It Shall Be An Everlasting Covenant With Them

[Invicta]

 

Isaiah Chapter 61 ^{(Luke 4:17-19)}

1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

 

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

 

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

 

Jesus stopped reading for a reason. I think hind sight proves Jesus knew He was going to pause the weeks of Daniel so we gentiles can be saved under His glorious grace. 

 

 

Yes that is what I was taught in the Brethren,

 

But what they don't teach you is that Jesus did complete the quote later, referring to the destruction of Jerusalem.Luke 21:22  For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Only a less than 40 gap for "this generation"

 

 

[beameup]

Yes that is what I was taught in the Brethren,

 

But what they don't teach you is that Jesus did complete the quote later, referring to the destruction of Jerusalem.Luke 21:22  For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Only a less than 40 gap for "this generation"

 

 

Perhaps it is good if we continue with this passage from Luke 21 and continue on to verse 27:

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

 

BTW, I really have no idea what the "Brethren" teach, as I'm from a Baptist background.  This is a "Baptist" forum isn't it?

Now, I see that 4th Century Catholic Replacement Theology "remnants" have crept in even to the Independent Baptist forum.

[MountainChristian]

Yes that is what I was taught in the Brethren,

 

But what they don't teach you is that Jesus did complete the quote later, referring to the destruction of Jerusalem.Luke 21:22  For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Only a less than 40 gap for "this generation"

 

 

and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

 

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

-------vs---------

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

 

I see a big difference in those two quotes? I think the days of vengeance means punishment for sin. Jesus fulfilled all what was written in the Law but not the prophets. For example Isaiah 30:26

 

Can you explain how you think all things was fulfilled that is written in the prophets? 

[DaveW]

Why do you make the 69 weeks end at the end of Christ's ministry rather that the beginning? It seems plain to me that when John said

29 ¶ The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

And the voice of God from heaven said.


Matt 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


Lu 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

The disciples recognized him as Messiah.

John 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.



Mark 3:16 Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
17 And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.
18 And straightway they forsook their nets, and followed him.
19 And when he had gone a little further thence, he saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who also were in the ship mending their nets.
20 And straightway he called them: and they left their father Zebedee in the ship with the hired servants, and went after him.

23 ¶ And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy

Luke 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

The Jews also were expectant at that time.

Jesus said: Mark 3:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

What time could be fulfilled, but the end of 69 weeks?

That seems perfectly plain to me. As you OBviously disagree, I would like to know why you reject what seems to me, and to others, plain scripture teaching?

Oh this is easy......

Dan 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

See there at the start?
It says "After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself......"

That is the death of Christ on the cross.
After 69 weeks that is what happens.

Pretty simple if you read what is written...

Not after 69 weeks Messiah appears on the scene......

[Genevanpreacher]

.

 

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8

 

 

That verse is way over used to teach nothing most times.

[John81]

DaveW (and others),

 

Today I read a booklet by Norbert Lieth entitled, "Daniel's Seventy Weeks of Years". This was put together from a series of articles he wrote a few years ago for Midnight Call magazine.

 

If you are in agreement with what is in the booklet, and from what I recall reading here I believe you are, then I believe I now understand your view and why you hold to that.

[DaveW]

DaveW (and others),

Today I read a booklet by Norbert Lieth entitled, "Daniel's Seventy Weeks of Years". This was put together from a series of articles he wrote a few years ago for Midnight Call magazine.

If you are in agreement with what is in the booklet, and from what I recall reading here I believe you are, then I believe I now understand your view and why you hold to that.

I've never heard of the guy, nor read his book (OBviously), so I can't say if I agree with his view or not.

My points in this thread are based only on the reading of the passage from Daniel 9.
Others here have tried to force a view onto my words, but I have made no application as to what it means further.
It says there is a war, but I made no mention of which war or when.
It says the sacrifice ceases, and we know that the Jews continued to make sacrifice until the temple was destroyed.
I point out the order of events.

[John81]

DaveW,

 

The booklet is based upon Daniel 9. He does go into some historical evidences to go along with some of what the Word says, but Daniel 9 is the foundation. He touches upon the war aspects and such too. It's only something like a 25 page booklet so it's rather concise.

 

Midnight Call, who he writes for and is associated with, has a website at http://www.midnightcall.com

Midnight Call mostly deals with eschatology, though does also cover other things, and is pre-trib rapture.

[DaveW]

I have heard of the site (I think), but I don't go to too many sites of any kind.

I rarely - if ever - go to "theology sites", and when I do it almost exclusively through links here.

I do not remember the last time I searched for theological material on line.

Seriously - I check here, I have two 4x4 site I visit occasionally (one local, one national), and the Formula 1 racing site.
Aside from that I search for specific items - car parts and the like.
Oh and I blog a tiny bit, have a Google+ account which I do nothing with, and we have a church website.

But anyway - I can't say I do or don't agree with this booklet because I just don't know.

