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Christian Markle

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Christian Markle last won the day on September 24 2015

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About Christian Markle

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  1. Burdened with you ... and praying!
  2. How does changing the idea from a literal body to a "non-literal" assembly, congregation change anything? The logical steps to your conclusion are not evident. Maybe the book you are searching for will help...but it will take a bit of magic to make "one" equal "multiple." But I am certainly interested.
  3. Suggestion when dealing with claims about Christ: Stick (or at least start) with what Christ actually said (think: not everyone sees revelation the way we do). One may demonstrate that Christ validated the OT or commissioned the NT (ie Hebrews 1:1-2), but if Jesus was a socialist then his actual words will reveal this. If Jesus was not a socialist then his words will reveal this. Of course Jesus context (both immediate cultural context as well his spiritual context matters) and can be use and this opens us to using the whole Bible, but your audience needs to see how you got to Exodus or 1 Thessalonians when the topic was the person of Christ. Does that make sense?
  4. So how many bodies do we have in your theory? I count two (Paul's church, possibly Antioch, and the Corinthian Church). And how many Spirits are there according to this verse? Are you really certain this is the best answer to the particular verse. Is not Paul making an emphasis on the idea of "one." Glossing over this emphasis to cling to an opinion / position without a better explanation may not be wise. With the italicized "there is" removed we have the following: "One body, and one Spirit even as ye are called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all..." The "there is" helps in reading, but changes little in meaning. Again how many bodies are there then? 1 for Ephesus, 1 for Corinth, 1 for Phillipi...by my count that is 3 bodies, but that is not really what Paul said, is it? Can we do this with the rest of the list in this passage? How many God's are there -- well there is one for Ephesus, one for Corinth, and one for Phillipi -- three Gods??? then or three Lords???, or three faiths???, or three baptisms???... This is not really safe ground doctrinaly. There must be a better explanation of the first in the list that does not totally dismantle our theology, and more importantly the clear intent of the text for the rest of the list, right? You are closer, I think, with this statement. Maybe, maybe not... but this has to be demonstrated from Scripture not just asserted. You have not adequately helped us understand the two passages I have cited because they seem to be saying something quite different than what you are saying. This may also be a good theory -- one I like, by the way, but without demonstration from the Text it remains an idea we both like. we may even agree on it. But two men of God agreeing on a position does not make it true, right? More work must be done.
  5. Thought: How we treat our most stubborn enemy is a commentary on how well we understand how God has treated us. Sadly, I am still learning to put into practice what I say I believe about the Amazing salvation I have so undeservingly received.
  6. I used to use the Family of God vs Body of Christ distinction too, until I actually began studying the various passages where the Body of Christ was used as a description for the church. Categories sound really good until we actually start studying the text. Here are a few challenging passages for the distinction being used: 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. There are more, but these are challenging enough. This all being said, I am still a local church guy, just don't think the neat distinction between "family of God" and "Body of Christ" holds water scripturaly. We need to do more work on what "body of Christ" means in each context before we can settle with this distinction.
  7. But why the walk down memory lane? Why is Paul reminding us what we were like before? Certainly we can develop a great gospel message on from vss 3-7. But may i suggest that Paul was not telling Titus to preach this to the lost, but to those that were already saints. Again, why the review of the Gospel? To what end is this line of thinking? If one gets this right, one will have a powerful tool in the sanctification process.
  8. My views of tithing appear to be closer to yours than your previous church. My problem would not then be of your view of tithing. I perceive that we might find conflict elsewhere though...seems to be a human thing :-) How we would deal with it would either demonstrate our love for God, His truth on conflict resolution, and the Gospel or not! For His glory, Christian Markle
  9. Brother SFIC, Clearly you and apparently your wife have been hurt by the actions of this church. Furthermore, you both appear to believe you are completely innocent of all wrong doing. I have misgivings if this forum is the place to resolve this issue. Not that any one of the posters are unwilling individually (or in private) to talk it through, but that this medium (a public forum) does not seem to be the best place for it (Matthew 18:16ff; Romans 16:17-19; 1 Corinthians 6:1-8; Ephesians 4:29; Titus 3:1-8; 1 Peter 2:1, 11-12; etc.). The Bible is clear on the matter of Christ's church being a priority to us. You have expressed mixed responses (willingness, but a sense of hopelessness) to re-connecting with a church. In my estimation, we have established enough Biblical data on the priority of church, but if not more could be said. Your situation is not an exception to the truths of Scripture. It may be that you situation makes it exceptionally difficult to practice the truths of Scripture, but it does not negate them. Exceptionally difficult situations require faith in an exceptionally powerful, holy, righteous, and good God. Our earlier statements about the church are rooted in this God's revelation. We who are believers have already seen Him accomplish the most exceptionally difficult thing in rescuing our depraved souls from His righteous wrath through the blood of His dear Son. Surely we can trust in His timing that he will provide both the personal growth and change that he is working in you through this trial and a good church for you to fellowship. For His glory, Christian Markle
