Church Mempership

[Ukulelemike]

Well, i have been IFB for more than two and a half decades, was put out of the only IFB Church (which also happens to be the only church in our town that teaches from the KJV) in our town for teaching truth after seven years of membership there.  On disability due to my blindness, so travel is out of the question.  Not every island is escapable.  

 

And even if there were an escape from the island, it would only be a matter of time before the inevitable shipwreck.  Churches don't like me anymore because of the truth I speak.   

So what you are effectively saying, is that there is NO church that speaks truth, only YOU do?

[Salyan]

See, here's the thing. There is no church where everyone is going to believe 100% exactly the same as everyone else, or where all the members believe 100% the same as the pastor. What we have to do is figure out what differences matters enough that we will break fellowship over them, and what we are willing to overlook. Having chosen to join a church however, we are responsible to be under the leadership of the pastor. That doesn't mean you have to agree with him 100%, but it does mean you have to respect him and any instructions he gives on the topic.

For an example from my own life: When I first discovered the IFB churches and came to mine, I came from a old-time Pentecostal background (think tongue-speaking but not crazy). I wasn't sure whether I really thought that tongues had ceased, as pastor taught, and I was pretty sure I disagreed with the interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13 that was used to defend that stance. However, I did agree with the wording of the Statement of Faith that said 'we reject the Charismatic Movement and its unscriptural emphasis on speaking in tongues.'  (The Charismatic movement was crazy and extreme, and I already knew there was an incorrect emphasis with the unBiblical idea Pentecostals had that everyone should speak in tongues.) So I explained where I was to Pastor, and asked if it was okay if I joined the church with those beliefs. He said yes - but that I shouldn't go teaching them.   I obeyed him - and thus it took 3 or 4 years for me to even mention to my closest friends there what my beliefs had been at the time (and that was in casual conversation - not teaching). I didn't have to agree with Pastor - but I needed to respect his instructions not to teach something opposite to that he wanted taught in the church.

I know of a church that had a situation recently with a solid, long-standing member having to be asked to leave because he found an area in which he disagreed with his pastor and refused to stop teaching others his view even after having been told by the pastor not to teach that to others in the church anymore. It's not that he disagreed that was the problem - it was that he refused to honor the pastor's authority to lead and teach his flock as God directed him.  Your 'truth' does not trump your responsibility to honor your pastor. If you are willing to attend a church that teaches differently than you believe - then you must be willing to keep your views private if so requested. If you don't - you are the one out of line. And you shouldn't complain if you are asked to leave.

[Steve Schwenke]

Wouldn't last.  As soon as I began speaking truth, they would put me in exile again.

 

Brother, it is not my intention to be mean or anything like that.  Those of us who have been on this board for any length of time know that you have a major hobby horse.  I understand that it is not a hobby horse to you.  However, in the greater context of things, I see no reason for you to not keep a lid on it, and get along with what you have available.  I know, I have been in that position myself, where I had to swallow my pride, and attend a church that I did not agree with on some major issues - meaning they were major issues to ME, and my position was not very well received by the Pastor or leadership.  
 

What did I do?  I attended that church because it was the best church in the area (45 minutes away), and I told the PASTOR where I stood, and also promised him that I was not there to stir up trouble, but to receive instruction.  I did it to be obedient to my Saviour who DIED FOR THE CHURCH.  

"Only by PRIDE cometh contention...."  Sometimes we need a good dose of humility to please God.  

The end of the story is that when I left that church, I left on GOOD TERMS with the Pastor, who THANKED me for not causing him trouble.  AND - I maintained my own convictions on those areas where we disagreed.  I have a tremendous amount of respect for that Pastor and their ministry, although we are not in agreement on many issues.  

IT CAN BE DONE.  

IT SHOULD BE DONE.  

There is no "excuse" clause in the New Testament Scriptures.  If there is no church "good enough" to attend, then invite people over to your house and hold a Bible Study or something.  BUT DO SOMETHING with other believers, or set aside time on Sundays to worship God, and try to get others involved....

