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The Glory Land

Are Christians That Drink Wine Not Saved?

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Just Checking those mines that are here.... :)

Like it has been said, if they are Christians, they are saved.

 

Christians do dumb things, like drinking, but it doesn't mean they are not saved.  A Christians should desire to live as close to the cross and they can, but so many seem to see how close they can get to the world without actually being part of the world.  This is very dangerous and shows the immaturity of some Christians. 

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Why Rob are you applying modern definitions to a word that remained essentially unchanged until about sixty years ago?  How can you rightly divide the Scriptures if you don't know what the words mean and cannot see the contexts?

 

Here's some reading material:

 

Page 20 here:

 

http://www.baptistchallenge.org/challenge/10dectbc.pdf

 

Page 5 on this one (you might like the front page article too):

 

http://www.baptistchallenge.org/challenge/11febtbc.pdf

 

Finally, Page 3 here:

 

http://www.baptistchallenge.org/challenge/96martbc.pdf

What word remained unchanged until the 50's?  This Bertha Rachael Palmer has spent enough time on researching wine, but I still think it is bunk and a waste of time.

 

God has said enough on the subject of drinking when He said, "be not drunk with wine" because we are to be "filled with the Spirit."  It doesn't matter whether a sip of wine would be enough to make a person drunk or not.  A mature Christian should not be looking at what is a proper amount or too much because that is the wrong part of that verse to focus on.  A mature Christian should focus on being filled with the Spirit and if there is even the slighest possibility that a drink can cause a Christian not to be filled, they should run away from it as fast as they can.  A mature Christian does not want to flirt with disater at all. 

 

A mature Christian would not be looking for a reason to drink.

An immature Christian might look to justify continuing to enjoy a small amount of wine, but Eph 5:18 will let them know this shows immaturity.

A lost person might want your belief on whether it is ok to drink, but we should not be talking about such things with a lost person that needs the Gospel instead of a history lesson on whether wine is wine or juice.

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I believe that all Wines are fermented, now and in the bible. Christians that enjoy having a glass of Wine, not to get drunk, are still Christians. Now having a cup of Wine, and trying to share the gospel don’t mix. Remember that there are brother in Christ in Chile, and other countries that have Wine with their dinners. So if you set a Wine glass before me, I will join you my friend, cheers. :coffee: coffee works too."

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John 2:9-10

When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

 

I have never heard anyone doing this with grape juice?  Were they drinking "Great Value" brand and then someone gave them "Welches" and the govenor of the feast was so excited to get Welches?

 

When you are drunk, you will drink anything and the taste won't matter much because your senses are dulled.  Spend a little more on "good wine" and let the guests get drunk on that and then when you serve the bad stuff, they won't care nor will they judge you for giving bad stuff because all they can remember is the stuff they drank first. 

So what you're saying is that Jesus was at a party with a bunch of drunk folks and he gave them MORE alcohol, to let them get even drunker?

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I am amazed at the verbal acrobatics people go through to say that wine, as used in the Bible is really grape juice.  It is completely unnecessary to go to such extremes to say that Jesus turned water into grape juice, when the BIble clearly says he turned it into wine.  Furthermore, believers in Jesus' day did drink wine.  Many of them did.  If not, why was it necessary when one took a Nazerite vow, that part of that vow was to abstain from wine?  That was a very special vow, and clearly, drinking wine was accepted as part of life.

 

Now, I am not saying that there are not good reasons to abstain.  Sure there are.  Alcohol can cause destruction when misused and abused.  I understand the argument (though I do not agree) that drinking may cause another person to stumble.  In understand and respect that argument.  However, to say that Jesus did not drink wine is contrary to all evidence in the Bible.  He was accused of being a drunkard.  If he did not drink wine at all, how could this accusation be made?  

 

Now, getting drunk is absolutely wrong.  But having a glass of wine or beer or enjoying a couple drinks with friends?  Nothing wrong at all.  You can do these interpretive acrobatics to arrive at that conclusion, but it is contrary to what is clearly taught in the Scripture.  If you want to talk about whether a Christian should abstain or not, based upon making others stumble, or because it can cause destruction, then we can have a good honest discussion about alcohol.  But saying all use of alcohol is forbidden in the Bible is just a way some try to control others.  That is simply not true.  

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So what you're saying is that Jesus was at a party with a bunch of drunk folks and he gave them MORE alcohol, to let them get even drunker?




Yes He made it, but He did not pour it down anyone throat. Just like everyrhing else we do or eat, He give us the liberty to do so. If we abuse it, we will pay for it. Keep eatting fast foods, you will die of a massive heart attack.

