Are Christians That Drink Wine Not Saved?

[TheSword]

Beer is not a strong drink.  It's alcohol content ranges from 4-8% typically.  Wine is around 12-14%.  Strong drink like bourbon or vodka is way higher than wine.  So beer is really a weak drink.

 

The principal is not to drink to excess and become drunk. In the NT, Paul says deacons and pastors are not to be given to much wine (which means a little is fine).  

 

Why do you feel compelled to force an interpretation of the Bible on others when my interpretation is just as valid?  I honestly do not see why this is an important issue.  Some enjoy in moderation, others abstain.  We can all get along.  :-)

 

It is certainly true that the words translated wine (yâyin) and strong drink (shâkar) are different in the Old Testament and reflect different levels of alcoholic content.  However, keep in mind that distillation of alcohol did not come about until the 12^th century so the max alcoholic content of “strong drink” could be no more than 12%-15% and liquor as we know it did not exist.  The wine that we know of today falls in this category at an average of 13.5%.  Today, strong drink would definitely include all liqeuers, liquors (which can go up to at least 75%), and what is sold on shelves as wine; but just because the max available has changed this doesn't mean that the base standard of what constitutes "strong drink" has.  Wine as we know it today was, and therefore still is, considered "strong drink."  Of all the times “strong drink” is found in the Bible, it is always translated from the same word and is never condoned or used in a positive context.  In fact, its context is always that of either prohibition or condemnation.  Even if the max content is cut in half to 6%, this still encompasses most beer (usually 4-6%). Beer would certainly be considered strong drink.

[TheSword]

My final input on the issue regarding all the mentions of drinking in moderation:

 

The Bible says not to get drunk, but doesn’t say not to drink (Eph 5:18; Titus 2:2, 4, 6; 1 Cor 5:11)

Clearly you can’t get drunk on something non-alcoholic.  An important facet of this, though, is what constitutes being drunk, or rather where is the point of consumption where one is no longer of sound mind or in control.  Where is this point and how does one know when they’ve reached it?  More importantly, how does one know WHEN they will reach it so that they may stop before becoming intoxicated?  Indeed, this point is different for every individual.  However, it also varies for the individual based on numerous outlying factors such as hydration level, recent and subsequent food intake, type and content of the food consumed, blood sugar levels and sensitivity to its changes, etc.

 

Also of importance is what marks the point at which one crosses from sobriety to intoxication?  A buzz?  Slurred speech? A dizzy feeling?  I contend that is the very moment one’s thought process is altered and their ability to discern right from wrong begins to diminish.  Speaking from experience as both a participant and an observer, this typically happens even before a person feels a “buzz” and continues to get worse as alcohol continues to enter the system and ends only when all alcohol is metabolized out.  The bottom line on my point here is that if your assertion that it only becomes bad or sinful when one crosses the line from sobriety to intoxication then drinking any amount of alcohol is playing a very dangerous game.   Every sip of alcohol is like playing Russian roulette with sin because you don’t know which chamber (or sip) is loaded with a bullet (or sin).  The only certainty is that there is a bullet somewhere in your glass or bottle.  It is trying to get as close to the line as possible without stepping over it and incurring consequence.  The problem is that the line is so blurry that there’s no way to tell when one is about to cross it.

 

Additionally, I think this line of thought also confuses what is the cause and what is the effect.  This says that drunkenness/intoxication is the cause of debauchery (sin).  However, the nature of the wine (alcohol) is what causes the debauchery and drunkenness/intoxication is merely the description of the condition.  From a technical and teleological perspective, the alcohol is absorbed into the bloodstream which then immediately begins to degrade motor skills and cognitive ability.  It is not as if the body waits until there is a predetermined amount of alcohol stored up in the system to begin to exhibit symptoms of intoxication.  From the moment the first sip of alcohol enters the system it begins to cause an effect and the accumulation of alcohol merely causes accumulated effect.  To bring this back around to Biblical principle, consider the following excerpt from Wine in the Bible: A Biblical Study on the Use of Alcoholic Beverages:

