Everlasting Covenants?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Bro Scott, I have studied your PDF & am concerned that there is no consideration of the New Testament/Covenant in Jesus' blood, the blood of the everlasting covenant, nor of the new heaven & new earth, nor of any NT Scriptures relating to the various passages quoted. The only reference to Jesus is:

"Now, let us engage in a study exercise wherein we shall apply this principle of “precise detail” to the land-promise elements within a number of Biblical covenants. I have chosen this subject for this study exercise specifically because it is a matter of controversy with regard to the fulfillment of the Lord God’s covenants. There is little controversy over whether both Israelites and Gentiles will experience the spiritual, salvation benefits of the New Covenant, if they place heart-faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior from sin. On the other hand, there is much controversy over whether the land promises of the Old Testament covenants are still in force under the New Covenant."

Note particularly Acts 3:

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Brother Day,

In response to your expressed concern, I would present three questions:

1.  Do you believe that "the New Testament/Covenant in Jesus' blood" is a different covenant than the new covenant that the Lord God promised to make with the children of Israel in the various Old Testament passages that I presented in my article?

2.  Can you show specifically any New Testament Scriptures that reference "the New Testament/Covenant in Jesus blood" or "the blood of the everlasting covenant" in relation to any land promises (whether to communicate details of land promise, to indicate fulfillment of land promise, or to indicate the cancelation of land promise)?

3.  Can you show specifically any Scripture which indicates that the promised New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem are a part of any specific covenant?

[Covenanter]

Brother Day,

In response to your expressed concern, I would present three questions:

1.  Do you believe that "the New Testament/Covenant in Jesus' blood" is a different covenant than the new covenant that the Lord God promised to make with the children of Israel in the various Old Testament passages that I presented in my article?

2.  Can you show specifically any New Testament Scriptures that reference "the New Testament/Covenant in Jesus blood" or "the blood of the everlasting covenant" in relation to any land promises (whether to communicate details of land promise, to indicate fulfillment of land promise, or to indicate the cancelation of land promise)?

3.  Can you show specifically any Scripture which indicates that the promised New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem are a part of any specific covenant?

1. No. I believe the conditions for the various expressions of the old covenant were fulfilled by Jesus Christ by his death & resurrection. See e.g. Luke 24, Rom. 15:8 Mat. 5:17-18

2. Heb. 11:16 teaches the expectation of the Patriarchs of a heavenly country; Heb. 8:13 teaches the temporary nature of the old covenant.

3. Generally speaking, God's covenants are promises & God's promises are covenants. 1 Kings 8:56  2 Chr. 1:9  Acts 13:32-34  quotes Isaiah 55:3  Peter refers to the believers' hope of a promised land as a NH&NE 2 Peter 3:13  The relationship aspect of the old covenant is expressed by: my people, your God, and is the prefect expression of the new covenant: e.g. Lev. 26:12  Isa. 40:1  Jer. 7:23  Jer. 31:31-33  Compare Lev. 26:9-12  with its perfect fulfilment in Rev. 21:1-3

There are many NT references to the OT Scriptures you cited. Why did you not consider them? Hebrews discusses the whole covenant situation, old & new. What you will not find are NT Scriptures teaching the restoration of Israel to the promised land, nor as a nation. Peter teaches that the wonderful "holy nation" covenant promise in Exodus 19:5-6 is fulfilled in the believing people of God (aka the church) to whom he was writing. 1 Peter 2:4-10  

Don't forget my implied question concerning the children ... of the covenant...

 

[Covenanter]

I do not understand how anyone reading Galatians could possibly teach that the old covenant provisions will again be valid in a future dispensation -

Circumcision? - Gal. 5:1-6

Keeping the Law? - Gal. 3:10-14

Descent from Abraham? - Gal. 3:18-29  Gal. 4:21-31

The promised land? - Gal. 4:21-31  

Paul's allegory of the two covenants destroys the carnal teaching concerning Israel after the flesh. His conclusion regarding those who hold to the old covenant provisions:

Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

In Christ all the requirements of the Law - obedience to the old covenant provisions, the sacrifices, God dwelling with his people in the tabernacle ( Exo. 25:8 ) etc - were fulfilled to perfection. All the promises of Dan. 9:24 were fulfilled in & by our Lord Jesus Christ. You are holding on to examples & shadows, weak & beggarly elements.  