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Yes He made it, but He did not pour it down anyone throat. Just like everyrhing else we do or eat, He give us the liberty to do so. If we abuse it, we will pay for it. Keep eatting fast foods, you will die of a massive heart attack.

Okay, let's rephrase that: Jesus made alcohol , (which is actually a corruption of the natural sugars in the grape, a type of leavening- it doesn't occur by nature- it MUSTbe done by man, with intention of altering what God has made perfectly), and provided it to a bunch of drunk  folks, knowing full well the reason they wanted it was to get drunker?  This goes against everything that Jesus was about.

 

"Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!"

 

Now, some will say, "Jesus didn't give i tto them to look on their nakedness", yet that would surely be the result! Alcohol is a primary contributor to fornication, and do we think  Jesus didn't know that? yet here He is, giving His neighbours drink, putting, if you will, HIS bottle to them, and making them not just drunken, but drunkER!

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Okay, let's rephrase that: Jesus made alcohol , (which is actually a corruption of the natural sugars in the grape, a type of leavening- it doesn't occur by nature- it MUSTbe done by man, with intention of altering what God has made perfectly), and provided it to a bunch of drunk  folks, knowing full well the reason they wanted it was to get drunker?  This goes against everything that Jesus was about.

 

"Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!"

 

Now, some will say, "Jesus didn't give i tto them to look on their nakedness", yet that would surely be the result! Alcohol is a primary contributor to fornication, and do we think  Jesus didn't know that? yet here He is, giving His neighbours drink, putting, if you will, HIS bottle to them, and making them not just drunken, but drunkER!

 

Fermentation occurs naturally.  Yeast, which is a substance in nature, devours sugar, and produces alcohol.  It is a completely natural process.  Making beer or wine is just controlling that process and keeping bacteria and other foreign substances out so the fermentation is pure.  I am a beer maker, so I know how to control the process well.  It is completely natural.  Making beer and wine is merely controlling the natural process.  It begins as soon as a sugary liquid comes into contact with yeast, which is naturally in the air, so it begins immediately.  Wine makers and beer makers merely accelerate the natural process by adding yeast and keeping it in a sterile environment so it is pure.  It is not corrupted at all.  In fact, it produces very delicious beverages when done well.  There are terrible tasting beer and wine out there, but that is usually the inferior mass marketed garbage, and not the fine wines and craft beers that are wonderful.  :-)  

 

Jesus did not serve wine to drunk people.  A wedding feast in that day occurred over a long period of time.  The best wine is served first.  Once people have tasted the best, the inferior was served.  The same is often done today at social events.  You experience the most flavor the first couple bites of food or drinks of wine.  After that, your taste buds have grown accustomed to the flavor, and the flavor is not a vivid.  That is why people serve the best first.

Edited by kindofblue1977

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Who had Wine, to help him self of stmoach problems, in the New Testament?

I know a number of doctors who recommend grape juice for the stomach. Anyone who has a stomach issue who has tried to drink alcohol can tell you that the alcohol in the drink further upsets the stomach. It doesn't help it.

 

~~~~~

 

The fact remains that references to wine in the Bible often mean grape juice.  Non-fermented.  God says it's not wise.  That's enough for me to know that Christ would not have created a wine that was fermented to the point that it could cause intoxication.    It's not wise.  *shrugs* Who am I to say I know better than God? 

 

Consistent drinking of alcohol (not even drunkenness, just consistent drinking) can damage the liver, the kidneys, the brain, and the temperament of the drinker.  I know - I've had more than one family member and/or friend affected by it.  Even those who only drink socially or in "moderation."   Since God says it's not wise to even look upon the wine when it moves/gives color in the cup (when it is fully fermented), I'll stay away from it - and stand firm in my belief that Christ did not make fermented wine.  I won't be missing anything, either.  Any "health" benefits for my heart (or my stomach) can be gained via drinking non-fermented wine, aka grape juice.

 

That is not to say that someone who does partake is not saved.  Just not wise.  :icon_smile:

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I know a number of doctors who recommend grape juice for the stomach. Anyone who has a stomach issue who has tried to drink alcohol can tell you that the alcohol in the drink further upsets the stomach. It doesn't help it.

 

~~~~~

 

The fact remains that references to wine in the Bible often mean grape juice.  Non-fermented.  God says it's not wise.  That's enough for me to know that Christ would not have created a wine that was fermented to the point that it could cause intoxication.    It's not wise.  *shrugs* Who am I to say I know better than God? 

