Ifb Issues.....

[DaveW]

Since this is in the IFB only area, we should be able to safely and constructively discuss such things here.

I know that in my city there is an extended family who left IFB churches 25 some years ago and they are still drawing people out of good IFB churches today.
They have been through, and damaged several IFB churches, and eventually started their own "church".

Now this family in general are "nice people" and they have "good families" but the hold to some false doctrines.

And in some cases at least, the people who leave to follow them know about the bits where this family is wrong, but what we hear is "they are loving people, and they actually do stuff for the Lord".

Now setting aside the fact that they have wrong doctrine, and the fact that they actively pursue IFB people to draw them away, the IFB churches here are deficient in some way if people are being drawn away like this.
I am NOT saying that their false teaching and wicked intent is unimportant, but I want to focus on our own side of the issue. We all know the other side.....

The basic prOBlem is that when they look at these people, they say to themselves (and to me!) "I know they are not 100% right but they look like Christians are supposed to."

Now I contend that if we were more actively LIVING for the Lord in a more clear and OBvious way, then the attraction of these "good looking" false teachers would be greatly minimized.
Some would still go, but the affect would be far less.

1 Corinthians 13
 1  Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

I think this passage is relevant to this issue.
They see love that looks Christian and overlook false doctrine.
We need to show true Christian love and have strong doctrine.

Most IFB around here - and I suspect further afield too - are pretty good on strong doctrine, but showing the love of Christ needs a bit more work.

If you are not IFB and have somehow got access here I DO NOT WANT YOUR INPUT.

If critical and unhelpful comments are posted I would ask the mods to remove them please.
This is to be constructive please.

[Steve Schwenke]

That's a tough one, Dave. 

I think part of the prOBlem is that people do not know enough about God Himself to really even understand what God's love is all about, and how it operates. 

 

"The fear of the Lord is to HATE evil..."

In the Original Hebrew, the word is "H-A-T-E" if you are wondering. (haha)

 

How about this one

"The righteous Lord loveth righteousness..."

(Ps. 11:7, 33:5, Prov. 15:9)

 

So in my view, these people are more concerned about their own feelings and how they are personally treated than they are with the truth. 

To me, truth is to be preeminent. 

 

I also believe the way we demonstrate our love to our congregations is in personal, private visits.  I can be pretty rough in the pulpit, but my people LIKE it, because they know ME from my personal visits to their house.  They know when I go off on a tirade, I am not attacking THEM, but rather a system (like the roman catholic church), or something else.  They know not to take it personally.  The ones who take stuff personally are carnal Christians who are still hanging on to their wordliness (music, entertainment, etc).  These folks never get "all the way in" no matter how many times I visit them and demonstrate my true love, compassion, and concern for their spiritual well-being.

 

I think Romans 16:17-18 along with II Cor. 11:13-14 play a factor here.  False teachers must make themselves appealing on a personal level to get anywhere, because people (like me!) who put truth above personalities see right through their façade in about 10 seconds.  (Well, maybe that's an exaggeration - maybe 10 minutes???) 

 

What do you think?

[John81]

Yes, there is a prOBlem of us often looking like and coming across as rigid, only concerned with outward appearance, "legalistic" (as most define the term these days), stern, gruff, even mean.

 

We who are followers of Christ should be filled with joy overflowing and OBvious love for one another and love and compassion for the lost that's clear to see. The admonition in Matthew 5:16 (to let our light shine) seems too often to be missing.

 

Indeed, we should all strive for a closer walk with Christ, we should strive to know the Word and abide in the Word, but we need to do so out of a heart full of love and adoration for our Saviour; not as a matter of duty or stern discipline which we try to muster.

 

I agree that if we served the Lord with hearts of biblical love that was evident for all to see, the often more fleshly, even sometimes somewhat fake love of the others would be less appealing.

 

Being around those who exude the love of Christ is something that attracts attention of a good kind. A word spoken in love is far more likely to be received than one spoken in sternness, harshness or anger.

[No Nicolaitans]

I have a lot of thoughts, but to be completely honest...I don't have it in me right now to write them down.

 

I certainly don't claim to be an expert, but having experienced the negative aspects of a pastor-ruled, beat you over the head until you submit preaching...service after service, sacrifice everything for the sake of the ministry (including your family) type of ministry for about 7-8 years (in the past)...I can understand how someone who isn't grounded in God's word would gravitate toward what Bro. Dave has described in the OP.

 

John 13:34-35
34   A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35   By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

 

I think that regardless of the spiritual maturity of a person (in most cases), they can tell if a pastor is speaking the truth in love...and generally speaking...that is one area where many IFB pastors fail. 

