this revelation of the "man of sin," "the prince that shall come" is itself the very initiation of the final seven year period of the "seventy weeks" of Daniel 9:24-27, which is the seven years of the Tribulation Period.  As such, we understand that the seven year Tribulation Period begins immediately with this revelation of the "man of sin."

Yet 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 teaches us that the "man of sin" cannot be revealed until the One who now withholds "the mystery of iniquity" be "taken out of the way."  Now, "the mystery of iniquity" is already working to take over; and the only power that is preventing "the mystery of iniquity" from taking over is the One who now holds it back.  Even so, as soon as the One who now withholds is "taken out of the way," the power of "the mystery of iniquity" that "doth already work" will move with the force of a raging flood; and "then" (at that time) the "man of sin" shall be revealed.

6 hours ago, beameup said:

I also find it somewhat amusing that many simply "assume" that those saved in the first half of the Tribulation and those saved in the second half (ie: Great Tribulation) are "saved" in the same manner . . .

No need for any form of assumption here, since I do not believe that anyone will be getting saved during the second half of the seven year Tribulation Period, but that all unbelievers during that time will be under God's work of "strong delusion" to believe the lie of "the man of sin" wherein he shall claim to be god, as per 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12. (See also Revelation 13:8)

6 hours ago, beameup said:

. . . or that there is one and only one "Rapture".

Really???  And what future "catching up" is revealed in the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God other than that in 1 Thessalonians 1:13-18?

[Jim_Alaska]

The cartoon about "thinking outside of the box" is priceless, simply because it is an apt example of where heretical teaching comes from.

You would have to think "outside of the box" [Bible] to come up with doctrines that fly in the face of actual Scripture and sound IFB teaching to come up with the obvious distortions and wrong interpretations posted by "some" in this thread.

It is amazing to me that "some" who claim to be IFB can deviate so far from the teaching of those that have gone before us, and yet still want to be known as one with us.

Scripture warns us in many places of this kind of danger.

 Jude 1:3 ¶ Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 
 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 

 Gal 2:4-5  And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 
 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

 Gal 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 
 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

 Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 

So then, is there specific teaching of those that have gone before us, those that have held to the pure teaching of God's word even at the cost of their lives that we are to hold to? Does Scripture tell us to follow the teaching of faithful men of God?

 2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

 Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

 Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

 Heb 2:1 ¶ Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

There is a place where truth resides, it is the local church, this  is why church doctrine and church history is so critically important.

 1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

There will always be those among us that will seek to subvert people by twisting and wresting Scripture to their own liking and brand of Theology. It is important that we understand that all Scripture is Inspired of God.  2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

As such, it is imperative to include those things recorded in Scripture and taught by those that are recorded in Scripture.

 

[beameup]

14 hours ago, beameup said:

I find it somewhat amusing that so many just "assume" (because it is often repeated and repeated to them) that the Tribulation immediately follows the Rapture.  I also find it somewhat amusing that many simply "assume" that those saved in the first half of the Tribulation and those saved in the second half (ie: Great Tribulation) are "saved" in the same manner, or that there one and only one "Rapture".

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.  Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles 1 Corinthians 14:37-38

 

For example, it is blatantly obvious to some here that some elements of Augustinian (RCC) "Replacement Theology" have even crept into the IFB ranks. 

As also in all his [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood,

which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest [wrestle], as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16

[MountainChristian]

1 hour ago, beameup said:

For example, it is blatantly obvious to some here that some elements of Augustinian (RCC) "Replacement Theology" have even crept into the IFB ranks. 

As also in all his [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood,

which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest [wrestle], as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16

2 Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Peter had read the letter that Paul sent them. Peter is agreeing with Paul the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation. Peter agrees with Paul its Jesus' death that saves us from sin. Longsuffering of our Lord was the cross. Destruction comes when people reject the Lamb of God and spend eternity in Hell.

[beameup]

On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 8:54 PM, John81 said:

Take note that Covenanter was banned from this site yet in all his views which were deemed unacceptable he was clear there was only one means of salvation, just as Scripture says. False teaching on salvation is far more dangerous than various views regarding the end times.

Peter, Paul, James, John, all the other Apostles and Jesus all taught one and the same Gospel, the only means of salvation for anyone ever.

There is only "one means" of salvation; however, the Body of Christ is SEALED by the Holy Spirit. 

Abraham "had the gospel preached to him" - Gal 3:8

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them [Israel in the wilderness]: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.  Hebrews 4:1-2

Edited February 23, 2016 by beameup

[Pastor Scott Markle]

8 hours ago, beameup said:

There is only "one means" of salvation; however, the Body of Christ is SEALED by the Holy Spirit. 

Yet the conflict over this matter has NEVER been whether believers from different "dispensations" might experience different blessings of salvation. 

The conflict over this matter has CONTINUALLY been over the required means of salvation, as follows:

1.  Is eternal salvation by God's grace alone through an individual's faith alone in God's Savior?

2.  Is eternal salvation by God's grace through an individual's faith in God's Savior along with an individual's performance of certain works of righteousness?

3.  Is eternal salvation by human merit alone through an individual's performance of certain works of righteousness?

On the forum at the present time, it does not appear that the third of these options is being propagated.  However, on the forum at the present time, it DOES appear that the second of the options IS being propagate, at least doctrinally concerning certain peoples during certain "dispensations."

Yet in God's Holy Word God the Holy Spirit inspired the apostle Paul to declare the following in Romans 11:6 --

1.  "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace."

2.  "But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is not more work."

(Note: It is even worthy of notice that Romans 11:6 was presented in its immediate context concerning Israelite believers.)

Even so, God the Holy Spirit through inspiration has informed us that by definition it is spiritually impossible to mix grace and works as the means for salvation.  As such, we are taught by the authority of God the Holy Spirit Himself through the Holy Scriptures that the second option above is a spiritual impossibility and a Biblical falsehood.  Indeed, anyone who teaches such an option in their doctrine of the gospel for any peoples during any "dispensation" is teaching a Biblical falsehood, and that concerning the gospel itself. 

Galatians 1:8-9 -- "But though we [including even the apostles], or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel [any other than the gospel of "the grace of Christ," as per verses 6-7] unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

[beameup]

13 hours ago, MountainChristian said:

2 Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Peter had read the letter that Paul sent them. Peter is agreeing with Paul the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation. Peter agrees with Paul its Jesus' death that saves us from sin. Longsuffering of our Lord was the cross. Destruction comes when people reject the Lamb of God and spend eternity in Hell.

Yes, I'm sure that Paul had occasion to address his kinsmen, as the promised Kingdom (on earth) was "at stake".  It is understandable that 2 Peter 3:15-16 would be mentioning this.  However, the revelations given to Paul by the risen Christ, from heaven, seem to far surpass any "revelations" given to the other Apostles ("hard to be understood").

And unto the Jews I [Paul] became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

1 Cor 9:20