 

“I found one of the most powerful Biblical indictments against intoxicating wine in Ephesians 5:18, where Paul condemns wine as the cause of debauchery and shows the irreconcilable contrast between the spirit of wine and the Holy Spirit of God. To my great surprise, however, I found that most English translations and commentaries have chosen to translate or interpret Ephesians 5:18 by making "drunkenness" rather than "wine" the cause of debauchery. This was surprising to me because not only the Catholic and Protestant Italian translations, with which I am most familiar, but also numerous other ancient and modern translations, all translate Paul’s text as saying that in the very nature of wine is debauchery…The translators’ bias toward wine became most evident in the study of the apostolic admonitions to abstinence, expressed through the verb nepho and the adjective nephalios. The first meaning of the verb is "to abstain from wine" and of the adjective "abstinent, without wine." Yet these words have been consistently translated with their secondary sense of being "temperate, sober, steady," rather than by their primary sense of being "abstinent." Such biased and inaccurate translations have misled many sincere Christians into believing that the Bible teaches moderation in the use of alcoholic beverages, rather than abstinence from them.

 

It was equally surprising for me to discover that the fundamental reason given by Peter and Paul for their call to a life of mental vigilance and physical abstinence is eschatological, namely, preparation to live in the holy presence of Christ at His soon Coming...To abstain from intoxicating substances represents a tangible response to God’s invitation to make concrete preparation for the physical return of Christ.”

 

Incidentally, I highly recommend this book for studying the issue of alcohol.  You can get it as well as read portions (Intro and Chapters 2, 4-6) at:

 

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/1.html

 

 

Edited to add emphasis/bolding.

[John81]

Some really good posts in this thread!

 

Another seven or so pages and maybe we'll have this nailed down!

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Leighton G. Campbell's book, "Wine in the Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence" is one of the most exhaustive studies on the subject I have ever come across.

I have the entire book in MS Word format (.doc) if anyone is interested in reading or scanning through it.

[swathdiver]

Leighton G. Campbell's book, "Wine in the Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence" is one of the most exhaustive studies on the subject I have ever come across.

I have the entire book in MS Word format (.doc) if anyone is interested in reading or scanning through it.

 

Sure, SFIC, I'd like a copy if that's ok with you.  Send it to me at my screen name @yahoo.com.  Thanks!

[Standing Firm In Christ]

sent from myscreenname@hotmail.com

[JerryNumbers]

Sheila Blair arrested in Benton for 11th DWI since 1995

 

This being about drinking thought I would mentioned this. yet her maximum sentence will be 30 days in jail, for her last one was in 2007, & the DA can only go back 5 years.

 

Her drinking influence may have come from drinking Christians that only drank one of two at a time, if so shame on them.

 

And another thought about the one or two, a fellow I know got stopped once & they asked him how many he had drank, he stated, "Only one or two." Strange, in the breath test & them later blood test he was way over the legal % to drive & got a DUI, so be careful even if you drink only one or two, you might get a DUI too.

[JerryNumbers]

My final input on the issue regarding all the mentions of drinking in moderation:

 

The Bible says not to get drunk, but doesn’t say not to drink (Eph 5:18; Titus 2:2, 4, 6; 1 Cor 5:11)

Clearly you can’t get drunk on something non-alcoholic.  An important facet of this, though, is what constitutes being drunk, or rather where is the point of consumption where one is no longer of sound mind or in control.  Where is this point and how does one know when they’ve reached it?  More importantly, how does one know WHEN they will reach it so that they may stop before becoming intoxicated?  Indeed, this point is different for every individual.  However, it also varies for the individual based on numerous outlying factors such as hydration level, recent and subsequent food intake, type and content of the food consumed, blood sugar levels and sensitivity to its changes, etc.