 

Consistent drinking of alcohol (not even drunkenness, just consistent drinking) can damage the liver, the kidneys, the brain, and the temperament of the drinker.  I know - I've had more than one family member and/or friend affected by it.  Even those who only drink socially or in "moderation."   Since God says it's not wise to even look upon the wine when it moves/gives color in the cup (when it is fully fermented), I'll stay away from it - and stand firm in my belief that Christ did not make fermented wine.  I won't be missing anything, either.  Any "health" benefits for my heart (or my stomach) can be gained via drinking non-fermented wine, aka grape juice.

 

That is not to say that someone who does partake is not saved.  Just not wise.  :icon_smile:

 

 

If you're at the table, are you going to tell the Master, it is not clean and not drink?

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If you're at the table, are you going to tell the Master, it is not clean and not drink?

Um, what table are you talking about?  If you are talking about in Heaven, there won't be intoxicating beverage there, because, for starters yeast (leaven) is a picture of sin and there is no sin in Heaven...Secondly, God said it's not wise, therefore He wouldn't provide it.  

 

At other tables here on earth, I will refuse it.  If I'm even at a table where it's served.  Have been (unwillingly or unknowingly) and have done.  

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What word remained unchanged until the 50's?  

 

God has said enough on the subject of drinking when He said, "be not drunk with wine" because we are to be "filled with the Spirit."  

 

What word?  Wine!  When the KJV was written one had to look at the context to see if it was referring to new or old wine, grape juice or fermented and alcoholic.  Much later both definitions began to appear in dictionaries, and again one had to pay attention to context to know which was being spoken of.  Funk and Wagnall's carried both definitions in theirs for example as recently as the middle of the last century.  Satan had to change that of course, it wouldn't jive with all the MVs he was producing.

 

So I take it you're on the Bible's side and against any alcoholic drinks?   :scratchchin:   Good!

 

 

I believe that all Wines are fermented, now and in the bible. Christians that enjoy having a glass of Wine, not to get drunk, are still Christians. Now having a cup of Wine, and trying to share the gospel don’t mix. Remember that there are brother in Christ in Chile, and other countries that have Wine with their dinners. So if you set a Wine glass before me, I will join you my friend, cheers. :coffee: coffee works too."

 

The customs of a nation or people does not make such right.  Cannibalism and pedophilia are customs around the world too.  A christian who enjoys wine is a sinning christian.  Don't be a fool and study the subject properly.

 

I am amazed at the verbal acrobatics people go through to say that wine, as used in the Bible is really grape juice. 

 

It's not surprising you take the liberal and lost view since you rebel against Christ's New Testament Churches.  It's you folks who have to do the acrobatics to justify you're drinking.  There are hundreds of verses against it and all of them are in a bad light.  It's a sin plain and simple but the natural man receive not the things of God for they are foolish to him.

 

Who had Wine, to help him self of stmoach problems, in the New Testament?

 

It was grape juice.  Study after study today shows that grape juice is much better for us than fermented wine.  Any benefit one might get from a bottle of fermented wine pales in comparison to grape juice.  Again, you folks don't have the sense to read context yet.  Please put away your beloved enemy, pray about it and read.

 

My preacher just completed a 6-part series on the evils of your beloved enemy, maybe you'd like to watch one or two sermons?

Edited by swathdiver

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The same word for wine in John 2:3 is used in Romans 14:21

 

Jhn 2:3

And when they wanted wine, G3631 the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. G3631

 

Rom 14:21

It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, G3631 nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

...and lets not forget

 

Eph 5:18

And be not drunk with wine, G3631 wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

 

I guess what alot are saying is there is a problem with the KJV because they didn't have the word "juice" in 1611 ???

In our King James Bible, the English word "wine" was translated from the Greek word "oinos".  Oinos was a generic word.  It could either mean fermented wine, or unfermented wine.  Context shows which it was.

In John 2, the wine surely was unfermented.  We come to this conclusion because of Jesus' very nature.  Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost... not to assist them further down the road to destruction.  The guests at the wedding had already "well drunk".  Why would Jesus give alcohol to a people who had already well drunk?  He would be contributing to their drunkenness.  No, He would not have given alcohol to a people that had well drunk.  He did not contribute to sin.