Whatever you do, don't sit around and do NOTHING, and then blame it on everyone else!

 

In Christ,

Edited September 23, 2015 by Steve Schwenke
correction

[Standing Firm In Christ]

So what you are effectively saying, is that there is NO church that speaks truth, only YOU do?

I did say, in our area, If I remember correctly.  I also know that you yourself have spoken this truth.  I know there are other assembled Believers who preach truth, just none close enough that travel caand afford.

 

[Ukulelemike]

I did say, in our area, If I remember correctly.  I also know that you yourself have spoken this truth.  I know there are other assembled Believers who preach truth, just none close enough that travel caand afford.

 

Well, technically in the specific post, no, but I guess the overall content points to that, so I withdraw my question.

But I guess one of my points would be, what points are worthy of living and dying for? I understand the issue you generally speak of, and as you note, I agree with you. However, depending on the way it is taught and pushed, ie, do they act like it is a LAW and MUST be fulfilled in a very legalistic manner, I am surely against that, like coming to your house to collect, or calling you out in service if you haven't done 'your duty', but honestly I have not, myself been to one of those, and generally haven't found it worth fighting over, if all else is well. But you need to do as you believe right. I just pray you CAN get into a good fellowship, because I believe one misses so much when out. My dad, who was a chaplain, involved for many years in good ministries, got hurt and got out, and the longer he was out, the more his doctrines began to skew into some weird areas. I believe a good fellowship is extremely important to the spiritual health of a child of God. Seen it too often, godly men getting out, for whatever reasons, and over time going into weird areas doctrinally.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

 Steve, my Bible does say, "Buy the truth and sell it not".  To me, that means not to compromise my convictions.

The only Church in our area that preaches from the KJV just happens to be the only IFB Church in our area,... which has told us we are not welcome there unless we repent of teaching this truth.  As I said before, I will not repent of preaching truth,... as many here on OB should know by now.

I still get fed, despite not being in a brick and mortar building with fifty or more people.  If I could return without compromising my convictions, I would be back amongst them.  But their stand is that I cannot speak this truth; not just in the Church, but also not on the street, nor on my Facebook page, nor on my blog.  

When church leadership denies its members the freedom to speak or walk in truth, telling them to "keep a lid on it," they cease to be a Church.  They have, at that point, moved into a cult mentality.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Well, technically in the specific post, no, but I guess the overall content points to that, so I withdraw my question.

But I guess one of my points would be, what points are worthy of living and dying for? I understand the issue you generally speak of, and as you note, I agree with you. However, depending on the way it is taught and pushed, ie, do they act like it is a LAW and MUST be fulfilled in a very legalistic manner, I am surely against that, like coming to your house to collect, or calling you out in service if you haven't done 'your duty', but honestly I have not, myself been to one of those, and generally haven't found it worth fighting over, if all else is well. But you need to do as you believe right. I just pray you CAN get into a good fellowship, because I believe one misses so much when out. My dad, who was a chaplain, involved for many years in good ministries, got hurt and got out, and the longer he was out, the more his doctrines began to skew into some weird areas. I believe a good fellowship is extremely important to the spiritual health of a child of God. Seen it too often, godly men getting out, for whatever reasons, and over time going into weird areas doctrinally.

Yes, they do teach it as Law.  They teach it must be done or one is a thief and is cursed by God.

Funny thing though, the pastor who was teaching it at the time we were told not to come back said it would keep you out of the hospital, protect your finances, etc..  Yet, his wife developed a brain tumor, had to have surgery, deteriorated for the next six years and eventually died.  Must not have been doing it himself, or it proves he was wrong all along.

Yes, I know many are the afflictions of the righteous, something he never preached in the seven years I was in membership there.  But the point is, he taught that this certain thing would keep the very things from happening that were happening in his own family.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Standing Firm In Christ]

For the record, just so others don't think I am not doing something.  I have invited many in my community to participate in a study of the Word of God.  I witness to neighbors whenever am out and about in our community as well.