 

Also of importance is what marks the point at which one crosses from sobriety to intoxication?  A buzz?  Slurred speech? A dizzy feeling?  I contend that is the very moment one’s thought process is altered and their ability to discern right from wrong begins to diminish.  Speaking from experience as both a participant and an observer, this typically happens even before a person feels a “buzz” and continues to get worse as alcohol continues to enter the system and ends only when all alcohol is metabolized out.  The bottom line on my point here is that if your assertion that it only becomes bad or sinful when one crosses the line from sobriety to intoxication then drinking any amount of alcohol is playing a very dangerous game.   Every sip of alcohol is like playing Russian roulette with sin because you don’t know which chamber (or sip) is loaded with a bullet (or sin).  The only certainty is that there is a bullet somewhere in your glass or bottle.  It is trying to get as close to the line as possible without stepping over it and incurring consequence.  The problem is that the line is so blurry that there’s no way to tell when one is about to cross it.

 

Additionally, I think this line of thought also confuses what is the cause and what is the effect.  This says that drunkenness/intoxication is the cause of debauchery (sin).  However, the nature of the wine (alcohol) is what causes the debauchery and drunkenness/intoxication is merely the description of the condition.  From a technical and teleological perspective, the alcohol is absorbed into the bloodstream which then immediately begins to degrade motor skills and cognitive ability.  It is not as if the body waits until there is a predetermined amount of alcohol stored up in the system to begin to exhibit symptoms of intoxication.  From the moment the first sip of alcohol enters the system it begins to cause an effect and the accumulation of alcohol merely causes accumulated effect.  To bring this back around to Biblical principle, consider the following excerpt from Wine in the Bible: A Biblical Study on the Use of Alcoholic Beverages:

 

“I found one of the most powerful Biblical indictments against intoxicating wine in Ephesians 5:18, where Paul condemns wine as the cause of debauchery and shows the irreconcilable contrast between the spirit of wine and the Holy Spirit of God. To my great surprise, however, I found that most English translations and commentaries have chosen to translate or interpret Ephesians 5:18 by making "drunkenness" rather than "wine" the cause of debauchery. This was surprising to me because not only the Catholic and Protestant Italian translations, with which I am most familiar, but also numerous other ancient and modern translations, all translate Paul’s text as saying that in the very nature of wine is debauchery…The translators’ bias toward wine became most evident in the study of the apostolic admonitions to abstinence, expressed through the verb nepho and the adjective nephalios. The first meaning of the verb is "to abstain from wine" and of the adjective "abstinent, without wine." Yet these words have been consistently translated with their secondary sense of being "temperate, sober, steady," rather than by their primary sense of being "abstinent." Such biased and inaccurate translations have misled many sincere Christians into believing that the Bible teaches moderation in the use of alcoholic beverages, rather than abstinence from them.

 

It was equally surprising for me to discover that the fundamental reason given by Peter and Paul for their call to a life of mental vigilance and physical abstinence is eschatological, namely, preparation to live in the holy presence of Christ at His soon Coming...To abstain from intoxicating substances represents a tangible response to God’s invitation to make concrete preparation for the physical return of Christ.”

 

Incidentally, I highly recommend this book for studying the issue of alcohol.  You can get it as well as read portions (Intro and Chapters 2, 4-6) at:

 

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/1.html

 

 

Edited to add emphasis/bolding.

 

 

A friend of mine from years ago got into drag racing. I was once talking to him knowing he drank quite a bit & I asked him do you drink while drag racing. He stated no.  I said that is hard to believe for I know how you used to be & nothing would stop you from drinking. he them said, "No I never drink on racing day, I have tired it, but it hurts my reaction time, & I will not drink even a sip."

 

I said are you sure, as much as you drink surely one sip would not affect you. He them said, "Yes it will effect me, I've tired it several times & it hurts my reaction time quite a bit, & no one on my pit crew pops a top until after my last race."