 

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The remark by the governor of the feast in Which he says, "thou hast kept the good wine until now" deserves a full explana­tion, as many automatically assume that the best wine must have been the most alcoholic. The problem with some is as Jesus said, Ye judge after the flesh. (John 8:15) In understanding the nature of the wine we should again take heed to our Lord's words, Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. (John 7:24) The Rev. Dr. William Patton quotes The Rev. Dr. Jacobus' comments on the wine our Lord created, which states:
 

This wine was not that fermented liquor which passes now under that name. All who know of the wines then used will understand rather the unfermented juice of the grape. The present wines of Jerusalem and Lebanon, as we tasted them, were commonly boiled and sweet, without intoxicating qualities, such as we here get in liquors called wines. The boiling prevents the fermentation. Those were esteemed the best wines which were least strong.
 

He also quotes Dr. S.M. Isaacs, an eminent Jewish rabbi as saying:

 

In the Holy Land they do not commonly use fermented wines. The best wines are preserved sweet and unfermented.

We also find agreement with this in Professor Moses Stuart's writings, which state:

Facts show that ancients not only preserved their wine unfermented, but regarded it as of a higher flavor and finer quality than fermented wine."

Dr. Adam Clarke's comment on the term "good wine," reads:
 

That which our Lord now made being perfectly pure, and highly nutritive.

This is a clear reference to pure, fresh, unfermented grape juice. Albert Barnes' in-depth comments on this point here are worthy of consideration:

We should not be deceived by the phrase "good wine." We use the phrase to denote that it is good in its strength, and its power to intoxicate. But no such sense is to be attached to the word here. Pliny, Plutarch, and Horace describe wine as good, or mention that as the best wine which was harmless, or innocent...It should not be assumed, therefore, that the "good wine" was stronger than the other. It is rather to be presumed that It was milder. That would be the best wine certainly. The wine referred to here was doubtless such as was commonly drunk in Palestine. That was the pure juice of the grape. It was not brandied wine; nor drugged wine; nor wine compounded of various substances such as we drink in this land. The common wine drunk in Palestine was that which was the simple juice of the grape. We use the word wine now to denote the kind of liquid which passes under that name in this country-always fermented, and always containing a considerable portion of alcohol-not only the alcohol produced by fermentation, but added to keep it or make it stronger. But we have no right to take that sense of the word, and go with it to the interpretation of the Scriptures. We should endeavor to get into the exact circumstances of those times; ascertain precisely what idea the word would convey to those who used it then; and apply that sense to the word in the interpretation of the Bible. And there is not the slightest evidence that the word so used would have conveyed any idea but that of the pure juice of the grape;...

"Wine in the Bible" by Leighton G. Campbell; pp. 146-148

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Yes He made it, but He did not pour it down anyone throat. Just like everyrhing else we do or eat, He give us the liberty to do so. If we abuse it, we will pay for it. Keep eatting fast foods, you will die of a massive heart attack.

If Christ made alcohol for a bunch of people that had already "well drunk," then He has no right preventing drunkards from entering the Kingdom of Heaven.  Yet, His Word tells us drunkards will not be in Heaven.

Sorry TGL, but Christ did not make alcohol.

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Okay, let's rephrase that: Jesus made alcohol , (which is actually a corruption of the natural sugars in the grape, a type of leavening- it doesn't occur by nature- it MUSTbe done by man, with intention of altering what God has made perfectly), and provided it to a bunch of drunk  folks, knowing full well the reason they wanted it was to get drunker?  This goes against everything that Jesus was about.

 

"Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!"

 

Now, some will say, "Jesus didn't give i tto them to look on their nakedness", yet that would surely be the result! Alcohol is a primary contributor to fornication, and do we think  Jesus didn't know that? yet here He is, giving His neighbours drink, putting, if you will, HIS bottle to them, and making them not just drunken, but drunkER!

Exactly!  Even bartenders know not to give alcohol to a man who is already drunk!  Yet, many would have our Lord providing 120-180 gallons of alcohol to a people who had already "well drunk."

Amazing that they cannot see what impact their interpretation has.  Drunkards die and go to hell every day because they believe that nonsense that "Jesus made alcohol."  They are in torments because they believed the line "Jesus drank alcohol."  They are awaiting the lake of fire because Brother So-and-so told them they could drink in moderation.  They began drinking "in moderation" and that vile drink did exactly what Solomon said it could do... it deceived them.  They became addicted to it, they were convinced that "one more drink won't hurt" and "Being buzzed is not drunk."

So many are in hell today because they don't know what the Bible says concerning alcohol and sadly, because many who claim to know the Bible gave them that excuse to drink.

