John Calvin Had It All Wrong

[Winman]

Your quote from Paul is from his letter to a church. Certainly I agree & preach Jesus death for our sins.

 

Can I tell a deliberate sinner the Jesus died for his sin, that God loves him personally? No! Jesus did NOT die to redeem the guilty sinners in hell. At the judgement, they cannot say, "Jesus died for my sins - how can you punish me as well for the same sins?" I believe in "particular redemption" - that Jesus died to save sinners, aka the elect.

 

Where do we find the Apostles preaching universal atonement? The Gospel invitation is always accompanied by warnings to the impenitent.

 

Acts 13:³⁸ Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

³⁹ And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

⁴⁰ Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;

⁴¹ Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

 

Acts 17:³⁰ And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

³¹ Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

What do I preach to sinners? Several of my sermons are on the forum. e.g. My sermon on Jeremiah 23:6 - The LORD our Righteousness.

 

 

As John points out, Calvinistic preachers whose sermons are published preached to sinners, many of whom responded. Preaching universal love & redemption is another Gospel. Sinners are living under condemnation. What follows John 3:16 ? John 3:17-21

 

You don't preach the gospel to believers, you preach the gospel to unbelievers so they might believe. 

 

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

What would be the purpose of preaching the gospel to someone who already believes? It would accomplish nothing. 

 

Paul told unbelievers that Jesus died for "our" sins so they MIGHT believe. 

 

But you can't do that. 

 

You are correct, it is not the same gospel. 

[DaveW]

Universal redemption is not what is at issue here.
Jesus dying for all men is only universal redemption in Calvin's twisted theology.

I certainly don't believe in universal redemption, but I believe that Jesus died For the whole world.
That doesn't mean the whole world is saved, but that the whole really does have the opportunity to be saved.

The salvation you preach is based on the election of God not on the blood of Christ. It is not a free gift offered to all men, but an imposition upon some men only.

You have answered the question asked in your twisted way, but the translation into simple language is "No".
You can not in your theology preach to all men that they can be saved.

Thanks for making your position clear finally, although I doubt that you meant to reveal as much as you have.

[heartstrings]

Covenanter,

Was it God's will that Felix should come to repentance, believe the Gospel, and be saved?

[heartstrings]

"It would not be possible for me too earnestly to press upon
you the importance of reading the expositions of that prince among men,
JOHN CALVIN!"-- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

 

"The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine
preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else
be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of
no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's
gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder
through England again."-- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

 

"... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else." -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

 

(speaking of "TULIP"), "We look upon them as being five
great lamps which help to irradiate the cross, or rather five bright
emanations springing from the glorious covenant of our Triune God, and
illustrating the great doctrine of Jesus crucified. Against all comers,
especially against all lovers of Arminianism, we defend and maintain pure
gospel truth." -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

 

" I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else.   -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

 

"Once again, if it was Christ's intention to save all men, how deplorably has He been disappointed, for we have His own testimony that there is a lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, and into that pit of woe have been cast some of the very persons who, according to the theory of universal redemption, were bought with His blood. That seems to me a conception a thousand times more repulsive than any of those consequences which are said to be associated with the Calvinistic and Christian doctrine of special and particular redemption. To think that my Saviour died for men who were or are in hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain."  -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

 

But he also said...

"Our conformity to Christ is the sacred OBject of predestination."  -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

 

 

I don't care if Spurgeon was called "the prince of preachers", or how many thousand 'converts' he had; Billy Graham has a multitude of 'converts' and followers too, but he's still a heretic. When I got saved, Spurgeon was nowhere near but Jesus was in the house. I distinctly heard the "voice" of Psalm 29, via the scripture of Psalm 23. and WILLINGLY I opened up my everlasting door and the King of Glory came in. The Bible tells us not to follow, or put our trust in men. I "need not that any man teach" me, even Spurgeon.

[John81]

Good example of Spurgeon's beliefs in this area. Yet he is quoted often in nearly all IFB churches and publications, held up as an example, and often IFB folks will try to claim Spurgeon really wasn't in the Calvinist camp.