Don't get me wrong.  I do yearn the fellowship that I once experienced.  But it is just not plausible at this juncture in time.  Let me ask those who know my stance and disagree with me,...
Would you consider me as a possible member of your congregation, knowing my stance?  Knowing my zeal for truth on the street and on the internet?  or would you insist that I "keep a lid on it" if I wanted to be a member of your congregation?
Quite sure most would not want me to be in their congregation unles I agreed to be silent.  So, that takes me back to my original post in this particular thread...

It would be wrong for anyone to say I am wrong for not being in fellowship with other Believers in a local brick and mortar building if they themselves would not want me as a member of their congregation unless I was willing to compromise truth. Edited September 24, 2015 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Salyan]

Methinks thou dost protest too much...  I have the feeling, SFIC, that you were a trouble-maker in that church who was not willing to be under your pastor's authority. If so, regardless of your reason for doing so, you were in the wrong, and no amount of excuses (or rephrasing the issue to make yourself sound better) will make it right. And no, we are not wrong to remind people what the Bible clearly says (in much clearer terms than the ambiguity concerning giving) about joining together with other believers in a church - not merely a Bible study. 

Man, am I in a frank mood tonight! Maybe it's time to get some sleep. 

-------

Edited to add: Perhaps I'm being a bit unfair. I have formed an opinion based on many references,  but have never asked what actually happened. So, SFIC, I'm asking now. Did your last pastor ask you to stop teaching against the tithe in your last church, and did you honor that request?

Edited September 24, 2015 by Salyan

[Standing Firm In Christ]

You are incorrect, Salyan.  I was never a troublemaker in the Church.  We agreed on every subject but the one.  And my views on that subject were always expressed miles away from the Church.

 

I was asked to minister in the Church many times through the seven years I was a member.  Preached on many topics, yet not once did I minister there on the topic of tithing.

 

edited to add:  No, the pastor never told me to stop teaching the truth about tithing the entire time I was a member.  It was in the email I received that they said I should stop teaching and repent.  The email was sent two days after my excommunication from that assembly.    As I said previously I cannot, and will not repent of teaching what the Bible says concerning the subject.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Standing Firm In Christ

[LindaR]

Here is the link to the email we received AFTER we were voted out of the church fellowship via a secret meeting....it was secret due to the fact that we, as members of that fellowship for almost 7 years, were not informed of the meeting and we had NO "say so" in our defense.  Even criminals on trial fare better than we did.

"The Much Requested E-mail"

Edited September 24, 2015 by LindaR
Correct the link location

[Alimantado]

Sorry to hear this has happened Linda and SFIC. What I find interesting about their letter and your accompanying comments on the blog post is that you reject various allegations about your conduct and complain that you weren't given a hearing at the meeting. Yet you also say that if you had been allowed to attend the meeting, you would have gone not to address the allegations of misconduct but instead to debate the church over their position on tithing:

Had we been informed, we would have attended and presented Scripture that proves our stance.

And when you did reply to their letter, you chose to focus on the issue of tithing itself, rather than whether you and the church could agree to disagree on it:

We replied to the email with our defense, giving every Scripture that had to do with tithing.  Keith Kendall, the man who sent us the excommunication email, rejected those Scriptures, writing back his argument which basically put the New Testament Church in ancient Israel and under the Mosaic Law of tithing.  Funny thing, he had no valid explanation as to when God gave permission for anyone to take a tithe of money to a fellowship of Gentile Believers.

So after all it does sound like you weren't prepared to remain at the church unless they changed their understanding of tithing to match yours.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

First off, there was no "misconduct" on our behalf.  My teaching was never in the Church building, nor on the Church property.  And it was always miles away from the Church, or on the world wide web.  I thought I had made that clear in a previous post?

Second, had we been informed of the meeting, we would have gone and defended out teaching using the Word of God as our support.  Call it debate if you will, we call it defense. 