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  Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913 + 1828)

ARTFL > Webster's Dictionary > Searching for wine:

Displaying 1 result(s) from the 1828 edition:

 

WINE, n. [Gr.]

 

1. The fermented juice of grapes; as the wine of the Madeira grape; the wine of Burgundy or Oporto.

 

2. The juice of certain fruits, prepared with sugar, spirits, &c.; as currant wine; gooseberry wine.

 

3. Intoxication.

 

  Noah awoke from his wine. Genesis 9.

 

4. Drinking.

 

  They that tarry long at the wine. Proverbs 23.

 

Corn and wine, in Scripture, are put for all kinds of necessaries for subsistence. Psalm.

 

Bread and wine, in the Lords supper, are symbols of the body and blood of Christ.  

 

1 Timothy 3  

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

 

Pastors shouldn't drink wine and deacons shouldn't drink much wine...are we talking grape juice here?  Why can't Pastors drink grape juice and why can deacons only drink a little grape juice?  Or is verse 3 fermented and then verse 8 unfermented? 

 

This is why it seems like acrobatics. 

Edited by robmac68

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Who had Wine, to help him self of stmoach problems, in the New Testament?

That wine prescribed to Timothy was not alcoholic.  Alcohol will inflame an already infirmed stomach.  Doctors will tell patients with stomach imfirmities not to drink alcohol.

 

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  Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913 + 1828)

ARTFL > Webster's Dictionary > Searching for wine:

Displaying 1 result(s) from the 1828 edition:

 

WINE, n. [Gr.]

 

1. The fermented juice of grapes; as the wine of the Madeira grape; the wine of Burgundy or Oporto.

 

2. The juice of certain fruits, prepared with sugar, spirits, &c.; as currant wine; gooseberry wine.

 

3. Intoxication.

 

  Noah awoke from his wine. Genesis 9.

 

4. Drinking.

 

  They that tarry long at the wine. Proverbs 23.

 

Corn and wine, in Scripture, are put for all kinds of necessaries for subsistence. Psalm.

 

Bread and wine, in the Lords supper, are symbols of the body and blood of Christ.  

 

1 Timothy 3  

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

 

Pastors shouldn't drink wine and deacons shouldn't drink much wine...are we talking grape juice here?  Why can't Pastors drink grape juice and why can deacons only drink a little grape juice?  Or is verse 3 fermented and then verse 8 unfermented? 

 

This is why it seems like acrobatics. 

Proper study will reveal that both verse 3 and verse 8 are unfermented

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maybe you would want to do an exhaustive study on the word "contradiction." 

 

How does someone have the belief "the KJV is the literal Word of God for english speaking people" and then come up with the thought, "wine is not wine, it is juice!" 

 

No wonder most the lost world thinks Christians are a bunch of hypocritical knuckleheads.  We spend hours and hours trying to justify wine being juice and then try to tell other "Christians" they are using the wrong Bible if they are not using the KJV because it's perfect.

Goodness!  Don't have a conniption fit over this!

Does every word in our KJV Bible mean the same exact thing, every single time it is used?

Absolutely not.

 

Example:

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Here "meat" applies to fruits and vegetables.

 

Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Here "meat" refers to animal meat as well as the herbs and fruits.

 

Genesis 27:4 And make me savoury meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless thee before I die.

Here "meat" is an obvious reference to animal meat.

 

Leviticus 2:1 And when any will offer a meat offering unto the LORD, his offering shall be of fine flour; and he shall pour oil upon it, and put frankincense thereon:

Here "meat" is a reference to FLOUR - most commentaries interpret this as "meal."

 

Got it?

Now, why would not allow the same thing for the generic word "wine?"  Have you done any type of study on the word?  I have.  Took me the better part of two years off and on to go through every single reference for "wine" and all the derivatives for the word.  I found 8 different uses for the word.  I can tell you, it does not ALWAYS refer to alcoholic wine, and sometimes it does.  Sometimes the context is not clear as to whether or not it was alcoholic or not. 

This verse demonstrates clearly that "wine" often times IS a reference to freshly squeezed juice:

Isaiah 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

"In the CLUSTER?"  In other words, the Lord calls it "wine" when it is still a GRAPE, and the idea is that those grapes will be harvested, and pressed into someone's cup to drink immediately. 

 

Another example:

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Obviously, this passage is not speaking of any literal beverage, but is figurative in language.  There are many similar passages to this, that are prophetic and figurative.

 

Example:

1 Samuel 25:18 Then Abigail made haste, and took two hundred loaves, and two bottles of wine, and five sheep ready dressed, and five measures of parched corn, and an hundred clusters of raisins, and two hundred cakes of figs, and laid them on asses.