Your teaching of the old covenant provisions as if they were yet future is giving false hope to those who reject their Messiah. Such teaching is leaven - its effects are to destroy the Gospel in the Middle East by magnifying the so-called state of Israel in its present godlessness as if they were the people of God. 

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

 

 

 

 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

I do not understand how anyone reading Galatians could possibly teach that the old covenant provisions will again be valid in a future dispensation -

Circumcision? - Gal. 5:1-6

Keeping the Law? - Gal. 3:10-14

Descent from Abraham? - Gal. 3:18-29  Gal. 4:21-31

The promised land? - Gal. 4:21-31  

Paul's allegory of the two covenants destroys the carnal teaching concerning Israel after the flesh. His conclusion regarding those who hold to the old covenant provisions:

Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

In Christ all the requirements of the Law - obedience to the old covenant provisions, the sacrifices, God dwelling with his people in the tabernacle ( Exo. 25:8 ) etc - were fulfilled to perfection. All the promises of Dan. 9:24 were fulfilled in & by our Lord Jesus Christ. You are holding on to examples & shadows, weak & beggarly elements.  

Your teaching of the old covenant provisions as if they were yet future is giving false hope to those who reject their Messiah. Such teaching is leaven - its effects are to destroy the Gospel in the Middle East by magnifying the so-called state of Israel in its present godlessness as if they were the people of God. 

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Brother Day,

Now I am a bit confused about a point of belief in your position.  In your above two postings, you made reference to the "old covenant" a number of times.  I myself in my position have a fairly precise definition for what that "old covenant" is.  However, by the way in which you made reference to the "old covenant" in your above postings, I am not sure that your definition for the "old covenant" and my definition for the "old covenant" are the same.  Therefore, I am move to ask the question --

What specific covenant of the Old Testament Scriptures do you view as the "old covenant"?  In my article I specifically make reference to three covenants, those being (1) the Lord God's covenant with Abraham (which He reiterated unto Isaac and Jacob-Israel), (2) the Lord God's covenant with the children of Israel at Mount Sinai through Moses (which is reiterated in the book of Deuteronomy), and (3) the new covenant that the Lord God promised to make with the children of Israel.  Which one of these covenants do you view as the "old covenant"?

[Covenanter]

Brother Day,

Now I am a bit confused about a point of belief in your position.  In your above two postings, you made reference to the "old covenant" a number of times.  I myself in my position have a fairly precise definition for what that "old covenant" is.  However, by the way in which you made reference to the "old covenant" in your above postings, I am not sure that your definition for the "old covenant" and my definition for the "old covenant" are the same.  Therefore, I am move to ask the question --

What specific covenant of the Old Testament Scriptures do you view as the "old covenant"?  In my article I specifically make reference to three covenants, those being (1) the Lord God's covenant with Abraham (which He reiterated unto Isaac and Jacob-Israel), (2) the Lord God's covenant with the children of Israel at Mount Sinai through Moses (which is reiterated in the book of Deuteronomy), and (3) the new covenant that the Lord God promised to make with the children of Israel.  Which one of these covenants do you view as the "old covenant"?

Your understanding (2) applies. My answer to your question could end here, but I will explain further.

The basic discussion of "old" & new covenants is introduced in Jer. 31:

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

There are (1) unconditional, everlasting covenants dependent on God's gracious purposes for his people, & there are (2) conditional covenants dependent on obedience. For the purpose of this discussion, it is the conditional covenants (2) that were broken by Israel's disobedience. e.g.

Exodus 19:

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

God detailed the covenant provisions (2) in the following chapters - the Law of commandments & sacrificial ordinances, etc. Israel failed, repented & was restored repeatedly. The NC (3) provided in Christ greater obedience than ever was achieved or was achievable under the OC (2). 

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Only the righteousness of faith in Christ provides acceptable, perfect new covenant (3) righteousness. e.g. Romans 4. We have the indwelling Holy Spirit who gives us heart righteousness. We are justified & righteous through Jesus' blood of the new covenant (3). 

God's unconditional covenant promises to Abraham et al (1) were not conditional on man's obedience, but required his seed (singular, Christ) to redeem God's people, providing all the covenant (3) blessings of Dan. 7:24 & so make all the redeemed people of God heirs of God & joint-heirs with Christ. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Your understanding (2) applies. My answer to your question could end here, but I will explain further.