[Miss Daisy]

Very true. I always wonder why my pastor quotes Spurgeon or anyone else or other than the Bible for that matter in his sermons.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Very true. I always wonder why my pastor quotes Spurgeon or anyone else or other than the Bible for that matter in his sermons.

And that Mis Daisy is why I said to study the Holy Scriptures and not go to men.

[Covenanter]

You don't preach the gospel to believers, you preach the gospel to unbelievers so they might believe. 

Yes, but in most gatherings unbelievers are present. In any case Paul was not there preaching, (in 1 Cor.) but reminding the Corinthian Christians the essentials of the Gospel, particularly the importance of the resurrection. In the early church there was a lot of confusion about the Gospel, as is clear from Acts (e.g. 15) & from the epistles. Peter didn't take your attitude:

 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. 2 Peter 1:12-15

 

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

What would be the purpose of preaching the gospel to someone who already believes? It would accomplish nothing. 

 As Peter says, to remind them & establish them in the truth, to prevent complacency or back-sliding. On a one-to-one basis, preaching repentance to a fellow believer may not be helpful. However, in a Gospel service, we expect that unbelievers will be present by invitation. Should we not preach repentance because believers are also present?      

 

Paul told unbelievers that Jesus died for "our" sins so they MIGHT believe. 

 

But you can't do that. 

I do preach that Jesus died for OUR sins, so that unbelievers present may respond with confidence in Jesus' atoning sacrifice. If they reject the Gospel at that time, they still know that when they come to Jesus in repentance, their sins will be forgiven.   

 

You are correct, it is not the same gospel. 

I cannot preach universal redemption. I do NOT believe that Jesus died for the sins of Judas, or Hitler, or Mohammed, etc. I DO believe that had they repented, they would have been forgiven through the blood of Jesus who died for them. Jesus' atoning sacrifice was sufficient for all mankind. However, it was specifically for the redeemed. Election excludes NO-ONE from the Gospel call, nor the command to repent, nor the personal guilt in refusing to repent. Nor does it give the Calvinist an excuse for not preaching the Gospel. Preaching is God's means of calling the elect to salvation.   

 

 

We do not know if it was God's will that Felix should come to repentance, believe the Gospel, and be saved. His convenient season frequently came to listen again to Paul. Acts 24:24-27 What we do know it was God's will that Paul should be kept in prison, to witness also to Agrippa & Festus, and to appeal to Caesar & so to travel to Rome to preach to the Emperor & his court. Whether these came to faith in Christ, we do not know. Scripture is silent, but we must learn from Scripture - dare ANY wait for a convenient season, & delay repentance.   

 

Do YOU believe Jesus died for Hitler's sins on the cross? Not just a general "Jesus died for everybody" but specifically for Hitler's sins?

[DaveW]

Again you avoid giving a proper answer and throw smokescreen info in.

Standard practice. .......

[Winman]

Yes, but in most gatherings unbelievers are present. In any case Paul was not there preaching, (in 1 Cor.) but reminding the Corinthian Christians the essentials of the Gospel, particularly the importance of the resurrection. In the early church there was a lot of confusion about the Gospel, as is clear from Acts (e.g. 15) & from the epistles. Peter didn't take your attitude

Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. 2 Peter 1:12-15

 

What a bunch of baloney. The purpose of preaching the gospel is so that unbelievers can hear it and believe and be saved. (Jhn 20:31) Yes, it is good for believers to hear the gospel again on occasion so that they stay sure in sound doctrine, but that is not the primary purpose of the gospel. 

 

I do preach that Jesus died for OUR sins, so that unbelievers present may respond with confidence in Jesus' atoning sacrifice. If they reject the Gospel at that time, they still know that when they come to Jesus in repentance, their sins will be forgiven.   