  10. My point is that the Scriptures never indicate that the pastor is any kind of "head" of the church. This designation is reserved for Christ alone. Certainly there is authority given to the pastor, but he is not a visible head. It appears that you were trying to say that he is the human (visible) authority (head). I may be assuming too much, but this may be neglecting to value the authority vested in the congregation, which is both visible and exactly what Christ seems to emphasize in Matthew 18. Clearly we have stepped far off the intended study of Titus 3. I am wiling to drop the matter here, or move the discussion to another thread, but we should probably get back to the passage in question, right? For the glory of His church, Christian Markle
  11. Dear brother (Standing firm in Christ), "The truth" to which you refer (I have indeed read your blog) is not the only truth in the text of scripture. Please allow me to encourage you with the following truths: Galatians 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 2 Thessalonians 3:13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing. 1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. Furthermore, "truth" found in Scripture on the subject of concern is not greater than the truth of the power of God, the mercy of God, the grace of God, the judgement of God (cf Matthew 23:23). Nor is it greater than the truth God has revealed about His church. Take heart, my brother, God is not dead. People are sinners, God is not. People let us down; God cannot! Determine to obey Him with the truth you know--all of it. Keep studying the sacred text and do right -- including keeping your sights set on serving your dear Savior again in His church. I close with one more truth for your encouragment: Ephesians 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, For the glory God and His grace, Christian Markle
  12. As I understand the scriptures, if I were to be suddenly stranded on a desert island, I would still need the divine institution of the church. If I were to believe that I am "ok" without it, I would be deceiving myself and devaluing the work of Christ to purchase the church. This means that one of my goals im my stranded condition should be to either get off the island and find a good church, or if new folks arrived on the island, to start a church on the island. ADVICE: Love the Church enough and stay committed to God's program enough to work through the obstacles for His glory. There may not be an immediate solution for this coming Sunday, but giving up on church all together certainly cannot be supported in the NT documents. For His glory to be display through us in His Church, Christian Markle
  13. This is the proper effect of biblical church discipline. To be removed from church membership for sin and not care is to not understand the body / building concept. It should move us to be willing to repent (2 Thess 3:14). This may be the improper effect of unbiblical church discipline: To be removed from church membership (and banned from services) due to power struggles in the church or some petty reason is when the church itself does not understand the body / building concept of the church (cf 3 John 9-11). The church and its leadership needs to repent. Finding another church as close to the truth as possible is the right thing to do... or seeking to see a true church started. Arm chair quarterbacking these things (specific situations) on the internet is fool hardy and often a violation of Proverbs 18:13. The Lord our God's view of the church given to us in the NT leaves us with an unambiguous expectation to be a committed, faithful, loving, and serving member of a true church. For His glory to be displayed in His Church, Christian Markle
  14. Brother Alan, I am thankful for your clarification on Matthew 18. I think you are on safer ground with that. I would like to press your view of the Pastor a bit. The Biblical text only gives headship in the church to one person, Christ (Ephesians 1:22-23; 4:15; 5:23; Colossians 1:18; 2:10, 19). We pastors are not heads; we are overseers (ie managers). We do not preside as lords over believer-priests (1 Peter 5:3 cf 2:5,9); we are not the mediators between God and the church. We are the teachers of doctrine; this is how we lead, feed and protect the flock. The congregation makes the decisions in the area of discipline (Matthew 18:17; 1 Corinthians 5:3-5). Christ died for the church; it is God's flock (1 Peter 5:2)., Christ is the chief shepherd (vs 4); we are simply His under-shepherds. I do not think it is an oversight by Christ to not mention church leadership in Matthew 18. This certainly does not exclude the pastor from the process, but it does not demand his involvement either. The pastor's role is to teach the principles of conflict resolution; he certainly may be a witness in the second step. He may also guide the church through the third and implementing the fourth step, but he certainly is not the "visible head" of the church...Christ is the church's ONLY head. For the glory of Christ in His Church Christian Markle :
  15. Does Matthew 18 actually teach that we are to take our unresolved personal conflicts to our spiritual leaders? It seems that if the first step (private confrontation vs 15) does not win back the brother then it is not time to get a Pastor, but to get other spiritual brothers to go as witnesses (Matthew 18:16). These witness do not need to be fully informed (so as to be "on the side" of one brother or the other, but come to hear the case. These witness appear to fulfill two purposes: 1) to be able to establish every word (vs 16) and 2) that they may speak into the situation so as to be heard (vs 17). This does not need to be a Pastor. I suggest that Paul saw the believers of Rome to be fully able to admonish one another because they had two characteristics: 2) full of goodness and 1) full of all knowledge (Romans 15:14). Jesus does not say go to your pastor, he says take two or three witnesses. If these are not heard, then one may take it to the church (again not to the pastor per se, but to the assembly). The congregation may then rule on the matter. If this ruling is then ignored then there is to be treatment such as a heathen and/or publican (vs 17). You are correct that not all matters are worthy of this progression. I think it is possible to allow love to cover and mercy to prevail at any stage of this process. The determining factors however, should be the potential spiritual damage if one backs off. We are indeed called to forbear one another in love (Ephesians 4:2). For His glory, Christian Markle

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