Brother Day,

Thank you for answering my question concerning your position on the definition for the "old covenant."  With the answer that you have given, it appears that we are in agreement that the "old covenant" is to be defined as the Lord God's covenant with the children of Israel at Mount Sinai through Moses (which was reiterated in the book of Deuteronomy).  Recognizing that we have agreement concerning this definition for the "old covenant," I believe that you possess a misunderstanding concerning my position on the matter of God's covenants and the land promises.  I myself do not teach (because I do not believe) "that the old covenant provisions will again be valid in a future dispensation."  Even so, your accusation against me as follows is not valid --

I do not understand how anyone reading Galatians could possibly teach that the old covenant provisions will again be valid in a future dispensation -

Circumcision? - Gal. 5:1-6

Keeping the Law? - Gal. 3:10-14

Descent from Abraham? - Gal. 3:18-29  Gal. 4:21-31

The promised land? - Gal. 4:21-31  

Paul's allegory of the two covenants destroys the carnal teaching concerning Israel after the flesh. His conclusion regarding those who hold to the old covenant provisions:

Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

In Christ all the requirements of the Law - obedience to the old covenant provisions, the sacrifices, God dwelling with his people in the tabernacle ( Exo. 25:8 ) etc - were fulfilled to perfection. All the promises of Dan. 9:24 were fulfilled in & by our Lord Jesus Christ. You are holding on to examples & shadows, weak & beggarly elements.  

Your teaching of the old covenant provisions as if they were yet future is giving false hope to those who reject their Messiah. Such teaching is leaven - its effects are to destroy the Gospel in the Middle East by magnifying the so-called state of Israel in its present godlessness as if they were the people of God. (color added by Pastor Scott Markle for emphasis)

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

So then, what do I believe and teach about this matter of God's covenants and the land promises?  In my article above (in its various parts) I clearly communicate that the Lord God's covenant with the children of Israel at Mount Sinai was a conditional covenant, as per Deuteronomy 28:1-2 & 13-14.  Furthermore, in my article I also communicate the consequences if (when) the children would brake those conditions, as per Deuteronomy 28:21, 25, 36, 63-64.  However, I also communicate that the Lord God did give provisions and requirements for the restoration of the children of Israel, as per Deuteronomy 30:1-10.  How then can and will the children of Israel come to a perfect fulfillment of the requirements for that restoration?  The answer to this question brings us to my actual belief and teaching concerning the Lord God's new covenant with the children of Israel and concerning the land promises of that new covenant.  

You see, as I have stated above, I do not  teach "that the old covenant provisions will again be valid in a future dispensation."  Rather, I believe and teach that the Lord God's unconditional covenant with Abraham (and as reiterated unto Isaac and Jacob-Israel), including its land promises and provisions, still remains valid unto this day and shall continue to remain valid unto the end of this old earth.  Furthermore, I believe and teach that the Lord God's NEW COVENANT promises and provisions, both in all of that covenant's spiritual blessings and in all of that covenant's land blessings, shall yet be fulfilled in every precise detail unto the children of Israel during the existence of this old earth sometime in the future.  I believe this and teach this as per such passages as Jeremiah 31:31-40, Jeremiah 32:37-42, Ezekiel 36:21-38, Ezekiel 37:19-28, etc.  In fact, by a thorough study of my article, it will be noticed that of the five different main points that I present, the one which encompasses the greatest amount of space and information is that point concerning the Lord God's new covenant with the children of Israel concerning "the land."  Furthermore, by a thorough study of my article, it will be noticed that I specifically communicate the Biblical truth that the promises and provisions of this new covenant specifically replace the promises and provisions of the covenant that the Lord God made with the children of Israel at Mount Sinai (the "old covenant"), which covenant the children of Israel had broken (as per Jeremiah 31:31-32).

Now, since you yourself, Brother Day, place such emphasis in your belief system upon the New Covenant, why do you deny from the children of Israel the land promises and provisions that the Lord God prophetically declared that He would include in that New Covenant with the children of Israel?

Edited July 14, 2015 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Old-Pilgrim]

Brethren,

May I bring out an item the Mountain Christian briefly touched upon that truly lets us know three things about the, "New Covenant, " that I want to shout everytime I  think about it.