 

Yes, but you are only speaking to believers. Do you make sure to mention to the unbelievers that you are not sure if Jesus died for their sins or not? You don't want to be misleading do you? You don't want unbelievers to get the impression you are telling them Jesus assuredly died for THEIR sins do you? That wouldn't be completely honest would it? 

 

And if you were completely honest and told the unbelievers that you cannot say whether Jesus died for them personally, do you think they could respond in "confidence" to Jesus's atoning sacrifice?

 

I would be absolutely offended if someone preached to me like this. You Calvinists must believe people are stupid. 

 

I cannot preach universal redemption. I do NOT believe that Jesus died for the sins of Judas, or Hitler, or Mohammed, etc. I DO believe that had they repented, they would have been forgiven through the blood of Jesus who died for them. Jesus' atoning sacrifice was sufficient for all mankind. However, it was specifically for the redeemed. Election excludes NO-ONE from the Gospel call, nor the command to repent, nor the personal guilt in refusing to repent. Nor does it give the Calvinist an excuse for not preaching the Gospel. Preaching is God's means of calling the elect to salvation. 

 

Your view is nonsensical. Just because you believe something does not make it true. You could believe a gun is unloaded and put it to your head and pull the trigger, and if it is loaded it will blow your brains out no matter what you believe. 

 

If Jesus did not die for you personally, it doesn't matter if you believe he did, your faith is vain and you will perish in your sins. Paul showed this concept in 1 Corinthians 15;

 

1 Cor 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

 

Paul shows here that your personal belief does not determine reality. You might believe that Jesus rose from the dead, but if Jesus did not rise from the dead our faith is vain and we will all die in our sins. Why? Because Jesus had to ascend to heaven and sprinkle his blood on the mercy seat in heaven for our sins to be forgiven. 

 

But your faith does not determine reality. If Jesus did not die for you personally, your faith is vain and you will die in your sins. 

 

By the way, how DO you know Jesus died for you personally? Was your name on a list somewhere? Or did you simply convince yourself you are one of the few fortunate elect? 

 

That is the prOBlem with Limited Atonement. If Jesus die not die for all men, you have no way of knowing if he died for YOU. 

 

And how can anybody have faith in a complete uncertainty?????? 

[Winman]

We do not know if it was God's will that Felix should come to repentance, believe the Gospel, and be saved. His convenient season frequently came to listen again to Paul. Acts 24:24-27 What we do know it was God's will that Paul should be kept in prison, to witness also to Agrippa & Festus, and to appeal to Caesar & so to travel to Rome to preach to the Emperor & his court. Whether these came to faith in Christ, we do not know. Scripture is silent, but we must learn from Scripture - dare ANY wait for a convenient season, & delay repentance.   

 

Do YOU believe Jesus died for Hitler's sins on the cross? Not just a general "Jesus died for everybody" but specifically for Hitler's sins?

 

You do not know if it was God's will that YOU should come to repentance if Limited Atonement is true. John Calvin taught that God himself deceives persons to believe they are elect when they in fact are not. According to Calvin, just because you believe you are elect does not make it so. 

 

How do you know you are elect? Was your name on a list somewhere?

 

You see, non-Cals can have confidence that Jesus assuredly died for us PERSONALLY. You cannot know that. 

 

And just because you believe you are elect does not make it so. 

 

And yes, I believe that Jesus died for Hitler's sins, and Judas Iscariot's sins as well. I believe Jesus died for all men's sins. 

[Winman]

Again you avoid giving a proper answer and throw smokescreen info in.

Standard practice. .......

 

Calvinism is founded on deception. Calvinist preachers will declare to unbelievers that Jesus died for "sinners", for the purpose of giving that person the false impression Jesus died for them personally, when the Calvinist preacher has no way to know if Jesus died for that person or not. Calvinists constantly play word games with people like this. 

 

If a Calvinist preacher was honest, he would tell people that Jesus only died for "some" sinners, and that he has no idea who those persons are. His listeners MIGHT be one of the fortunate people Jesus died for, but the higher prOBability is that they are not. 

