The Widow's Mites

[Jim_Alaska]

15 minutes ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

The twisting of the Scripture is clearly on behalf of Scott, Jim & Alan,... not by me.  Easy to see why.  Their making the widow joyous and making Jesus happy at the destitute widow's actions helps to convince others to part with money that is otherwise needed for one to survive on.

Any twisting of Scripture has come about through the purely personal opinions of SFIC. The Scripture in question does not support his flawed understanding of the facts that are plainly laid out in plain language. He has to invent circumstances based solely on his own bias against giving in any manner, at any time and for any reason.

Historical Baptist teaching on this Scripture is in direct opposition to the flawed reasoning of SFIC. When asked to prove otherwise he pulls up a sermon by John MacArthur, a died in the wool Community Church charlatan.

Contrary to his assertions concerning Bros' Scott, Alan and I that I quoted, he steadfastly refuses to entertain any possibility that Jesus was teaching a contrast between the rich who gave some and the widow who gave all. It is in this sense that we see the commendation of our Lord to and for this poor widow.

As for me, I have no reason to try to convince others to part with their money. That has no place in this thread what-so-ever, but is simply another ploy on his part to distract from the real teaching of this text.

But then again, this is from the man who, in the very beginning stated that no one would ever convince him that Jesus was commending the poor widow. This statement was absolutely correct and bears solid testimony to the fact of his being unteachable.   2Tim 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 

[Alan]

35 minutes ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

Scott has NOT proven his contentions at all.  There is absolutely NOTHING in the English text, nor in the Greek that indicates the widow gave her last two mites willingly.  

Nor is there any indication in the text that Jesus was commending the widow.

But, the text does indicate the widow was robbed, put in a beggarly position as I have maintained since my OP.  The widow was made destitute by a corrupt Temple system, a system that Jesus identified as "a den of thieves".

The twisting of the Scripture is clearly on behalf of Scott, Jim & Alan,... not by me.  Easy to see why.  Their making the widow joyous and making Jesus happy at the destitute widow's actions helps to convince others to part with money that is otherwise needed for one to survive on.

SFIC,

You are the one who departed from the truth and raised doubt concerning the veracity of the commmendation of the Lord Jesus and you are the one who has used unsupported scriptual asscusations against the widow. You are the one who twisted the plain teaching of the Bible by twisting the scriptures and the Greek meanings to prove your own interpretation of the scriptures.

Pastor Markle did prove his contentions and you are unwilling to accept the truth of the matter. Pastor Markle used the English texts that are mentioned in this discussions, and the appropriate Greek meanings, truthfully, honestly and sincerely.

The widow was not 'robbed' as you contend. She was publicly honoroured by the Lord Jesus Christ and her rewards in heaven will not only be far above the rewards of the scribes and other hypocrites but will probably far above than a lot of us in our age. The Lord Jesus plainly said, "... but she of her penury hath cast in all her living that she had." Luke 21:1

As I stated in my previous posts, the widow is a shining example of all of us.

Alan

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Hmmm, there is nothing in the text that indicates willingness and/or desire to give by the widow.  Yet you claim that is what happened.

 

the texts do show the poor widow was made destitute by the corrupt Temple system.  Yet, you want to force a commendation by Jesus.

 

strange.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Standing Firm In Christ

[wretched]

I don't see it as commendation either, although I admit at first glance looking only at the statement made by the Lord I thought so from a pretext in my mind when I first considered it.

The chapter context and certainly the context of all the Gospels say otherwise.

When considering the overall context of rebuke for the greed of filthy lucre of these religious leaders, it sheds a different light on Jesus' statement here about the widow as an objective one, as if He were merely stating the facts about how she gave all she had but the overall context is how she was sinfully manipulated by these leaders.

I often get angered to hear of how poor families that come to IFB churches for help are turned away from the coffers by the money handlers with the excuse that they can't be trusted and will only keep coming back. But when it comes to tithing, the same people will angrily say, it doesn't matter what is done with the money, you are tithing to the Lord.

I think the context of the Gospels overall indicate our Lord's Will in giving is to give to the brothers and sisters in need and the widows and fatherless even if we are being despite-fully used in some or many cases LONG BEFORE he would want us to provide filthy lucre to supposed leaders.

And I am in no way implying that anyone in this thread is like this but I have known of some in the past and hear of whole generations of them coming up in the last 20 years.

 

[Alan]

In every IFB  church I have been a member of I have always seen the pastor help those in financial need and have never even heard of the 'robbing' of God's saints. I have seen pastors help those in finanical need so many times I find it hard to read, and believe, some of these posts on this thread. In all of the IFB churches that I have been affliliated with, either by membership, or, as a missionary, I have always seen the pastor use the tithes and offerings of God's saints properly, spiritually and pleasing to the Lord. As a missionary I have personally, numerous times, been with a pastor to help those in financial need, whether they were a church member or not, a lot of times using their own funds. And, if the need was greater than what the pastor had in his personal wallet, he contacted the church treasurer to use church funds.

