Matthew 24

[No Nicolaitans]

No offence taken, your apology is unnecessary, & I should apologise for not explaining clearly. But let me explain further ...

 

In many discussions with dispensationalists, the disp claims he understands Scripture literally, whereas the opponent spiritualises or allegorises - i.e. makes up his own interpretation without Scriptural warrant. "Spiritualising" is therefore a word that ends discussion. To quote the post in question:

That is using "spiritualising" in a pejorative sense:

 

We are in fact encouraged & enabled to understand Scripture spiritually, & warned against reading Scripture in a natural sense: 1 Cor. 2:9-16

 

I hope that clarifies my post. In fact, I doubt if you can find a post of mine where I have spiritualised or allegorised Scripture in a way that is without Scriptural guidance. But I do think the disp claim to literal interpretation is often questionable. e.g. the interpretation that separates week 70 from the 70 weeks by 2,000 years, but insists that 1,000 years must be literal. 

 

Feel free not to reply further, but it would be keep in mind what I have said about the approach to Scripture understanding.

 

I think I've mentioned it before, but I don't consider myself a dispensationalist. 

[Invicta]

It doesn't say - "the seventieth week is the Tribulation", but it does definitely indicate that it is.

 

Daniel 9:24-27
  24   Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
  25   Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks^{(7 weeks)}, and threescore and two weeks^{(62 weeks)}: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
  26   And after threescore and two weeks^{(same 62 weeks as before)} shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
  27   And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week^{(1 week)}: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the OBlation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

So, you have 69 weeks that have been accounted for in history. There is one week left over (verse 27) that hasn't happened yet...the 70th week. Christ referred to this very week as a future event (Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14, Luke 21:20). The "abomination of desolation" that Christ spoke of hasn't happened yet, nor has any of the other things mentioned in Daniel 9:27. Add to that, the beginning of the prophecy (Daniel 9:24) tells several things that will happen to FULFILL the 70 weeks...so, the 70th week, and all that is indicated by it, is still future and fits in with the description of the Tribulation period.

 

Now, I understand the Preterist/Partial-Preterist view of Daniel 9:24 and the remainder of the prophecy. So, I was just giving you the answer to your question.

 

It's there...for all to see...the 70th week will be the Tribulation period. It may not use the words that you asked in your question, but it's there. 

 

I don't mean this to be rude, but I hope it might help you understand where those of us who hold to a literal interpretation of God's word are coming from. Just as you can't see (?) the 70th week being the Tribulation, we can't s terists/Partial-Preterists interpret scripture by. Spiritualizing literal events doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

 

My view is: I serve a real, living, and literal God...who gave us a real, living, and literal word...to be followed literally.

 

But no worries here...you can to believe as you wish. I'll not argue over it...just answering your question. 

 

The prOBlem with that view is.     26   And after threescore and two weeks^{(same 62 weeks as before)} shall Messiah be cut off.

 

What comes after 69 (62+7) ?  Well 70, of course, so Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks and during the 70th week.  Literally.

[No Nicolaitans]

The prOBlem with that view is.     26   And after threescore and two weeks^{(same 62 weeks as before)} shall Messiah be cut off.

 

What comes after 69 (62+7) ?  Well 70, of course, so Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks and during the 70th week.  Literally.

 

I was just answering a question...not debating different views.

[beameup]

Preterists insist that Daniel's 70 "weeks" are contiguous.  This means that the 70 "weeks" would have been completed before 40 AD.

Preterists cannot "reconcile" Paul's epistle to the Thessalonians, where it says:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,

and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,

or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  2 Thes 2:3-4

[Genevanpreacher]

*Nevermind* 

[Covenanter]

Jesus' Olivet prophecy interrelates with 2 Thes. 2 & Daniel 9 - the destruction.

Preterists insist that Daniel's 70 "weeks" are contiguous.  This means that the 70 "weeks" would have been completed before 40 AD.

Preterists cannot "reconcile" Paul's epistle to the Thessalonians, where it says:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,

and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,

or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  2 Thes 2:3-4

 

We recognise a true prophet by the fulfilment of the prophecy. The inspired record of first C history stops short of the destruction. OBvious 2 Thes. 2 has to occur before 2 Thes. 1, & the 2nd coming refs in 1 Thes. All we know in detail about the destruction is from uninspired historians - mainly non-Christian. There is no doubt that the destruction took place within the lifetime of the generation that rejected their Messiah, but there were no believers there to record it. They acted on Jesus' warnings in his Olivet prophecy to flee the city when they saw the signs.