 

I'm not promoting the idea that IFB pastors should be pansies in the pulpit...there are times when letting it rip with no holds barred is needed...but there needs to be balance.

[EKSmith]

Brother Dave I have no disagreement with your post if it is important enough for you to take the time to post it should be important that one be kind enough to respond showing the love of Jesus in their heart toward their brother.

 

I have seen the kind of love these people are using to draw away others from the church they prey on the weak christian and the lost soul professing to be a christian within the church.

the weak christian whom has sin there life and allows their heart to harden by not to confessing the sin in their life feels shame and conviction when God directs the pastors preaching toward them feeling insecure of Gods love in there life.    

I know this because many years ago I was that weak christian setting in the pew with a harden heart and sin in my life having my feelings hurt by God through the pastor feeling shame and conviction yet I let self and feelings overcome me because of the hardness in my heart of sin in my life.

 

Brother Dave I would have been easy prey for Satan to lead me into the deception of a false sense of love had I not heeded to the conviction of the Holly Spirit and confessed my sin.

Much of the blame put upon the pastor comes from a harden heart weaken by sin in ones life and if one doesn't take heed to the conviction of the Holly Spirit they become prey for Satan to lead them to believe that the Pastor is at fault lacking of love in his heart.

 

 in my 38 years as born again christian I have only known one pastor whom showed no love for his sheep he was a false uncalled child of Satan but most I have known are firm showing sternness and many times showing much anger.(toward Satan ) full of love .kindness, and compassion. 

Brother Dave I see it this way when our walk with God is right we will walk upright supporting our pastor with Godly love and loving our brother and sisters just as Jesus commanded us to do.

 

There's no love in what these workers of Satan are doing, are they trying to hurt the church YES why not bring shame to the body of Christ while they seek to destroy the light of the world within the christian turning it into dull darkness and leading the lost soul profession to be a christian to hell through the deceptions of Satan.

 

Thank you brother Dave I always enjoy your post keep pressing on.

Thank you brother John and brother NoNic and Pastor Steve for the encouragement in your post

Loving you with the love of Jesus from my heart

God bless 

[DaveW]

I appreciate the input folks.

I agree with you Brother Smith - their kind of "love" is not what it seems.

I keep in contact with some of these people and they now know that "the grass is not greener on the other side", but they are there now. ........

An recent example - a couple who have been influenced by this group recently went on holiday overseas, and people from this group are constantly asking on social media how their holiday is, wishing them well over there etc.
In contrast their own pastor does not do social media.
This group appears to be interested and caring, and in this case it is emphasized in contrast that their own pastor does not appear to care as he has made no comment at all.
I KNOW this is not the case, but it is how it appears.
And this couple have now left that church.

Many years ago when this other group first split away, it happened because the father of the main family involved staged an unsuccessful coup in his church. The pastor prevailed, the guy backed down, but started causing trouble soon after and has never given up.


I guess the thrust of my point is that if we did everything that we should in the way of truly living for the Lord, then it would be harder for people to contrast us with solid doctrine against these that "look loving" but have wrong stuff.

Personally, not long after I took over here we had a family leave to this group. They could see I did things differently to previous, and they said they loved the changes that were happening.
I had a couple of meetings with them to show them the wrong teachings and how important these points were. They agreed with my explanations and could see the clarity of the Bible verses. But they still left - and it was because they couldn't see the love that these people had in the other IFB churches in our area.
The frustrating thing was that they said they could see it in us, but still left.....

I know that they had already left in their hearts before we even arrived.......

Two prOBlems - us not OBvious and loud in our godliness and godly love; and the attacks of those who put on a loving mask, but are actually wolves.

[EKSmith]

I appreciate the input folks.

I agree with you Brother Smith - their kind of "love" is not what it seems.

I keep in contact with some of these people and they now know that "the grass is not greener on the other side", but they are there now. ........

An recent example - a couple who have been influenced by this group recently went on holiday overseas, and people from this group are constantly asking on social media how their holiday is, wishing them well over there etc.
In contrast their own pastor does not do social media.
This group appears to be interested and caring, and in this case it is emphasized in contrast that their own pastor does not appear to care as he has made no comment at all.
I KNOW this is not the case, but it is how it appears.
And this couple have now left that church.

Many years ago when this other group first split away, it happened because the father of the main family involved staged an unsuccessful coup in his church. The pastor prevailed, the guy backed down, but started causing trouble soon after and has never given up.


I guess the thrust of my point is that if we did everything that we should in the way of truly living for the Lord, then it would be harder for people to contrast us with solid doctrine against these that "look loving" but have wrong stuff.