Agree to disagree?  I find no support for such in the Word of God.  One is either in agreement, or not.  Yes, our focus would have been on the issue of what the Scripture says.  Why wouldn't it be?  Are we to compromise the truth and walk in a lie? 

Actually, the beginning paragraph of the email we received clearly acknowledged that we had written them and told them our intentions to return to the Church.    By the way, we had written the email to them informing them that we would be back PRIOR to their scheduling of their secret meeting.

[Alimantado]

First off, there was no "misconduct" on our behalf.  My teaching was never in the Church building, nor on the Church property.  And it was always miles away from the Church, or on the world wide web.  I thought I had made that clear in a previous post?

I didn't say there had been any misconduct at all, I just referred to the letter's allegations of misconduct since that's what the letter was about--and I was careful to call them that both times I mentioned them. I didn't say you did or didn't do a thing (how would I know?) so you making it clear in a previous post that the allegations are untrue isn't relevant to my comments.

Second, had we been informed of the meeting, we would have gone and defended out teaching using the Word of God as our support.  Call it debate if you will, we call it defense.

Exactly my point. The letter and the meeting weren't about whose stance on tithing was correct--that you and they thought the other was wrong was already a given. The meeting and letter were about whether you had been openly putting down the church's position, the broad question being whether you could be part of the church despite disagreeing with them on tithing. Yet had you been allowed to attend the meeting,  you say you would have used it to reopen the debate between you and them about tithing itself, i.e. defending your position and rejecting theirs. Ok, so what if you had defended your view on tithing and the other people in the room had said "we still disagree"? You've just said that agreeing to disagree is out of the question for you, so what option would you have had left?

Agree to disagree?  I find no support for such in the Word of God.  One is either in agreement, or not.  Yes, our focus would have been on the issue of what the Scripture says.  Why wouldn't it be?  Are we to compromise the truth and walk in a lie? 

Actually, the beginning paragraph of the email we received clearly acknowledged that we had written them and told them our intentions to return to the Church.    By the way, we had written the email to them informing them that we would be back PRIOR to their scheduling of their secret meeting.

Well, the phrase "agree to disagree", in my part of the world at least, means that the parties mutually understand that they can live together with that point of contention; it isn't a 'deal breaker' to their associating in other regards. It doesn't mean one accepts the view of the other--quite the opposite. So the reason your focus "wouldn't be" on who's correct about tithing (in our hypothetical scenario where you are attending the meeting) would be if you wanted to settle the question of whether you could be part of the church despite disagreement in that area. But it sounds like you weren't at all interested in that question. Ok, so you told them you were coming back--that doesn't mean anything by itself.

 

 

[Christian Markle]

Brother SFIC,

Clearly you and apparently your wife have been hurt by the actions of this church. Furthermore, you both appear to believe you are completely innocent of all wrong doing. I have misgivings if this forum is the place to resolve this issue. Not that any one of the posters are unwilling individually (or in private) to talk it through, but that this medium (a public forum) does not seem to be the best place for it (Matthew 18:16ff; Romans 16:17-19; 1 Corinthians 6:1-8; Ephesians 4:29; Titus 3:1-8; 1 Peter 2:1, 11-12; etc.).

The Bible is clear on the matter of Christ's church being a priority to us. You have expressed mixed responses (willingness, but a sense of hopelessness) to re-connecting with a church. In my estimation, we have established enough Biblical data on the priority of church, but if not more could be said. Your situation is not an exception to the truths of Scripture. It may be that you situation makes it exceptionally difficult to practice the truths of Scripture, but it does not negate them. Exceptionally difficult situations require faith in an exceptionally powerful, holy, righteous, and good God. Our earlier statements about the church are rooted in this God's revelation. We who are believers have already seen Him accomplish the most exceptionally difficult thing in rescuing our depraved souls from His righteous wrath through the blood of His dear Son. Surely we can trust in His timing that he will provide both the personal growth and change that he is working in you through this trial and a good church for you to fellowship.

For His glory,

Christian Markle