R. C. Sproul Jr.

[Leonard Sylvia]

Hey, look at me, I am quoting myself now.

Just to be clear, my opposition to calvin worship is that it renders what could be a fruitful servant of God into a lukewarm and useless waste of God's Gift. Which it does and every person reading this knows it does but you quench the Spirit to continue lies about its "theology". One of Impy's better tricks on believers because it feeds the flesh. Satan has nothing to fear from a calvin worshipper.

please, elaborate how, and why. Please, because as of now you have shown nothing that you understand Monergism as a whole. Casting accusations as it makings Christians "lukewarm", how and why? What would cause that? Again if you Google John Calvin quotes in evangelism you can see what he said on the subject. 

The basic Gospel is Christ Crucified with conviction coming by hearing the Word of God, and the power of the Holy Ghost dealing with a person's sin, God's righteousness and God's judgment. A person can get saved without knowing anything about Arminianism, Calvinism or any other ism. I had never heard of any of those things myself when I got saved.  But as you get in the Word and grow in knowledge, the Holy Spirit living inside you can let you know if something you hear isn't quite right.  We had a pastor who taught strange stuff like "Noah's son Ham was a homosexual" and "God cursed all black people to be slaves because of Ham" and "a baby gets his blood from his father and his body from his mother", "angels cohabited with women" and on I could go. But, thankfully, he was sound on the important things and not everything he taught was wrong. He did teach us that Arminianism and Calvinism are wrong. What if he had taught the other way, that God elected some for heaven and others for Hell? Or that one could lose their salvation? I would have rejected it just like I did the other wacky stuff mentioned above. I'm not going to say that every brother "sitting on the pew" who swallows everything he hears from the pulpit as truth, shrugs it off, and goes on about his daily life without a second thought, is not saved. But I do have a serious problem with those who have studied a serious false doctrine such as Calvinism, defend it as truth, and teach it to others. Methinks that person must not have the witness of the Holy Ghost and Jesus in his heart. Because, when I got saved, and was full of the love of God, I just believed that Jesus could save anybody and was willing to save everybody; and I found that is exactly what the King James Bible teaches.

and I would say that Synergism is more heretical. Synergism puts man at the center of his salvation, God invites man and man make up his mind with God waiting for him.

rather than God predestined man from before the foundations of the world(Eph. 1:4). Choosing whom he wills. Not what system puts more glory, puts more forced on God?

According to Eph. 2 8-9 man can't boast if he was chosen. Whereas man can boast if he picked God.

[wretched]

 

Please reread carefully my previous posts and be honest with yourself and God friend before it is too late and your life for Christ is a waste. This distortion of predestination and election has been the falling away of revival for many years now and even calvin's distortion has become far more distorted by his modern day followers.

Some ask on here why no revival, why no larger numbers of souls saved. They site everything but the real problem in those threads. The real problem is believers don't care to win the lost anymore and use this devilish concoction of calvin-ites to excuse themselves from doing it. Even those who don't believe it and stand their ground on Scripture want to believe it because it makes "living for God" so much easier.

It is never too late to lose your life in this world and start following Christ no matter how long you are been saved. Do you want to be dull in Heaven, pushing a broom or shine like the stars for ever and ever. Think about it, reject the devil and his ideas and pick up your cross.

[Leonard Sylvia]

Please reread carefully my previous posts and be honest with yourself and God friend before it is too late and your life for Christ is a waste. This distortion of predestination and election has been the falling away of revival for many years now and even calvin's distortion has become far more distorted by his modern day followers.

Some ask on here why no revival, why no larger numbers of souls saved. They site everything but the real problem in those threads. The real problem is believers don't care to win the lost anymore and use this devilish concoction of calvin-ites to excuse themselves from doing it. Even those who don't believe it and stand their ground on Scripture want to believe it because it makes "living for God" so much easier.

It is never too late to lose your life in this world and start following Christ no matter how long you are been saved. Do you want to be dull in Heaven, pushing a broom or shine like the stars for ever and ever. Think about it, reject the devil and his ideas and pick up your cross.

here you go:  (btw, I'm still waiting for you to supply me that verse that's shows we will watch people burn that we didn't witness to)

If we have any humanity in us, seeing men going to perdition, …ought we not be moved by pity, to rescue the poor souls from hell, and teach them the way of salvation?

nothing could be more inconsistent with the nature of faith than that deadness which would lead a man to disregard his brethren, and to keep the light of knowledge choked up within his own breast.

there is no people and no rank in the world that is excluded from salvation; because God wishes that the gospel should be proclaimed to all without exception….[the Christian’s duty is] to be solicitous and to do our endeavor for the salvation of all whom God includes in his calling….[those people insult God] who, by their opinion, shut out any person from the hope of salvation.

 

 

 

 

[Invicta]

Agreed.

But there are those that don't preach the gospel.  A preacher that used to be our church moderator told me he went to a fraternal for Baptist ministers, and he said

"Brothers we need to get back to gospel preaching.  We have teaching in the morning, teaching in the evening and teaching in the midweek as well, but where is the gospel preaching?"