[beameup]

"The Coming Prince" by Sir ROBert Anderson of Scotland Yard was published in 1894.

It clearly lays-out Daniel 9 using achecological evidence and Biblical text to reveal

the exact date of the presentation of the Messiah to Israel (aka: Palm Sunday).

Of course, this evidence is ignored by "Replacement Theology" as well as unbelieving Jews.

 

And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai

the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it,

according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the

commandment of (1st) Cyrus, and (2nd) Darius, and (3rd) Artaxerxes king of Persia. 

Ezra 6:14  (Artaxerxes deals with the establishment of the city-state of Jerusalem by permitting rebuilding of the walls.)

[Invicta]

 

and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

 

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

-------vs---------

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

 

I see a big difference in those two quotes? I think the days of vengeance means punishment for sin. Jesus fulfilled all what was written in the Law but not the prophets. For example Isaiah 30:26

 

Can you explain how you think all things was fulfilled that is written in the prophets? 

 

 

I take it to complete the quote given in Luke 4.

[Invicta]

 

"The Coming Prince" by Sir ROBert Anderson of Scotland Yard was published in 1894.

It clearly lays-out Daniel 9 using achecological evidence and Biblical text to reveal

the exact date of the presentation of the Messiah to Israel (aka: Palm Sunday).

Of course, this evidence is ignored by "Replacement Theology" as well as unbelieving Jews.

 

And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai

the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it,

according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the

commandment of (1st) Cyrus, and (2nd) Darius, and (3rd) Artaxerxes king of Persia. 

Ezra 6:14  (Artaxerxes deals with the establishment of the city-state of Jerusalem by permitting rebuilding of the walls.)

 

 

Yes I have read that book.  If I remember correctly he believed in several second comings, one in the middle of the tribulation and one at the end and perhaps other comings.

 

Anderson was a Brethren man.  At the time he wrote it, the Brethren were the only ones who had that teaching.  The Baptists absorbed it after Scofield published HIS bible. Mainly American Baptists, because Scofield was American and got HIS bible into Baptist schools over there.  Conservative English baptists do not usually hold that doctrine, but the liberals may and I know me s

 

I believe strongly that Anderson was wrong with his dates.  I once did a chart that listed Anderson's dates and others who also based their dates on Ptolemy, I wonder what happened to that.  A more reliable dating system is given by Martin Ainsley in The Romance of Biblical Chronology. (about 1905) You can find it online.

 

Augustine said that Hezekiah and Romulus lived at the same time.

[Invicta]

 

"The Coming Prince" by Sir ROBert Anderson of Scotland Yard was published in 1894.

It clearly lays-out Daniel 9 using achecological evidence and Biblical text to reveal

the exact date of the presentation of the Messiah to Israel (aka: Palm Sunday).

Of course, this evidence is ignored by "Replacement Theology" as well as unbelieving Jews.

 

And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai

the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it,

according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the

commandment of (1st) Cyrus, and (2nd) Darius, and (3rd) Artaxerxes king of Persia. 

Ezra 6:14  (Artaxerxes deals with the establishment of the city-state of Jerusalem by permitting rebuilding of the walls.)

 

 

 

 

Do you not think it strange that Xerxes is not mentioned here?  

 

Some writers say there are only two kings mentioned here and the text should read.

 

according to the commandment of (1st) Cyrus, and (2nd) Darius, even Artaxerxes king of Persia. 

 

Whatever you say, the scripture says the command was given by God in Isaiah, and Cyrus was to publish the command, and it was the publishing, or going forth that Daniel mentions. Anyway it doesn't really matter, as the command was published.  It only matters to your teaching as it would fail if you are wrong. 

[DaveW]

I don't know Anderson nor Ainsley...... but why do you say Ainsley is more accurate?

I don't care personally, just wondering about your justification.

[Invicta]

Oh this is easy......

Dan 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

See there at the start?
It says "After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself......"

That is the death of Christ on the cross.
After 69 weeks that is what happens.

Pretty simple if you read what is written...

Not after 69 weeks Messiah appears on the scene......

 

 

I agree with that.  And of course what comes after the 69th week?  The seventieth of course.  Messiah was cut off after the 69th week and in the seventieth.  How long after?  The next verse tells us.  

 

I don't know Anderson nor Ainsley...... but why do you say Ainsley is more accurate?

I don't care personally, just wondering about your justification.

 

Ainsley goes into the subject more carefully.  He says there is a complete bible chronology from Adam to Christ.  That chronology goes unbroken from Adam to Cyrus, then from Cyrus to Christ using the decree of Cyrus, but that chronology breaks down if we  take the decree of Artaxerxes as the starting point.  I disagree with Mr Ainsley's conclusions at times, one of which is that he takes the 69 weeks to end at Palm Sunday. Scripture chronology is based on scripture, secular chronology is based on the teachings of astronomer/astrologer Ptolemy who also gave the teaching that the sun circled the earth.