 

2 Thes. 2 was prophesied  & we know Paul's letters were passed round - presumably copied - & his writings would have been widely known - not just to the recipients.  The destruction was not going to happen while the believers were still in the city, so that what withholdeth (the Jerusalem church) and he who now letteth  (James - the Jerusalem church leader) would be taken out of the way (by martyrdom or flight.) There are clues as to how to recognise the man of sin, aka antichrist, but they are not positively identified in Scripture. In his parable of the husbandmen, Jesus spoke of coming to destroy those who rejected him. As he then gives the vineyard to others, that is not his final coming for resurrection & judgment. 2 Thes. 1.  

 

So what about the 70th week - ending a few years after Calvary? Dan. 9:24-27 

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week refers to the Messiah's earthly ministry until Calvary, & then the Apostolic ministry, the week ending with the Jewish leaders finally being declared "uncircumcised" & the Gospel being opened to Gentiles without circumcision. Many thousands of Jews welcomed the Gospel, so proving themselves true Israelites. John 1:47 Luke 19:9 Believing Israelites & the Apostles were persecuted, rejected & scattered. These are the others, to whom the vineyard is given. The covenant is confirmed with them. Jerusalem & the temple & the old covenant rituals are no longer relevant in God's saving purposes. 

 

In his grace God extends the time for repentance to a whole generation after the 70th week ended - 40 years - but that time ran out. Hebrews 3 urges repentance as he saw the time running out. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

 

No need for spiritualising, nor allegorising, nor inventing a new interpretation system, just read the Word, in context, comparing related Scriptures & accept & believe what is written. 

   

[beameup]

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,

and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not

the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness

2 Thes 2:7-12

[Covenanter]

Beameup - I recognise the prOBlem:

the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

The same prOBlem arises in Mat. 24:

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We naturally associate such references to Jesus' coming as his second coming, in glory, for resurrection & judgement. Most commentators see a double fulfilment of the Olivet prophecy - the final coming is clearly prophesied in Mat. 24:35 onwards. 

 

Also, should we automatically assume that all the tribes of the earth are glOBal, when "tribes" generally refer to the tribes of Israel & the extent of "earth" ranges from depth of earth upwards. Context guides us, & the general context of the Olivet prophecies is the destruction, so can be understood as "tribes of the land of Israel" who would certainly mourn at the prophecies fulfilment. 

 

Bearing in mind that the revelation of Jesus second coming - even his death & resurrection - was not then understood by the disciples, but he had very specifically warning of a coming to destroy those who rejected him. Mat. 21:40-46.  There understanding of that is seen in Acts 1:6  

We can also look for OT references they would associate with his words. e.g. Daniel 7:

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel records his vision, & Jesus claims it for himself. Jesus' accusers condemned him for blasphemy when Jesus again claimed those words for himself. Mat. 26:63-66 

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

When would those to whom Jesus was speaking see & recognise the ascended, glorified Jesus. Bear in mind we commonly use "see" for understanding. Jesus "coming with the clouds" in Dan. 7 is his ascension to his heavenly throne - and was declared to the people in Acts 2:33  with thousands repenting & to the Sanhedrin in Acts 7. As Isaiah prophesied in Isa. 6:8-13

9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

They saw Stephen's vision with blinding clarity - & condemned him.

 

There is another allusion to glorious clouds overshadowing the tabernacle & temple:

34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.  Exo. 40:34-38 

The LORD owned his tabernacle when it was completed according to the heavenly pattern. After Calvary it had no further significance. The Lord Jesus would be glorified in the sad fulfilment of his Olivet prophecy. That of course does not preclude the anticipation of his final glorious coming in the Olivet prophecy, & I am not going to quarrel with those who see it there. However I cannot accept that it defers the fulfilment for thousands of years, requiring another temple to be built. 

 

The time indicators demand fulfilment in the judgement of this generation who rejected their Messiah. I cannot see the LORD reserving special judgment for a future generation of Jews in Jerusalem who had nothing to do with the crucifixion of their Messiah. Since Pentecost their free & full forgiveness has been proclaimed. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Invicta]

Preterists insist that Daniel's 70 "weeks" are contiguous.  This means that the 70 "weeks" would have been completed before 40 AD.

Preterists cannot "reconcile" Paul's epistle to the Thessalonians, where it says:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,

and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,

or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  2 Thes 2:3-4

 

Both Peter and Paul tell us that the temple is the body of believers, i.e. The Church.  On the Trail of Blood site a year or two ago there was a post saying that Clement in his Epistle to the Corinthians  believed that the temple would be rebuilt as he said "Christ will come to his temple."    I replied that until fairly recent years, the NT prophecies regarding the temple were considered to be the Church, and I quoted Wesley for one, who said in one of his hymns, "Never more your temples leave."  But Wesley got it wrong.  There is only one temple.