Personally, not long after I took over here we had a family leave to this group. They could see I did things differently to previous, and they said they loved the changes that were happening.
I had a couple of meetings with them to show them the wrong teachings and how important these points were. They agreed with my explanations and could see the clarity of the Bible verses. But they still left - and it was because they couldn't see the love that these people had in the other IFB churches in our area.
The frustrating thing was that they said they could see it in us, but still left.....

I know that they had already left in their hearts before we even arrived.......

Two prOBlems - us not OBvious and loud in our godliness and godly love; and the attacks of those who put on a loving mask, but are actually wolves.

Bother Dave I will keep you and your church in my prayers 

[paid4]

Proverbs 3:12

Proverbs 13:24

Proverbs 12:1

Hebrews 12:6

 

People don't want to hear about this side of love.

[MountainChristian]

Dave, it sounds like you have a pastor's' heart. You warned them of danger, that is love. You are waiting if they come back, like the prodigal son's dad, that too is love. When no one can see but God you have been praying for them, that's love. 

 

 

 

"they are loving people, and they actually do stuff for the Lord".

 

What kind of stuff do they do for the Lord, that you don't do?

[DaveW]

I never did answer this. .... not sure why?

They just are very family oriented, run classes in parenting, help out people in need when they are able...... nothing special, just the stuff we should all be doing.

But that really is the point.

The IFB churches that I know of here have no prOBlems with the strong and straight preaching, but the "love one another" bit seems hard for us in general.
Now the church I am at is becoming more generous and more "outward looking" by the week, but for many years this church had closed doors and only looked after themselves - not even each other.
This is pretty much the way IFB is here.
Strong, straight preaching, which people "Amen", but which those same people seem disinclined to live out.

By this shall all men know........

Well, not many men seem to know it about IFB here.
What they know about IFB is "oh you lot preach hate all the time - no tolerance".

Yes, a misunderstanding of what real love is, but that is their impression nonetheless.

That we are hard, not loving.

Some people will never see it, but I don't think (generalisation) that we do a good enough jOB of displaying Godly love while remaining strong doctrinally.

Any of that make sense?

[John81]

Yes, you make a great deal of sense. In taking the matter of separation and seriously, many (most?) IFB churches went to the extreme of isolation. In attempting to appear separated and standing firm on the Word, sternness set in. For some, it became viewed as a weakness or a flirting with sin to show love, kindness and help to those outside the IFB circle; and sometimes even within that circle.

 

While the original intentions were good, they were taken too far and this has caused much trouble and in many areas given us a reputation as being mean, stern, uncaring, self-righteous, etc.

 

Praise God for those IFB churches, pastors and individuals who have broken from, or who are breaking from, that prOBlem.

 

Walking in Christ is a balance which does require separation and strong standing upon the Word, but also requires active love, compassion, kindness and helping those in need; both inside and outside our church.

[Ukulelemike]

Conversely, as a pastor of a very small church, whoi has had, because of that size, ample opportunity to show Christian love to members in very personal, as well as, sometimes, public ways, many still leave or negelct.

 

Example: (and I am in no way lifting myself, as I believe any of us would do the same in the situation). One day at work I saw a plume of smoke rising from the desert nearby. Upon careful looking, I realized that it was from the house of one of my member families-their house was burning down! . Knowing that the father worked, but mom and the older kids didn't, this gave me cause for concern, so I went to my boss and told him I had to leave because their house was burning. He tried to argue but I told him I had a greater responsibility than my jOB and I left. I drove over to their place, and bless God, found the wife safe and the kids were gone. So I stayed with her to comfort her as best as I could, and remained when the husband arrived, (yes I beat him there, though we work at the same place). The next Sunday we took a special offering for them, and also, we collect change/etc through the year for missionaries, and we voted to give it to them as well. It wasn't a huge amount but it was what we could do.

  before and after this event, my wife and I had Bible studies at their home and later at their new home, per their request, for a few years until the boys grew up and moved out.  But after all this, that family is rarely in service, any more, maybe once per month, if that.

 

So, even when we show love, and concern and give special attention, some are just not willing.

 

I have had another family, into whom we put a lot of time and effort, leave to join the Mennonites, because they decided we weren't conservative enough, then broke away from them with a small group, then left them ebcause they were too 'legalistic,' and now attend a pentecostal church. Oddly, they dont go because they hold to many of their doctrines, but because they are friends with the pastor and felt bad because their church was so small. But he claims to be MY friend, but doesn't care that we are small. 

 

Sadly, sometimes it doesn't matter how much love and attention and concern you put on people-sometimes they just leave. It IS, indeed, the greener grass syndrome, I suppose.