Yes, there are exceptions to this rule and it seems that SFIC is using the exceptions to dishonor the scriptures and IFB churches in general.  

Alan

 

 

Edited December 30, 2015 by Alan
correct a phrase; and a word.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

• It is not I that is guilty of "dishonoring the Scriptures.

Rather, those who "dishonor the Scriptures" are those who use Mark 12:41-44 & Luke 21:1-4 as proof-text that the widow was willfully giving and that Jesus was commending said giving when there is nothing in said texts that indicates such.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Standing Firm In Christ

[heartstrings]

1 Kings 17:8-24 Speaks of another widow who gave all she had, in faith. Just like the widow in 1 Kings 17, the widow in Luke 21 was giving all she had in faith too.  As Jesus and the disciples watched,  rich men were throwing in their money and giving of their own free will. The widow threw in her paltry mites of her own free will too. The Bible does not say she was being forced; it says she gave. Jesus was showing the disciples that the amount of money is inconsequential: it's the heart that counts and the widow was trusting God with all her heart. God knew this extraordinary woman was about to do and He wanted the disciples to see it, that's why He was there at that moment in time. It wasn't necessarily to "commend" the woman; it was meant to show us what is lacking in our own hearts. Because no matter what we give, few of us have forsaken all or given all like this widow did.

Yes, people, rich men, even "clergy", oppress and "devour" widows; we all know that, but that is not the context of this particular passage.

Edited December 30, 2015 by heartstrings

[MountainChristian]

Luke 21:4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

2 Chronicles 31: And Kore the son of Imnah the Levite, the porter toward the east, was over the freewill offerings of God, to distribute the oblations of the LORD, and the most holy things.

This is the only other place where offerings of God is used in the whole King James Bible. Note they were of freewill. 

The KJV translates Strongs G1435 (offerings in Luke 21:4) in the following manner: gift (18x), offering (1x)

This too would lead one to believe it was a gift.

To help us understand this is two separate thoughts the translators start a new paragraph in Mark at verse 41. And they started a new Chapter in Luke. 

Matthew 6:24 ¶ No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Matthew 6:25 ¶ Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

The widow lived that statement in front of our Master. I think that is why Jesus raised her up by pointing out she was really the biggest giver.

 

 

[2ndTimothy]

I have been holding off adding anything to this thread but will add to this last thought as my dad was a pastor for all his life. I have seen him many times be a "as wise as serpents but harmless as doves". Several times he would wisely "investigate" the situation of someone wanting help. Both by talking with the askee and sometimes a phone call or two to verify. Some times he would offer a temporary job and the "applicant" would just mysteriously leave. Proverbs 18:13 comes into play( I won't quote it, if you really want to see what it says you will look it up) . Also another scripture I read plays into this .  Proverbs 29:9 reminded me of this thread.

There was a lion walking through the jungle and came upon a smaller cat. He grabbed him and demanded" Who' s the king of the jungle?" The small cat said , " You  are Oh mighty lion!" The lion felt satisfied and went on and came upon a monkey. He cornered him and demanded "Who''s the king of the jungle?!" The monkey replied shakily "You are oh mighty lion!" Very pleased he went on. He came upon an elephant and confronted him and demanded "Who's the king of the jungle!?" The elephant looked at him and grabbed him with his trunk , shook him and dropkicked him about 2 hundred yards. The lion got up an yelled at the elephant "Well you don't have to get mad cause you don't know the answer!"

So my question is where do you fit in this story.

More to the point some one is standing firm in his  own opinion and not bringing ANY glory to our Lord and Saviour.

There are so MANY things we could talk about that would bring glory to God and edify the listener.

My other question is where are the moderators in this issue?

I will not respond any more to this . I will not answer a fool according to his folly and "some men's sins are open before hand and some they follow after" God will answer everything that needs to be answered.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

So many, it appears, take pleasure and great pride in ignoring the fact that there is no commendation at all in the story of the poor widow.  Jesus did NOT say, "this wonderful widow."  Yet, so many want us to believe He did.  Nothing to even indicate a smile of enjoyment on either the widow's face, or on the face of the Lord Jesus Christ.  Yet, so many want to make it so.

clearly, the widow was robbed and many don't care at all.  They'd rather see the corrupt increase in riches and the poor live in their poverty.  

Proverbs 29:7 comes to mind whenever I see evidence of the poor oppressed.

 

 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

9 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

So many, it appears, take pleasure and great pride in ignoring the fact that there is no commendation at all in the story of the poor widow.  Jesus did NOT say, "this wonderful widow."  Yet, so many want us to believe He did.  Nothing to even indicate a smile of enjoyment on either the widow's face, or on the face of the Lord Jesus Christ.  Yet, so many want to make it so.