He said that split the meeting.

I recently had reason to speak to a visiting preacher.  (Visiting preachers are reminded that we are likely to have unbelievers present especially in the morning.)  I told him that he had spoken as if everyone present was saved.  He replied that he always did unless he was preaching an evangelical message,  I told him there were always likely to be unbelievers present and he should allow for that.  If I remember correctly he prayed that we all had the Holy Spirit.  He said you couldn't always qualify it, but I replied that he hadn't qualified it at all and you should always qualify it and that he had nothing for the unbeliever.

[John81]

Some of the great revivals were from the results of "Calvinists" spreading the Gospel, either personally or through the establishment of major missionary groups (beginning in England).

How many thousands came to Christ through men such as Whitefield, Spurgeon, Mueller, Edwards, Ryle, Newton, Lloyd-Jones, Matthew Henry, in their own lifetimes and in the many years since? That's only a handful.

I know they exist online, but I've not yet read works by a "Calvinist" or met a "Calvinist" who didn't believe in, support and practice the spreading of the Gospel.

Wesley, an "Arminian", worked with Whitefield, a "Calvinist", to the saving of thousands of lost souls.

Were all of these men 100% correct on their various beliefs? No, not at all, they were like the rest of us. Even so, they were used of the Lord to bring the lost to Christ just as He can use us to do the same.

Rice, Hyles, Roberson, Rogers, and countless others with some flawed beliefs who were also used of the Lord to saving of many lost souls.

George Mueller was not a "Calvinist" until he spent time in in-depth study of Scripture on the matter, with much prayer, and determined "Calvinism" was what the Bible teaches. Right or wrong on that matter, the fruit of his life bears out that he was saved, Holy Ghost filled and serving the Lord in many ways, including as an evangelist.

At this moment I currently know more Gospel sharing, soul winning "Calvinist" Baptists than I do of any other stripe of Baptists. Most non-Calvinist, non-IFB Baptists don't seem to be doing much in that area except for a few SBCs. Most IFBs in this area are clanish, and those who do have outreach programs they are narrow, limited, and regimented; most often conducted in a manner as if it's a forced duty rather than out of concern for the lost and the joy of seeing the lost come to Christ.

No doubt, we could all do better regardless of our various positions in certain areas.

[Invicta]

Agreed John

But  Wesley and Whitfield did separate over that matter although they were later reconciled.

[John81]

Agreed John

But  Wesley and Whitfield did separate over that matter although they were later reconciled.

Yes, that point was a matter of contention between them but they managed to serve the Lord together rather well. Some "Calvinists" were upset when Whitefield chose to leave the ministry in Wesley's hands at the end rather than to appoint a "Calvinist" successor.

I've known a few "Calvinist" Baptists and non-Calvinist Baptists who have worked together in soul winning and some street preaching. Focusing upon sharing the Gospel with the intent of seeing lost souls born again in Christ, they do well.

[Alimantado]

I do have a serious problem with those who have studied a serious false doctrine such as Calvinism, defend it as truth, and teach it to others. Methinks that person must not have the witness of the Holy Ghost and Jesus in his heart. Because, when I got saved, and was full of the love of God, I just believed that Jesus could save anybody and was willing to save everybody; and I found that is exactly what the King James Bible teaches.

Ok, well in my opinion this is where we go from scriptural basis to 'secret knowledge between the Holy Spirit and me' kind of thinking. You just pointed out that the Bible says God is willing to save everyone--fine (and for the record that's what I believe too), but what you didn't just do is show or point to a scriptural explanation for why someone who doesn't think God is willing to save everyone must themselves be unsaved (as opposed to saved but wrong).

For example, I can provide scripture to show why someone is unsaved if they don't believe Jesus Christ is real or they believe He wasn't crucified--that's what I mean by a scriptural explanation (and I won't quote the scriptures since I assume you agree). Do you have scripture, or an argument from scripture, that shows why someone who doesn't think God wishes to save everyone must themselves be unsaved?

Otherwise it seems to me that you're in danger of saying that you believe 'X' because the Holy Spirit convicted you, therefore if someone else's experience doesn't match yours they must not have the Holy Spirit (i.e. not saved). Such an argument would depart from Sola Scriptura, don't you think?

[heartstrings]

Ok, well in my opinion this is where we go from scriptural basis to 'secret knowledge between the Holy Spirit and me' kind of thinking. You just pointed out that the Bible says God is willing to save everyone--fine (and for the record that's what I believe too), but what you didn't just do is show or point to a scriptural explanation for why someone who doesn't think God is willing to save everyone must themselves be unsaved (as opposed to saved but wrong).

For example, I can provide scripture to show why someone is unsaved if they don't believe Jesus Christ is real or they believe He wasn't crucified--that's what I mean by a scriptural explanation (and I won't quote the scriptures since I assume you agree). Do you have scripture, or an argument from scripture, that shows why someone who doesn't think God wishes to save everyone must themselves be unsaved?

 

Did I say someone who merely "thinks"?

But I do have a serious problem with those who have studied a serious false doctrine such as Calvinism, defend it as truth, and teach it to others.

