Are Christians That Drink Wine Not Saved?

[Alimantado]

Goodness!  Don't have a conniption fit over this!

Does every word in our KJV Bible mean the same exact thing, every single time it is used?

Absolutely not.

 

But everyone knows some words have more than one meaning and the example you used--'meat'--is precisely one of those words. Every dictionary has 'food more generally' listed as an archaic meaning of the word 'meat'. We even use that meaning a bit today, e.g. mincemeat.

 

But that doesn't mean we can say that all words therefore have more than one meaning, and that 'wine' necessarily does. I'd be really interested in hearing evidence that in 17th century England the word 'wine' was taken to mean 'grape juice' in addition to the meaning it has today.

[OLD fashioned preacher]

But everyone knows some words have more than one meaning and the example you used--'meat'--is precisely one of those words. Every dictionary has 'food more generally' listed as an archaic meaning of the word 'meat'. We even use that meaning a bit today, e.g. mincemeat.

 

But that doesn't mean we can say that all words therefore have more than one meaning, and that 'wine' necessarily does. I'd be really interested in hearing evidence that in 17th century England the word 'wine' was taken to mean 'grape juice' in addition to the meaning it has today.

I tried to find an early edition Oxford Dictionary -- but none seem to be available online.

[Steve Schwenke]

Many Christians enjoy wine or other alcoholic drinks.  Many choose to abstain.  This is one of those areas where there are good reasons not to partake, but it is not sinful.  We are not talking about drinking to excess and abusing alcohol which is clearly sinful.  

 

This is simply an issue that some believe it is not wise.  Others believe it is wrong.  Others believe there is nothing wrong with it.

 

This is not an issue to divide over.  It is not an issue to cause disunity. If one believer, such as myself, enjoys a drink in the privacy of my home or with some friends, it has no impact on anyone.  Just like a choice of someone else to abstain does not have any impact on me.  

This is a trivial issue, to me.  One in which each believer should follow his or her own conscience.  

 

The principals that are clear in the Bible are:

1) Do not get drunk.  Drinking to excess is foolish and will lead to harmful consequences.

2) Do not cause someone to stumble.  So I will not offer a beer to someone I know to be an alcoholic.  That would not be right.  I would not offer wine to someone I know does not drink.  I would abstain while I was round them out of respect for their beliefs.  However, that does not mean I should abstain altogether.  The street goes two way.  I expect others to respect my beliefs and decision on the issue as well. 

Brother, your response here demonstrates your ignorance of the subject from a Biblical viewpoint.  The Bible is clear for those who are willing to let it guide them....

 

Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

 

This verse says we are not even supposed to LOOK at it, let alone DRINK it!

 

In Christ,

[Steve Schwenke]

But everyone knows some words have more than one meaning and the example you used--'meat'--is precisely one of those words. Every dictionary has 'food more generally' listed as an archaic meaning of the word 'meat'. We even use that meaning a bit today, e.g. mincemeat.

 

But that doesn't mean we can say that all words therefore have more than one meaning, and that 'wine' necessarily does. I'd be really interested in hearing evidence that in 17th century England the word 'wine' was taken to mean 'grape juice' in addition to the meaning it has today.

I listed them in that same post....did you miss that part of the post?  I gave several verses all with different meanings of the word "wine." 

 

I don't understand what the difficulty is....get a concordance, or do a word search on your Bible software, and start going through the Bible looking at each occurrence of the word "wine."  Simple!

[Alimantado]

Well, you could simply do a word study of "wine" in the KJV Bible!

 

The problem with that approach is that the translators didn't make up the English language for the purposes of producing the AV. On the contrary, they translated the Bible into English for those who were already speaking English. So if people at the time used the word 'table' to mean a four-legged piece of furniture people ate off of, the translators used that already-existing word to communicate the same thing. I appreciate there are words, like 'love' and 'hate' for example, that aren't so easily defined and for which a word study in the Bible is instructive. But the word 'wine' is a very simple English word, or at least I thought it was!

[Steve Schwenke]

Here is an appropriate verse for this conversation and for this generation:

 

Micah 2:11 If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.

[Steve Schwenke]

The problem with that approach is that the translators didn't make up the English language for the purposes of producing the AV. On the contrary, they translated the Bible into English for those who were already speaking English. So if people at the time used the word 'table' to mean a four-legged piece of furniture people ate off of, the translators used that already-existing word to communicate the same thing. I appreciate there are words, like 'love' and 'hate' for example, that aren't so easily defined and for which a word study in the Bible is instructive. But the word 'wine' is a very simple English word, or at least I thought it was!

Do the word study - you won't be disappointed. 

The Bible defines itself.  Dictionaries are helpful in clarifying a precise definition, but they are not always sufficient.  They might give us insight and help us start down the right path, but they are not always definitive when it comes to the Biblical definition of a word.

The KJV was put together supernaturally by our Lord Himself.  The only way to get to the bottom of a subject that is as controversial as this one is to do an exhaustive word study from the Bible itself.  It will be well worth your time.

 

In Christ,

[no name joe]

Brother, your response here demonstrates your ignorance of the subject from a Biblical viewpoint.  The Bible is clear for those who are willing to let it guide them....

 

Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

 

This verse says we are not even supposed to LOOK at it, let alone DRINK it!

