Understanding Hebrews - 3

[Covenanter]

The thread Understanding Hebrews -2 has been hijacked by personal attacks & unspecified accusastions of error that do not address the teaching of this important letter.

 

I tend to think of "testament" as generally synonymous with "covenant" particularly as the word "testament" does not occur in the OT, & when the OT is quoted "covenant" is quoted as "testament."

 

e.g. Exodus 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said , All that the LORD hath said will we do , and be OBedient . 8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said , Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

 

Hebrews 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book , and all the people, 20 Saying , This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

 

At the last supper Jesus gave the cup saying, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. Paul confirms that it is for Jew & Gentile (Corinthian) believers: This cup is the new testament in my blood:     

 

Are all Gospel age believers under the New Covenant in the blood of Jesus? I am sure we are. 

 

Or is the NC only for Israel & Judah & yet future.

Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith , Behold , the days come , saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

 

The events & discussion in Acts make it very clear that believing Jews & Gentiles become one redeemed people of God in Christ.

[Covenanter]

This is in effect the last study post in the previous thread:

 

 

Understanding Hebrews -2 #53

Heb. 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die , but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

The writer is summing up - all the external features of the OC are patterns of the heavenly things, figures of the true. Christ is the reality, the better sacrifice, of a better, new & everlasting covenant. We have a great High Priest, & no need ever again of a human high priest - Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many. The teaching that sacrifices will again be offered in a future millennium is absolutely contrary to the teaching in Hebrews. As he goes on to say:

10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come , and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect . 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered ? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

 

Ezek. 43:18-27 details animal sacrifices as sin offerings. Whatever the fulfilment of Ezekiel's temple prophecy is, it CANNOT be after Calvary. Please don't try to tell me they are "memorial offerings" as that would be a direct denial of the prophecy:

18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon. 19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord GOD, a young bullock for a sin offering.

It would also be a denial of the uniqueness & perfect sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice on Calvary.

 

Just as all the detailed tabernacle regulations, sacrifices & priestly services were patterns of the heavenly, so Ezekiel's temple must be a pattern, a type of the new covenant worship centred on our Lord Jesus Christ, to be understood according to the teaching in Hebrews. That temple was not built, & never will be. Paul & Peter agree that the true temple is built with living stones, for acceptable spiritual worship is the church - the redeemed people of God.

 

Eph. 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

1 Peter 2:4 To whom coming , as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

 

As Jesus explained to the Samaritan woman:

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh , when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship : for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh , and now is , when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

He concludes chapter 9 with a further reminder:

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die , but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

We all live & die, & after death face judgement - heaven or hell. If, & only if, you are trusting Christ for your salvation, you can with confidence - holy boldness - look for him to come for your full salvation, & that means resurrection glory.

[Genevanpreacher]

*The thread Understanding Hebrews -2 has been hijacked by personal attacks & unspecified accusastions of error that do not address the teaching of this important letter.

 

*I tend to think of "testament" as generally synonymous with "covenant" particularly as the word "testament" does not occur in the OT, & when the OT is quoted "covenant" is quoted as "testament."

 

e.g. Exodus 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said , All that the LORD hath said will we do , and be OBedient . 8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said , Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

 

Hebrews 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book , and all the people, 20 Saying , This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

 

At the last supper Jesus gave the cup saying, *This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. Paul confirms that it is for Jew & Gentile (Corinthian) believers: *This cup is the new testament in my blood:     

 

Are all Gospel age believers under the New Covenant in the blood of Jesus? I am sure we are. 

 

Or is the NC only for Israel & Judah & yet future.

Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith , Behold , the days come , saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

 

The events & discussion in Acts make it very clear that believing *Jews & Gentiles become one redeemed people of God in Christ.

 

* Yes, and it is sad that brethren can't concentrate a little longer.

 

* Funny you should point this out, as the English bibles older than the KJB do vary and use them interchangeably, [contrary to what some believe the words should mean.]

Of course it will be stated that those, 'thrown-away-by-God' English bibles before the 1611, are of no consequence.

 

* And I find it interesting that Darby (as sad a translation as it is), in his translation uses 'covenant' in this verse. Also in Mark and Luke where the Lord says the same thing.

 

* once again Darby translates it 'covenant'. [i thought Darby was a 'sort-of-founder' of dispensationalism??]

 

* Amen!

Edited October 13, 2014 by Genevanpreacher

[John81]

As I pointed out in one of the other Understanding Hebrews threads:

 

The Bible says we are under a New Covenant.

 

Hebrews 8:6-13 

 

⁶ But now hath he OBtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

⁷ For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

⁸ For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

⁹ Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

¹⁰ For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

¹¹ And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

¹² For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

¹³ In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

[Genevanpreacher]

 

As I pointed out in one of the other Understanding Hebrews threads:

 

The Bible says we are under a New Covenant.

¹⁰ For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

 

Yes, they would be his people, and he their God, when salvation was purchased by him 'physically' [as Jesus Christ], for he was the new covenant. It was his blood!

And because of the mystery kept secret since the world began, gentiles were included in that 'gift' of being God's children, after the 'school master' taught the Israelites

about living by God's word, and being patient for the 'kingdom to come'.

[Invicta]

Covenanter,

 

I wish to apologize for my part in derailing your previous thread.

[Genevanpreacher]

Hey, Invicta, share the blame my way too. I helped to derail the postings also.

Sorry, too, Ian.

[John81]

Covenanter,

 

I wish to apologize for my part in derailing your previous thread.