MountainChristian wrote, "Jesus, Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, ⁶ Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

This New Covenant is just as reliable as the others. In fact, it is, "better," than the previous ones due to the one and effectual blood sacrifice of the Lord Jesus. Hebrews 7:22, "By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament." The other covenants were as long as, "the ordinances of heaven." They are temporarily set aside due to the spiritual blindness of the nation of Israel: "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Romans 11:25

Briefly, the, "better," Covenant is based on:

1. The Blood of the Lord Jesus was sprinkled on the Mercy Seat in Heaven. Hebrews 9:12, "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." The blood of the Lord Jesus is still there and every redeemed saint of God will see it one day. Because of the shed, and then sprinkled blood on the Mercy Seat in heaven we have an, "everlasting covenant." Just because we cannot see the blood now does not make the new covenant to cease.

2. The Life of Our Great High Priest is eternal: Hebrews 7:24, "But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood" Because of the eternal life of Christ we have an, "everlasting covenant."

3. The New Covenant is a Jewish Covenant. The Gentiles, through grace, are grafted into the Nation of Israel. And, Hebrews 8:8, "For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." See Jeremiah 31:31-34 The New Covenant is not a Gentile Covenant, nor is it a Church Covenant, it is a covenant made by a Jewish Man, the Man Christ Jesus, to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

I would highly suggest our, Covenant Theology and Replacement Theology friends  realize their doctrinal error and believe the scriptures as they are written and examine them more closely on, "who," they are written to, and "why," and, "how long," they are in force. Covenant and Replacement Theology are heretical doctrines and are repungant to a spiritual Christian. Paul said that those brethren who cannot see this mystery of the temporary spiritual blindness of Israel are: (1) ignorant, and, (2) conceited.

Hello Alan

So you don't believe that the New Covenant is only for the Jews in the future? I thought Dispensational theology says that we are not in the new covenant now.

[Old-Pilgrim]

 

When  New Heavens and the New Earth beigns, and God is physically on the earth dwelling with men, and eternity begins, then my dear friends, time is no more. Glory Hallelujah!

 

Don't you believe that Christians will be in Heaven with The Lord?

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

[Alan]

Old-Pilgram,

Please re-read the post again. I never said that the New Covenant is not for the Jews in the future, in fact, due to the New Covenent being, "everlasting," Hebrews 13:20. The New covenant of course extends, and  belongs to, the Jews, and the saved Gentiles, in the future that will extend into eternity: the new heaven and the new earth. 

Maybe I need to clarify my reply.

Hebrews 8:10-13, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquity will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath make the first old. Now that which desayeth and waxeth olf is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8:10-13 is a quotation from Jeremiah 31:31-34

Even a causal glance of Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:10-13 tells us that these prophecies are have not been completely fulfilled: it is only being partially fulfilled in the Church Age. We will see the complete fulfilment of Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:10-13 in the New Heavens and the New Earth; immediately after the Millenium.   

I do hope that I have clarified the issue and helped our mutual understanding.

Alan

Don't you believe that Christians will be in Heaven with The Lord?

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Right now, as we speak, Christians are in heaven, dwelling in their own mansion, that the Lord Jesus has prepared for us. and, yes, I am going to live in a mansion in heaven beside them. 

Yes, and I believe that we will dwell with God on the earth. Our mansions in heaven, in the Holy and New Jerusalem, will come down from God in heaven. "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." Revelation 21:2 and 3

I do hope that this clarifies it better. I do appreciate the discussion and hopefully if there is anything else I need to clarifly please let me know.

Alan

 

[Old-Pilgrim]

 

I do hope that I have clarified the issue and helped our mutual understanding.

Alan

Sorry my question wasn't very clear. The last time I was reading dispensational theology, they were saying that the new Covenant was ONLY for the Jews, and that the Church was an unexpected mystery, a different thing,  but wasn't fully fledged new covenant Christians. they seemed to be trying to divorce the Gentiles from Israel.

>>> The New Covenant is a Jewish Covenant. The Gentiles, through grace, are grafted into the Nation of Israel. And, Hebrews 8:8, "For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." See Jeremiah 31:31-34 The New Covenant is not a Gentile Covenant, nor is it a Church Covenant, it is a covenant made by a Jewish Man, the Man Christ Jesus, to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. <<<

I believe it is a Jewish/Israeli covenant, but it is the only covenant by which sinners are saved, so of course it is the covenant by which the Church exists! Do you agree with this?