 

So the Christian that drinks only one drink receives an effect from that one drink, & will say & think things that they never would think nor say if they would stay away from alcoholic  beverages. That Christians only fools their self & they're very selfish. Selfish because they kill their witnessing every time an alcoholic  beverage goes past their lips. And I believe they hate to have this pointed out to them for those alcoholic beverages means very much to them & they refuse to give it up even for Christ, the one that gave His life for them on that old tree saving them from that lake of fire.

[JerryNumbers]

sent from myscreenname@hotmail.com

 

Your way off topic, why not get back on topic, we really don't care what you use to post.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Not off topic at all, Jerry. I was answering swathdiver, telling him that I sent him a book on alcohol via my email address.

[John81]

A friend of mine from years ago got into drag racing. I was once talking to him knowing he drank quite a bit & I asked him do you drink while drag racing. He stated no.  I said that is hard to believe for I know how you used to be & nothing would stop you from drinking. he them said, "No I never drink on racing day, I have tired it, but it hurts my reaction time, & I will not drink even a sip."

 

I said are you sure, as much as you drink surely one sip would not affect you. He them said, "Yes it will effect me, I've tired it several times & it hurts my reaction time quite a bit, & no one on my pit crew pops a top until after my last race."

 

So the Christian that drinks only one drink receives an effect from that one drink, & will say & think things that they never would think nor say if they would stay away from alcoholic  beverages. That Christians only fools their self & they're very selfish. Selfish because they kill their witnessing every time an alcoholic  beverage goes past their lips. And I believe they hate to have this pointed out to them for those alcoholic beverages means very much to them & they refuse to give it up even for Christ, the one that gave His life for them on that old tree saving them from that lake of fire.

One thing I've noticed over the years, it doesn't matter if the drinker has had one drink, six or twelve, they all think they are just fine and the alcohol has not effected them.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Our State Laws state that one is DUI if his BAC is .08. (some states lower than that)

If just one ounce of alcohol has the propensity to dull our reflexes by 10% as Paul Harvey reported years ago, what do you suppose God's idea of drunken is?  Is it even remotely possible that God considers that one (who is not recognized as officially DUI by our government police) to be drunk when his reaction time is decreased by just one ounce of alcohol?

After all, God did say that kings were not allowed to drink lest they forget the law. 

Sounds like God's standards as to what is drunkenness are much more restrictive than our human government's standards.
 

[MatthewDiscipleOfGod]

Leighton G. Campbell's book, "Wine in the Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence" is one of the most exhaustive studies on the subject I have ever come across.

I have the entire book in MS Word format (.doc) if anyone is interested in reading or scanning through it.

 

As long as the author doesn't care you can send it to my username @yahoo.com

[JerryNumbers]

How is a person "given" to unfermented wine (vs3)????

 

" vs3  No drunkard: Not given to wine. The priests were not to drink wine when they went in to minister (Lev. 10:8, Lev. 10:9 ), lest they should drink and pervert the law.

vs8  Not given to much wine; for this is a great disparagement to any man, especially to a Christian, and one in office, unfits men for business, opens the door to many temptations. (Matthew Henry Commentary)"

 

Syriac version renders it, "who does not transgress over wine", or go beyond due bounds in the use of it, who is not immoderate in it; the Arabic version renders it, "not insolent through wine",  (John Gill Commentary)

 

Leviticus 10:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

⁸ And the Lord spake unto Aaron, saying,

⁹ Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

 

Why was Aaron told not to drink before going into the tabernacle rather than being told not to drink whatsoever like the Nazarites in Numbers chapter 6?

 

What does the Syriac version & Arabic version got to do with it when we have God's true Word to mankind in the King James Bible? 

[JerryNumbers]

One thing I've noticed over the years, it doesn't matter if the drinker has had one drink, six or twelve, they all think they are just fine and the alcohol has not effected them.

 

Amen & amen, for one drink has an effect on that person, yet they will not admit it.