Many of us got caught up in that detour and I apologize for my part in that.

[Genevanpreacher]

Wow! I just looked over my postings in the 'Heb-2' thread, and boy did I derail!

 

I am sooo sorry Ian, I guess I lost focus. Other things kinda leaked into me head I guess.

 

You are a forgiving kinda guy, aren't ya?

And yet, there I go again...derail, derail, derail....

[Covenanter]

Thanks folk. I have been asked to "give Hebrews a rest" while the mods consider how to deal with the situation. Please pray for them as they want the forum to be a place for fellowship & assistance & prayer, rather than conflict. I won't post more till I get the go-ahead.

 

Meanwhile, as we come to Hebrews 10 & 11, it will be worthwhile to consider the what purpose the old covenant served, with all its' regulations, as Hebrews says:  For the law having a shadow of good things to come , and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

 

Yet they were commanded to be offered by the law:  Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

 

Just how were the OT saints saved?

[Genevanpreacher]

We'll be a waitin'!

[Covenanter]

Has man been waiting from the fall to Calvary for salvation? Was there a real basis for the salvation of OT believers?

 

Heb. 8:5 is striking; the true heavenly tabernacle was shown to Moses in the mount, so he could make a copy.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Covenanter

[prophet1]

I always go to JOB for this answer. JOB 19:25-27 25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. This Edomite knew his Redeemer. He knew of a bodily resurrection. And he knew that Jesus wouldn't return for His own until after the Trib. JOB 14:12-14 12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Edited October 17, 2014 by prophet1

[Covenanter]

Has man been waiting from the fall to Calvary for salvation? Was there a real basis for the salvation of OT believers?

 

Heb. 8:5 is striking; the true heavenly tabernacle was shown to Moses in the mount, so he could make a copy.

 

I always go to JOB for this answer. JOB 19:25-27 25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. This Edomite knew his Redeemer. He knew of a bodily resurrection. And he knew that Jesus wouldn't return for His own until after the Trib. JOB 14:12-14 12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Interesting point, but was JOB an Edomite, & is his discussion with his comforters & questioning of God doctrine?

 

You've quoted in reverse order, & added your belief to his. Relevant verses in order, that show JOB's questioning & his increasing understanding, include:

 

JOB 7:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away : so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. 10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

JOB accepts death as the absolute end - he implies "I can speak freely - even against God. I shall die anyway."

 

14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Now he considers the possibilty of resurrection.

 

JOB 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

And now he sings of his glorious hope of redemption, & a glorious resurrection.

 

Your comment anticipates a doctrine only developed long after Jesus came to perform his redeeming work - "This Edomite knew his Redeemer. He knew of a bodily resurrection. And he knew that Jesus wouldn't return for His own until after the Trib."

 

Are you teaching that when OT & NT believers die they are silent & unconscious in the grave until Jesus returns for the resurrection? Are you "post-trib?"

I tend to the view that as the tablernacle was a copy of the heavenly reality, that all was in place for full redemption from the foundation of the world ( Rev. 13:8 ) so the OT believers did not need to wait for Calvary, but entered heaven at death. Asaph considers this. He comes to understand retribution for the wicked at death, & glory for the believer:

 

Psalm 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand. 24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. 25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. 26 My flesh and my heart faileth : but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.

 

The question in Hebrews is that if -

10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

And if:

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

What purpose did those sacrifices & rituals serve? After all they were offered & required by the God-given Law. They were effective because they were:

the example and shadow of heavenly things

 

The question is answered in Heb. 11, after a further encouragement to his readers to persevere, & a further warning not to turn away from Christ:

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

 

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised) 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

[prophet1]

Interesting point, but was JOB an Edomite, & is his discussion with his comforters & questioning of God doctrine?

You've quoted in reverse order, & added your belief to his. Relevant verses in order, that show JOB's questioning & his increasing understanding, include:

JOB 7:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away : so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. 10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

JOB accepts death as the absolute end - he implies "I can speak freely - even against God. I shall die anyway."

14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Now he considers the possibilty of resurrection.

JOB 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

And now he sings of his glorious hope of redemption, & a glorious resurrection.

Your comment anticipates a doctrine only developed long after Jesus came to perform his redeeming work - "This Edomite knew his Redeemer. He knew of a bodily resurrection. And he knew that Jesus wouldn't return for His own until after the Trib."

Are you teaching that when OT & NT believers die they are silent & unconscious in the grave until Jesus returns for the resurrection? Are you "post-trib?"
I tend to the view that as the tablernacle was a copy of the heavenly reality, that all was in place for full redemption from the foundation of the world ( Rev. 13:8 ) so the OT believers did not need to wait for Calvary, but entered heaven at death. Asaph considers this. He comes to understand retribution for the wicked at death, & glory for the believer:

Psalm 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand. 24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. 25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. 26 My flesh and my heart faileth : but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.

The question in Hebrews is that if -

10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

And if:

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

What purpose did those sacrifices & rituals serve? After all they were offered & required by the God-given Law. They were effective because they were:

the example and shadow of heavenly things

The question is answered in Heb. 11, after a further encouragement to his readers to persevere, & a further warning not to turn away from Christ:

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised) 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Yes, JOB, a prophet of God, was moved to speak of the post-trib bodily resurrection, by the Holy Ghost.

JOB said ," though my body rots and disintegrates, somehow it will rise and look upon Jesus, at the end, and be a usable body".

Remember, there were prophets all along, we just don't have.a written record of their revelation.