[Covenanter]

Both Peter and Paul tell us that the temple is the body of believers, i.e. The Church.  On the Trail of Blood site a year or two ago there was a post saying that Clement in his Epistle to the Corinthians  believed that the temple would be rebuilt as he said "Christ will come to his temple."    I replied that until fairly recent years, the NT prophecies regarding the temple were considered to be the Church, and I quoted Wesley for one, who said in one of his hymns, "Never more your temples leave."  But Wesley got it wrong.  There is only one temple.

 

I understand - when Jesus, referring to the temple, prophesied:  There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.  He was saying that the church, the body of believers, would be utterly scattered ?!?!?!?

 

And Paul in 2 Thes. 2 prophesied concerning the church, the body of believers, that the man of sin would take over the church as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  

 

And that the Papacy, ex-officio both man of sin & antichrist would actually take over & head up the church, the body of believers.

 

No. The the church, the body of believers, was indeed scattered & persecuted & excluded from the RCC, but that has nothing to do with Jesus' Mat. 24 prophecy, nor Paul's. The man of sin's temple worshippers were deluded: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:  whereas the believers believe the truth:

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 

[Invicta]

I understand - when Jesus, referring to the temple, prophesied:  There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.  He was saying that the church, the body of believers, would be utterly scattered ?!?!?!?

 

And Paul in 2 Thes. 2 prophesied concerning the church, the body of believers, that the man of sin would take over the church as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  

 

And that the Papacy, ex-officio both man of sin & antichrist would actually take over & head up the church, the body of believers.

 

No. The the church, the body of believers, was indeed scattered & persecuted & excluded from the RCC, but that has nothing to do with Jesus' Mat. 24 prophecy, nor Paul's. The man of sin's temple worshippers were deluded: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:  whereas the believers believe the truth:

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 

 

I understand - when Jesus, referring to the temple, prophesied:  There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.  He was saying that the church, the body of believers, would be utterly scattered ?!?!?!?

 

 

1 ¶  And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2  And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 

 

Jesus was speaking about the building they were looking at, however Paul was speaking about the spiritual building, the Church.  Linus, the first Bishop of Rome was known to Paul. (Eusebius says he was the first bishop or elder of Rome, installed by Peter and Paul)   2Ti 4:21  Do thy diligence to come before winter. Eubulus greeteth thee, and Pudens, and Linus, and Claudia, and all the brethren. 

 

Clement was the third Bishop of Rome.  Php 4:3  And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

 

So when did the church of Rome cease to be a Christian Church, before Constantine, at the time of Constantine, or after Constantine.  We can read that Linus and Clement at least were sitting in the Temple of God, the Church.

[Covenanter]

1 ¶  And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2  And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 

 

Jesus was speaking about the building they were looking at, however Paul was speaking about the spiritual building, the Church.  Linus, the first Bishop of Rome was known to Paul. (Eusebius says he was the first bishop or elder of Rome, installed by Peter and Paul)   2Ti 4:21  Do thy diligence to come before winter. Eubulus greeteth thee, and Pudens, and Linus, and Claudia, and all the brethren. 

 

Clement was the third Bishop of Rome.  Php 4:3  And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

 

So when did the church of Rome cease to be a Christian Church, before Constantine, at the time of Constantine, or after Constantine.  We can read that Linus and Clement at least were sitting in the Temple of God, the Church.

We agree that "Jesus was speaking about the building they were looking at," but why should Paul, writing around AD 50, with the Jerusalem temple still standing & still held in such high regard that it was still used by the Jerusalem Christians & Paul himself for worship, be writing about the temple of believers?  

 

We need a good reason for Paul, in 2 Thes. 2, to be writing about the holy temple in the Lord  (believers) rather than the structure then standing, but under sentence of destruction by the Lord, & occupied by those demonstrating their apostasy (falling away). A temple being ruled by the man of sin rather than the Son of man.

 

Paul is simply reminding them of Jesus' Olivet prophecy, which had to be fulfilled within the lifetime of the generation that rejected him. 

[Invicta]

We agree that "Jesus was speaking about the building they were looking at," but why should Paul, writing around AD 50, with the Jerusalem temple still standing & still held in such high regard that it was still used by the Jerusalem Christians & Paul himself for worship, be writing about the temple of believers?  

 

We need a good reason for Paul, in 2 Thes. 2, to be writing about the holy temple in the Lord  (believers) rather than the structure then standing, but under sentence of destruction by the Lord, & occupied by those demonstrating their apostasy (falling away). A temple being ruled by the man of sin rather than the Son of man.

 

Paul is simply reminding them of Jesus' Olivet prophecy, which had to be fulfilled within the lifetime of the generation that rejected him. 

 

Because Paul said "Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit," not once but several times. Your corporate body that is, the Church.

[HappyChristian]

Because Paul said "Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit," not once but several times. Your corporate body that is, the Church.

[Invicta]

Hi HC, which part of the post does your Um refer to?