[Jim_Alaska]

Dave and all,

 

Lots of good replies to your post. Our church has recently gone through a hostile take over attempt by a trusted teacher. He took about 80% of our congregation with him. Notice I said congregation, not members. Of course some were actually members.

 

Through all of this havoc and coming out the other side of it I have come to this conclusion:   1Jo 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

Sometimes it is important to remember that the truth devides and purifies.

 

Edited to add:

 

When things of this nature happen our first instinct is to be horrorfied and terribly upset. But how wonderful it is when we can look back on it from a retrospective standpoint and see that God is able and through His Holy Spirit He can and will purify and strengthen His church.

 

Thank you Lord!

[weary warrior]

Brother DaveW, I sure wish we lived closer to each other. I would truly enjoy a coup of coffee with you. I love your heart.

 

I have been in the IFB church my entire life. My dad, as I mentioned elsewhere, is an IFB preacher. I almost left the entire IFB fold about 3 months ago. I had just been beaten up (metaphorically speaking) again by another IFB pastor, and my family caused to suffer terribly terribly over it. It was not over doctrine, nor was it a power struggle. In fact, he had gotten mad at the church ...again... and threatened to resign and turn the church over to me. I refused it and helped encourage and counsel him through the tough spot. I also publicly preached and taught very stridently, from his pulpit, on faithfulness and support for the shepherd God had given us. I made it very plain that anyone that attacked the pastor had to go through me first. And that included the physical. He then, with no warning or explanation, fired me as assistant pastor. The members were very unhappy about it, but I encouraged them to stay, to protect the testimony of the church, and to faithfully place it in God's hands.

 

I moved completely away, losing my families home and land and our friends. It was a small town and my presence would have been a terrible strain on things. I loved that church and those people, and it was the only thing I could do that would help them.

 

That was by no means the first time something like that has happened to my family over the last many years in the ministry, by people with whom we agree with in doctrine, in standards and in practice. So we almost left.

 

But I couldn't leave. I am IFB. But it is almost like we know we are right in doctrine, standards and practice, and this somehow give us a subconscious idea that we are above common standards of human decency and christian compassion. I have said for years that you can be a good man without being a Christian, but you cannot be a good Christian without being a good man.

 

I Corinthians 13 is not preached enough in IFB churches. I have finally come to the conclusion that 100% correct doctrine does not supersede love for others. I'll prOBably get thoroughly roasted for that statement by someone on here.

 

So we carry on. We do not thoroughly trust any other pastors any more, but we love and support them. From a distance. We preach the truth, we love people, we live our standards and we trust God. Don't know what else to do.

[prophet1]

Brother DaveW, I sure wish we lived closer to each other. I would truly enjoy a coup of coffee with you. I love your heart.

I have been in the IFB church my entire life. My dad, as I mentioned elsewhere, is an IFB preacher. I almost left the entire IFB fold about 3 months ago. I had just been beaten up (metaphorically speaking) again by another IFB pastor, and my family caused to suffer terribly terribly over it. It was not over doctrine, nor was it a power struggle. In fact, he had gotten mad at the church ...again... and threatened to resign and turn the church over to me. I refused it and helped encourage and counsel him through the tough spot. I also publicly preached and taught very stridently, from his pulpit, on faithfulness and support for the shepherd God had given us. I made it very plain that anyone that attacked the pastor had to go through me first. And that included the physical. He then, with no warning or explanation, fired me as assistant pastor. The members were very unhappy about it, but I encouraged them to stay, to protect the testimony of the church, and to faithfully place it in God's hands.

I moved completely away, losing my families home and land and our friends. It was a small town and my presence would have been a terrible strain on things. I loved that church and those people, and it was the only thing I could do that would help them.

That was by no means the first time something like that has happened to my family over the last many years in the ministry, by people with whom we agree with in doctrine, in standards and in practice. So we almost left.

But I couldn't leave. I am IFB. But it is almost like we know we are right in doctrine, standards and practice, and this somehow give us a subconscious idea that we are above common standards of human decency and christian compassion. I have said for years that you can be a good man without being a Christian, but you cannot be a good Christian without being a good man.

I Corinthians 13 is not preached enough in IFB churches. I have finally come to the conclusion that 100% correct doctrine does not supersede love for others. I'll prOBably get thoroughly roasted for that statement by someone on here.

So we carry on. We do not thoroughly trust any other pastors any more, but we love and support them. From a distance. We preach the truth, we love people, we live our standards and we trust God. Don't know what else to do.

Now all you have to do is study the Word on church leadership, and find out how wrong most churches practice it. You may even spot some of thr cause and effect of your situation.

Ephesus is the church praised by God for proprr leadership...
Study it.
We have Acts 20, Eph., I &II Tim., and Rev.2 .