Here are some verses......

2 Corinthians 11: 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed

To the "monergists", "reformed", "Calvinists, or whatever you want to be called: The real Jesus loved the world, loved His enemies, died for the world, tasted death for every man, and by his own righteousness offered the free gift of salvation to all men. If the Jesus you teach to others, didn't do that, then you have the wrong one.  I would seriously recommend checking up on your Jesus.

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2015 by heartstrings

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Amen, heartstrings!  Too many today follow a Jesus that is not the Son of Almighty God.

[Alimantado]

 

Did I say someone who merely "thinks"?

Here are some verses......

2 Corinthians 11: 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed

To the "monergists", "reformed", "Calvinists, or whatever you want to be called: The real Jesus loved the world, loved His enemies, died for the world, tasted death for every man, and by his own righteousness offered the free gift of salvation to all men. If the Jesus you teach to others, didn't do that, then you have the wrong one.  I would seriously recommend checking up on your Jesus.

 

 

 

Ok, Heartstrings. Good response--thanks.

[wretched]

 

Here is something about Bible study our flesh can't teach us. There are general themes that are prevalent throughout Scripture that taken as a whole can lead a Spirit lead, thinking-for-themself person to draw conclusions from. This is a case such as that.  

If your only purpose on earth after salvation is to spread the Gospel (which is it without any need for anyone's agreement) lest you want me to paste the entire NT in this post and If a prevalent theme in relaying "thus sayeth the Lord" is not optional and it never has been, then it stands to reason that we will be judged for it.

There is a reason the Judgement Seat of Christ is called that. There is a reason why there will be tears in Heaven and there is a reason why these tears will not be wiped away for over 1000 years.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

It will not be "happy time" for everyone (hardly anyone) at the Judgement Seat like the false gospel spreaders and lukewarms want to make themselves believe. Nor wll it be simply a "Crown Handing Out ceremony". You and I will be judged (note: I did not say condemned) and the verdicts from this judgement will stick with us throughout eternity (once again a general theme logically concluded if the lost have no appeals at the Great White Throne). There will most likely be a point in time, contextually after the millenial reign of Christ where we will remember our earthly failures for God no more. Hence the wiping away of these tears. Rev 20: 11-15 & Rev 21:1-5

So, what is it in Ezekiel 3 that I previously posted that you don't understand? "but his blood will I require at thine hand"

Now if David will see his unborn child again, it stands to reason that we will all recognize all the family and close unequally yoked buddies we had on earth also. They will accuse and rebutt but to no avail. No doubt, they will point to us and say Lord Lord, how come thy servant never PERSUADED ME? A reasonable conclusion if the tares will rebutt and say LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in thy Name and in Thy Name do many wonderful works. It is implied that all, both saved and lost will be able to reply at their respective Judgements.

IOW: we only get one shot down here friends, the shot is PERSUADING MEN, make the most of it. Perhaps if you start thinking this way, that lost jesuits writings will not be so important to you anymore or his subsequent minion's writings relieving your flesh. Or all that "wholesome" entertainment everyone wants to waste God's time doing down here (for that matter).

Lets tighten up our belts and buck up boys cause mutely handing out tracks once in a while (when you have no worldly plans) ain't going to cut it at the Judgement and for the rest of eternity.

 

[Leonard Sylvia]

So you originally said that Calvinist didn't evangelize,I have quoted Calvin on his thoughts on evangelism; and you also said;

 

 

"I believe the exact opposite to be truth. I believe we will be forced to watch all those whom we did not warn day and night at the Great White Throne. All those we know in our lives, we will recognize on that day: coworkers, friends and relatives. This is what the tears in Heaven will be all about."

you haven't shown me from Scripture, only your opinion" where God will "force us to watch"

Edited August 7, 2015 by Leonard Sylvia

[wretched]

 

So you originally said that Calvinist didn't evangelize,I have quoted Calvin on his thoughts on evangelism; and you also said;

 

 

"I believe the exact opposite to be truth. I believe we will be forced to watch all those whom we did not warn day and night at the Great White Throne. All those we know in our lives, we will recognize on that day: coworkers, friends and relatives. This is what the tears in Heaven will be all about."

you haven't shown me from Scripture, only your opinion" where God will "force us to watch"

No problem guy, you win. Won't do you any good later but that is between you and God. Enough said by me. I wrote all that more for myself than anyone else.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

The Bible says God shall wipe away all tears.  I believe He will.

 

Now, what would make a person shed tears?  Would really be one of two options.  

1.  Great joy

2.  Great sorrow.

Two important questions...

Is there anything in the timeline and context that might cause great joy?

Is there anything in the timeline and context that might cause great sorrow?

 

Revelation 21:4 say the tears will be wiped away and death, and sorrow shall be no more.  The last verse of the previous chapter has the wicked dead being cast into the fiery lake.  I believe the context shows that, if the righteous are not at the Great White Throne, they will at least be aware of the souls lost for all eternity, and that is why they weep.

 

Edited August 8, 2015 by Standing Firm In Christ