 

And if a Calvinist preacher was REALLY forthcoming, he would tell you he is not even sure he is one of the fortunate elect. He thinks he is because he believes NOW, but he must endure and persevere to his last breath to know for sure. Even then he cannot know if his works were good enough to qualify him as a true believer. 

 

Truth is, a Calvinist cannot even know if he believes. A Calvinist is taught that an unregenerate person cannot understand or perform anything spiritual, so he has no idea what REAL saving belief is. Spiritual matters are all a big mystery to the Calvinist. Do I really believe? Who knows? How can I know?

 

Calvinism is designed to cause a person to doubt, not believe. 

[John81]

Considering that at least 90% of "Calvinists" I've ever known became so after salvation and study of the Word, and the fact "Calvinism" is growing (at least here in America), it seems a different approach might be beneficial for those who feel led to speak out against "Calvinism".

 

First of all, an approach of compassion with the goal of helping one understand Scripture would be much preferable to the most often used goal of name calling, denouncing, telling others what they think, and coming across as arrogant and only wanting to prove themselves right and others wrong (that approach serves no one). As Paul said, even if we are doing something seemingly right, if we are doing so without love it's meaningless.

 

Secondly, it would be helpful knowing who to engage in such discussions and when; as well as who to disengage from. There are some "Calvinists" who are only interested in arguing, only interested in proving their position right and others wrong. There is no point in arguing with these and there can be no discussion with them. Best to move on from them rather than risking casting pearls before swine. Those "Calvinists" who are open to biblically consider the issue are the ones that should be focused upon.

 

We aren't going to convince others to our position by conducting ourselves as uncaring brutes. We all too often forget about the important points of love, kindness, gentleness and such which the Lord can use to great effect when accompanied by His Word.

 

Third, we should remember it's the Holy Ghost that convicts, opens minds, softens hearts and transforms. We are to simply speak the truth in love and allow the Holy Ghost to do His work. It's not up to us to change others through our own force, loudness, brilliance of communication or any such thing.

 

Fourth, we need to be in much prayer and paying attention to the Spirit's leading so we can rightly do the other points.

 

These are all common biblical points we are called to live by regardless of the subject at hand. This doesn't only apply to aspects regarding "Calvinism" but to all things whether divorce, dress standards, alcohol, homosexuality, hair length, church leadership, etc.

[MatthewDiscipleOfGod]

I normally would just send a PM but I would like to thank DaveW, Winman and others for speaking out against Calvinism. It is finding it's way into our churches and schools. We need to speak out boldly against these false teachings and not allow it to get it's foot in the door.

[heartstrings]

We do not know if it was God's will that Felix should come to repentance, believe the Gospel, and be saved. His convenient season frequently came to listen again to Paul. Acts 24:24-27 What we do know it was God's will that Paul should be kept in prison, to witness also to Agrippa & Festus, and to appeal to Caesar & so to travel to Rome to preach to the Emperor & his court. Whether these came to faith in Christ, we do not know. Scripture is silent, but we must learn from Scripture - dare ANY wait for a convenient season, & delay repentance.   

 

Do YOU believe Jesus died for Hitler's sins on the cross? Not just a general "Jesus died for everybody" but specifically for Hitler's sins?

The Bible says that Felix, "reasoned of temperance, righteousness, and judgment to come". Those three things are the "convincing" of the Holy Ghost who, the Bible also says, is God. So I would say, yes, it was God's will that Felix repent and believe the Gospel. But it was Felix who made the choice to say "go and come again at a more convenient time". To answer your question: Yes sir I believe Jesus died on the cross for every sin committed by and every atrocity ordered by Adolf Hitler. If Hitler is in Hell right this minute, it is because Hitler refused his last opportunity to repent of those sins and rejected Jesus. It was Hitler's choice.

 

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2

 

He is also the propitiation for your sin of teaching ''Calvinism''. But you, yourself make that choice not to repent of it. Repent means to "turn against" or "turn away".