[Alan]

I think you are correct. Even though the New Covenant is a Jewish covenant, believing Gentiles are grafted in and we all enjoy the fruits of salvation.

[Old-Pilgrim]

I think you are correct. Even though the New Covenant is a Jewish covenant, believing Gentiles are grafted in and we all enjoy the fruits of salvation.

Glad we can agree on that.

  Based on Ephesians and OT scriptures like Ex 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my first-born: and the nature of the grafting in, I think the first born; with Christ as the head of the body; matured and took the Gentiles a bride. what other type of man's covenant would mean the less privileged partner gaining equal rights as a gift.?

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 

[Old-Pilgrim]

 

Even a causal glance of Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:10-13 tells us that these prophecies are have not been completely fulfilled: it is only being partially fulfilled in the Church Age. We will see the complete fulfilment of Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:10-13 in the New Heavens and the New Earth; immediately after the Millenium.   

I do hope that I have clarified the issue and helped our mutual understanding.

Alan

Right now, as we speak, Christians are in heaven, dwelling in their own mansion, that the Lord Jesus has prepared for us. and, yes, I am going to live in a mansion in heaven beside them. 

Hello Alan

It is also true that we have not yet put off the body of this death.

I think the Covenant is ratified and established in every sense apart from we the church have yet to take our place in and with Christ.

 

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:[and with the grafted in gentile bride]
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Heb 10:12-13 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Eph 4:1-13 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
2Co 10:3-5 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

 

 

[Covenanter]

Brother Day,

Thank you for answering my question concerning your position on the definition for the "old covenant."  With the answer that you have given, it appears that we are in agreement that the "old covenant" is to be defined as the Lord God's covenant with the children of Israel at Mount Sinai through Moses (which was reiterated in the book of Deuteronomy).  Recognizing that we have agreement concerning this definition for the "old covenant," I believe that you possess a misunderstanding concerning my position on the matter of God's covenants and the land promises.  I myself do not teach (because I do not believe) "that the old covenant provisions will again be valid in a future dispensation."  Even so, your accusation against me as follows is not valid --

Thanks for clarifying that you do not believe nor teach that the old covenant provisions that I specifically referred to -  circumcision; keeping the Law; descent from Abraham; & the promised land will be valid in a future dispensation.  

So then, what do I believe and teach about this matter of God's covenants and the land promises?  In my article above (in its various parts) I clearly communicate that the Lord God's covenant with the children of Israel at Mount Sinai was a conditional covenant, as per Deuteronomy 28:1-2 & 13-14.  Furthermore, in my article I also communicate the consequences if (when) the children would brake those conditions, as per Deuteronomy 28:21, 25, 36, 63-64.  However, I also communicate that the Lord God did give provisions and requirements for the restoration of the children of Israel, as per Deuteronomy 30:1-10.  How then can and will the children of Israel come to a perfect fulfillment of the requirements for that restoration?  The answer to this question brings us to my actual belief and teaching concerning the Lord God's new covenant with the children of Israel and concerning the land promises of that new covenant.

 When we refer to the "provisions and requirements for the restoration of the children of Israel, as per Deuteronomy 30:1-10" we see that their obedience is still required: 10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

The truth is that the provisions & requirements are impossible for man. Both conditional & everlasting (unconditional) covenants all require the saving work of the Lord Jesus Christ as man's covenant surety. Heb. 7:22-25 The new covenant is established only by the blood of the Lord Jesus, & only those trusting in him will enjoy the promises of the covenants. 

     You see, as I have stated above, I do not  teach "that the old covenant provisions will again be valid in a future dispensation."  Rather, I believe and teach that the Lord God's unconditional covenant with Abraham (and as reiterated unto Isaac and Jacob-Israel), including its land promises and provisions, still remains valid unto this day and shall continue to remain valid unto the end of this old earth.  Furthermore, I believe and teach that the Lord God's NEW COVENANT promises and provisions, both in all of that covenant's spiritual blessings and in all of that covenant's land blessings, shall yet be fulfilled in every precise detail unto the children of Israel during the existence of this old earth sometime in the future.  I believe this and teach this as per such passages as Jeremiah 31:31-40, Jeremiah 32:37-42, Ezekiel 36:21-38, Ezekiel 37:19-28, etc.  In fact, by a thorough study of my article, it will be noticed that of the five different main points that I present, the one which encompasses the greatest amount of space and information is that point concerning the Lord God's new covenant with the children of Israel concerning "the land."  Furthermore, by a thorough study of my article, it will be noticed that I specifically communicate the Biblical truth that the promises and provisions of this new covenant specifically replace the promises and provisions of the covenant that the Lord God made with the children of Israel at Mount Sinai (the "old covenant"), which covenant the children of Israel had broken (as per Jeremiah 31:31-32).