Our Lord Jesus Christ did not have to say, "this wonderful widow."  He only had to point out that she did "more" proportionally than all the other givers in her giving "unto the offerings [gifts] of God."  Doing "more" is a statement of comparison.  If that comparison of "more" is in something positive and good, such as giving "unto the offerings of God," then it in itself serves as a word of commendation.

Now, the primary contention in this discussion concerns the motivation of the widow for her giving, as follows:

1.  Either the widow was motivated to give out of compulsion by some form of authority from the scribes.
2.  Or the widow was motivated to give out of free-willingness from her heart toward the Lord God.

So then, what evidence in terminology is available for either position?

1.  On the one hand, Brother Robey continually declares that "there is nothing in the text that indicates willingness and/or desire to give by the widow," and continually presses that the widow was being robbed through her giving because she was being compelled to give.  Yet Brother Robey has NOT been able to point out any terminology of compulsion in the context whatsoever at all.

2.  On the other hand, I myself have continually declared that our Lord Jesus Christ was commending the generosity of the widow in her giving, and that He was doing so in direct contrast to the greediness of the scribes, which they demonstrated specifically through "devouring widows' houses" (that is -- that the very class of individuals, "widows," whom the scribes were so greedily oppressing, could demonstrate so much greater a proportional abundance in giving).  In support of my position I HAVE been able to point out the terminology of gift-giving right in the very text of Scripture; for our Lord Jesus Christ Himself assessed and reported that the givers, including the widow, were giving "unto the offerings [gifts] of God."

So then, which position actually does have the terminology of the Scriptural text in its support?  Indeed, until Brother Robey can point out some terminology of compulsion in the actual text of Scripture (in opposition to the terminology of gift-giving that is indeed present there), his position is the one that is proclaimed without the support of that which God's Word reports.
 

9 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

Clearly, the widow was robbed and many don't care at all.    

Clearly, many of us do not see any evidence that this particular widow was being robbed in this particular moment wherein she gave her two mites "unto the offerings of God."

It is not that we do not "care at all" about widows being robbed and having their houses devoured.  It is that we do not see any evidence that the Scriptural account in Mark 12:41-44 & Luke 21:1-4 presents such a case.  Indeed, we are willing to join in firm unity with the rebuke that our Lord Jesus Christ pronounced against the scribes in Mark 12:38-40 & Luke 20:45-47.  Indeed, we would whole-heartedly agree with the truth of Proverbs 29:7, and would even add such passages as Proverbs 19:17 & Proverbs 22:9 (which passages do raise the question as to why our Lord Jesus Christ did not require the disciples to give any alms unto that "poor widow," if the case of the event is as you view it).
 

9 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

They'd rather see the corrupt increase in riches and the poor live in their poverty.  

Actually, that the temple treasury "increased in riches" by "two mites" is not really that important to me.  What is important to me is that "the poor widow" get credit where credit is due unto her for her proportionately generous giving "unto the offerings [gifts] of God."  Furthermore, I am quite grieved when the character of that poor, yet generous widow is slandered, in that she is presented as some type of wicked rebel against her Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

The terminology of the text neither shows the widow giving willingly, nor does it show that there was a commendation by the Lord 

[Musician4God1611]

I would think that if God didn't want us to tithe, He would have clearly said it in a way everyone could see instead of hiding it in every single passage in Scripture. It seems to me (though I am human, and thus could be wrong), that some could use any verse in the Bible to advance their viewpoint on tithing, whichever side they may be on. I weary of people twisting God's Word.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

23 minutes ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

The terminology of the text neither shows the widow giving willingly, nor does it show that there was a commendation by the Lord 

The terminology of the text DOES indicate that the givers, including the widow, gave "unto the offerings [gifts] of God."  Thus the terminology of the text IS that of GIFT-GIVING.  Furthermore, the terminology of the text DOES indicate that from our Lord's perspective the widow gave MORE (proportionally) in this gift-giving "unto the offerings [gifts] of God." 

On the other hand, the terminology of the text does NOT include a single word concerning compulsion for giving, which is the very premise of Brother Robey's position.  Since Brother Robey cannot erase the terminology of gift-giving, and that toward God, in the phrase, "the offerings [gifts] of God," and since he cannot produce any terminology of compulsion for giving (that is -- without actually changing the very words of Scripture), his position lacks the foundation of the actual Scriptural terminology.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

14 minutes ago, musician4god1611 said:

I would think that if God didn't want us to tithe, He would have clearly said it in a way everyone could see instead of hiding it in every single passage in Scripture. It seems to me (though I am human, and thus could be wrong), that some could use any verse in the Bible to advance their viewpoint on tithing, whichever side they may be on. I weary of people twisting God's Word.

God did put it for us to see.

 

1.Leviticus 27:30-34 states that the tithe command was given to the children of Israel.

2.  Psalms 147:19-20 states that the commands given to Israel were given to no other nation.

 

Hence, people living outside of Israel were not commanded to tithe by God.