 

In Christ,

 

In that case, I'll just have a beer.  ;-)  CHEERS!

[Alimantado]

I listed them in that same post....did you miss that part of the post?  I gave several verses all with different meanings of the word "wine." 

 

I don't understand what the difficulty is....get a concordance, or do a word search on your Bible software, and start going through the Bible looking at each occurrence of the word "wine."  Simple!

 

One of them doesn't count because it is a figurative use whereas we are talking about literal meanings. In fact, for a word to be used figuratively it must be understood what it means literally. As for 1 Samuel 25:18, yes it does appear that the word wine is being used in a different way there.

 

Don't think I'm saying I don't know how to go away and read. But we're having a discussion here aren't we? And a discussion is where people share what they know. Otherwise we could just shut down this forum and replace with a URL to the AV.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I tried to find an early edition Oxford Dictionary -- but none seem to be available online.

OFP, the link I provided is for a powerpoint that shows definitions from several dictionaries.  Two of which date back to 1759 and 1748 respectively. 

[Steve Schwenke]

In that case, I'll just have a beer.  ;-)  CHEERS!

Beer falls under the category of "strong drink" in the Bible....

 

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Isa 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
Isa 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

[Alimantado]

That said, I do appreciate your entreaties to go away and do a word study in the Bible, Steve, and I will do it.

[no name joe]

Beer falls under the category of "strong drink" in the Bible....

 

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Isa 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
Isa 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

Beer is not a strong drink.  It's alcohol content ranges from 4-8% typically.  Wine is around 12-14%.  Strong drink like bourbon or vodka is way higher than wine.  So beer is really a weak drink.

 

The principal is not to drink to excess and become drunk. In the NT, Paul says deacons and pastors are not to be given to much wine (which means a little is fine).  

 

Why do you feel compelled to force an interpretation of the Bible on others when my interpretation is just as valid?  I honestly do not see why this is an important issue.  Some enjoy in moderation, others abstain.  We can all get along.  :-)

[Standing Firm In Christ]

But everyone knows some words have more than one meaning and the example you used--'meat'--is precisely one of those words. Every dictionary has 'food more generally' listed as an archaic meaning of the word 'meat'. We even use that meaning a bit today, e.g. mincemeat.

 

But that doesn't mean we can say that all words therefore have more than one meaning, and that 'wine' necessarily does. I'd be really interested in hearing evidence that in 17th century England the word 'wine' was taken to mean 'grape juice' in addition to the meaning it has today.

1759 Nathan Bailey's "New Universal English Dictionary of Words and of Arts and Sciences" defines wine as

"Natural wine is such as it comes from the grape, without any mixture or sophistication. Adulterated wine is that wherein some drug is added to give it strength, fineness, flavor, briskness, or some other qualification."

Benjamin Marin's "Lingua Britannica Reformata or A New English Dictionary" published in 1748, defines wine as

"1.  the juice of the grape

2. a liquor extracted from other fruits besides the grape
3.  the vapours of wine, as wine disturbs his reason."

Dictionary.com gives dual definitions

"The juice, fermented or unfermented, of various other fruits, or plants, used as a beverage, sauce, etc.: gooseberry wine; currant wine."

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that prior to the 19th century A.D., the word wine could mean either fermented or unfermented beverage.

I highly doubt it meant strictly fermented beverage in the 17th century A.D.

[Steve Schwenke]

One of them doesn't count because it is a figurative use whereas we are talking about literal meanings. In fact, for a word to be used figuratively it must be understood what it means literally. As for 1 Samuel 25:18, yes it does appear that the word wine is being used in a different way there.

 

Don't think I'm saying I don't know how to go away and read. But we're having a discussion here aren't we? And a discussion is where people share what they know. Otherwise we could just shut down this forum and replace with a URL to the AV.

No, they all count. 

What I am getting at is that Bible has many different uses for the word wine, and one of those uses is in a figurative manner.  It goes to show that there is not just ONE definition of the word "wine" in our KJV Bible.  I included this use because the person I quoted (I think it was robmac???) insists that there is only ONE definition of the word "wine" and that the KJV ALWAYS uses "wine" in reference to an alcoholic beverage. 

I disagree - the Bible uses the word "wine" several different ways - some of which I listed - and one of those ways is figurative. 

 

What I did was collated every reference to the word wine, and it became apparent after some time that there were several different uses of the word.  Once I realized this, I began to categorize them accordingly.  One of my categories was "unclear".  By this I mean that the passages in question did not indicate either way if the "wine" in question was alcoholic or not....in some of those passages, I could give my opinion based on circumstances, but nothing beyond that.....but I don't like teaching my opinion....so I created that category for my own purposes.  However, the vast majority of the references fit very neatly into these categories:

 

Harvest produce

new wine (mentioned specifically in Scripture - a reference to fresh juice)

Sustenance - part of a meal

Alcohol

An Offering

Narrative - the word "wine" is used in part of the narrative of a passage, but not sure what kind of wine

Illustrative - the use of the word "wine" is meant only to illustrate the effects of wine, or something of that nature.  The point of the passage is not to condone or to condemn wine, but rather to illustrate a point.

Prophetic - such as the use in Revelation 14

Medicinal

Winebibber

Winepress

 

Does that help?