OK - so Abigail brings out enough food to feed David's small rebel army of 600 men, but only brings out two bottles of wine?  Did she bring wine glasses as well?

No, this was the preserved must, (similar to our concentrate), that they could dilute.  It would have been enough to go with the meal for all of David's men.   It was NOT alcoholic.

 

Example:

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

This is a clear reference to alcoholic wine, since it is mentioned together with "strong drink."

 

Now, one thing we can say about John 2, and our Lord turning water into "wine" is that it is NOT CLEAR from the passage.  If it were clear, then we would not be debating it so frequently. 

Kindofblue says that he makes alcoholic beverages, and that is a natural process.  But it is a DECAYING process, unless you believe in evolution ("everything gets better with time" right?)  That being the case, I can not imagine that our Lord would make something that was not perfect.  But that is just my opinion.

In the case of John 2, the relevant passages are Prov. 20:1, Prov. 23:29-35, and Hab. 2:15.  If Jesus Christ made alcohol, then He is in direct violation of 3 different passages of OT Scripture. 

 

I don't see that happening.

 

In Christ,

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  Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913 + 1828)

ARTFL > Webster's Dictionary > Searching for wine:

Displaying 1 result(s) from the 1828 edition:

 

WINE, n. [Gr.]

 

1. The fermented juice of grapes; as the wine of the Madeira grape; the wine of Burgundy or Oporto.

 

2. The juice of certain fruits, prepared with sugar, spirits, &c.; as currant wine; gooseberry wine.

 

3. Intoxication.

 

  Noah awoke from his wine. Genesis 9.

 

4. Drinking.

 

  They that tarry long at the wine. Proverbs 23.

 

Corn and wine, in Scripture, are put for all kinds of necessaries for subsistence. Psalm.

 

Bread and wine, in the Lords supper, are symbols of the body and blood of Christ.  

 

1 Timothy 3  

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

 

Pastors shouldn't drink wine and deacons shouldn't drink much wine...are we talking grape juice here?  Why can't Pastors drink grape juice and why can deacons only drink a little grape juice?  Or is verse 3 fermented and then verse 8 unfermented? 

 

This is why it seems like acrobatics. 

Yes, many times, the OT refers to wine as part of their harvest:

Deuteronomy 11:14 That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.

Silly old KJV!  People don't gather in WINE!  They gather in GRAPES! 

But can you see how the KJV has a broad definition for "wine" that includes many different things?

The word "wine" comes from the word "vine" and can refer to any thing that comes from the vine, in any of its stages: on the vine, harvested off the vine, pressed into fresh juice, or fermented wine. 

 

No verbal gymnastics, just study.

 

In Christ,

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If Christ made alcohol for a bunch of people that had already "well drunk," then He has no right preventing drunkards from entering the Kingdom of Heaven.  Yet, His Word tells us drunkards will not be in Heaven.

Sorry TGL, but Christ did not make alcohol.

 

 

Then why did the drunkards say, you saved the best for last, does the bible say they were drunk?

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Fermentation occurs naturally.  Yeast, which is a substance in nature, devours sugar, and produces alcohol.  It is a completely natural process.  Making beer or wine is just controlling that process and keeping bacteria and other foreign substances out so the fermentation is pure.  I am a beer maker, so I know how to control the process well.  It is completely natural.  Making beer and wine is merely controlling the natural process.  It begins as soon as a sugary liquid comes into contact with yeast, which is naturally in the air, so it begins immediately.  Wine makers and beer makers merely accelerate the natural process by adding yeast and keeping it in a sterile environment so it is pure.  It is not corrupted at all.  In fact, it produces very delicious beverages when done well.  There are terrible tasting beer and wine out there, but that is usually the inferior mass marketed garbage, and not the fine wines and craft beers that are wonderful.  :-)  

 

Jesus did not serve wine to drunk people.  A wedding feast in that day occurred over a long period of time.  The best wine is served first.  Once people have tasted the best, the inferior was served.  The same is often done today at social events.  You experience the most flavor the first couple bites of food or drinks of wine.  After that, your taste buds have grown accustomed to the flavor, and the flavor is not a vivid.  That is why people serve the best first.

Controlling the process to make wine  makes the difference in the end product between vinegar and wine-vinegar happens naturally, while wine occurs when controlled by man.

 As for the best/worse, yes, even with non-intoxicating things, the taste buds will be influenced, if you will, by that which comes first, and that includes juice.

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