Now, since you yourself, Brother Day, place such emphasis in your belief system upon the New Covenant, why do you deny from the children of Israel the land promises and provisions that the Lord God prophetically declared that He would include in that New Covenant with the children of Israel?

While the new covenant promises in the OT certainly refer to the promised land,

neither Jesus nor his Apostles reaffirm the land promises when they speak of the

fulfilment of the covenants. 

I do not deny Israel the land promises but follow the NT teaching that sees

the covenant promises perfectly fulfilled in the NH&NE, not in a future pretrib millennium. 

If they want the covenant promises of God, they will find them in Jesus, by repentance & faith. 

 

  

I have several times referred you to this passage of Scripture which quotes Deut. 18:

 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Peter preached that before Israel rejected the Gospel of salvation in the name of Jesus. He went on to preach:

 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Note these days & that the choice is to hear the prophet, Jesus Christ, or to be destroyed. Note also that the Apostolic preaching is according to all the prophets including presumably those who preached the new covenant & land provisions. Peter did not preach about an earthly future for Israel in the promised land. His great expectation was:

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.  

 

 

[Old-Pilgrim]

If one of the everlasting covenants isn't in use today does that mean everlasting has failed?

Hello MC

Abram
Ge 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

 Abraham
 Ge 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

Isaac
Ge 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

Jacob
Ge 32:12 And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.


Here I see a framework  for two everlasting covenants, one is to do with the earth,  ‘sand’, and one is to do with heaven, ‘stars’, the one to do with the earth lasts as long as the earth lasts, I think to be involved with this covenant you would either need to be a physical descendant of  Israel and/or Abraham, or perhaps the Abrahamic part is actually open to anyone who has the faith of/like Abraham, also, no one really knows where most of the physical descendants of Abraham are now, But if they are Abrahams seed and of Abrahams faith, they will be blessed on the earth, and will be a blessing on the earth. ‘For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:’, this would seem to exclude the faithless Israelites.


I think it is possible that after the millennium on the new earth some of these ’sand’ covenants will still be in existence, because who is going to inherit the new earth? I believe Christians once we lay aside the body of this death will be spiritual beings dwelling in spiritual dwellings for ever, not in a physical spiritual body on earth, as far as the Bride coming down from heaven, I think that will be one in the same event as the maturing of the Church at the end of the Church age, remember we are the bride and we are already in heaven now, if we mature and are made ‘perfect’ that in effect and in reality will be our spiritual man being manifest in us on earth, or the bride coming down to earth for her groom, or the sons of God being made manifest?
‘coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.’

If we are looking at a Type of the bride, as the church, then would it not be reasonable to expect that the husband of the bride, in the same type would be also a congregation of people, this could be Israel the body of Christ.

I think the meek who reject Christ might be spared as a remnant and inherit the earth under the old ‘sand‘ everlasting covenant, or the Abraham promise to the Israelite (because the definition of a true Israelite is basically a meek God fearing person)

And so perhaps the meek will inherit the earth under the old covenant, 'And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.' but if any of them or anyone else sees and believes the Gospel then they crucify the old and enter into the new, the old covenant as far as the law of it and the Abrahamic part of it are still in force,(Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law) just not legally to the Christian or actually to the faith walking Christian, as far as being ‘in’ the covenants the two are mutually exclusive. Rom 7

As for all the other covenants they are either sub sections of one or the other of the Two covenants, The Old one for the earth, and the new one For Heaven. The old one deals with non Christians and carnal backsliden and  faithless Christians, the New is concerning the New Creature. But Both are everlasting, The Moses covenant would be a subsection of the Old Covenant and was to do with the earth, and teaching about the new which was yet to come, that was to lead Israel to Christ, I think the power of the Law of this is still at work, but the ritual part is over.

Perhaps there will be an everlasting Gospel to be preached long after the millennium if sin were to increase in the earth again.