Tithe With Out A Cheerful Heart?

[Salyan]

Jesus identified religious leaders as hypocrites (and other harsh words) when they were wrong.

Unless you can prove me wrong with Scripture, (that doesn't mean taking them out of context ) you can't prove me wrong when I say a preacher is greedy, ignorant of Scripture, or deceitful when teaching a monetary tithe. 

Where are those verses that prove me wrong, Salyan. Don't just say I am wrong, present the proof that I am.

 

Sigh. Actually, I didn't say your statements concerning the tithing question were wrong. I was pointing out that your attitude is wrong.  

 

You want verses? Okay...

 

 

Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man. Col. 4:6

 

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Matt. 7:1-5

 

Put on therefore, as the elect of God... kindness... Col. 3:12

 

And be ye kind one to another... Eph. 4:32

 

I cannot prove your cruel, false words about godly men to be wrong, because you will not be proven wrong! But your refusal to listen to others does not make your statements correct.  You want to be proven wrong? Come up here and meet my pastor.

[John81]

The Scriptures teach otherwise.  However, the Holy Spirit may place a burden to give offerings for other things, such as missions or to help a struggling family member.  The tithe is for the storehouse, your offerings can be given as the Lord leads through the Holy Ghost.

Do you attend the Jewish temple under the Old Covenant where a storehouse existed and used for the support of the priesthood and needy? Jesus fulfilled the law, the Old Covenant has been replaced by the New Covenant, the temple and priesthood system has been replaced by local churches and pastors.

 

Scripture commands that Christians are to give in accord with the will of God, out of love, doing so cheerfully and out of their abundance; which means those with more should give more. Christians are called to give to their home church, to support missionaries, to care for the poor and needy, and to provide for not only their immediate family, but also their extended family which is in need.

 

As the preacher told the man who worked for Coke during the Great Depression when he bragged about always giving a tithe and complained that some in the church gave exceedingly little or even nothing (due to the fact they had no jobs); that this man was not fulfilling his Christian duty. He told the man that in times of abundance, the Christian is called to give more. When those who have abundance give abundantly that makes up for the lack of those with nothing.

 

The Lord knows all things and when we seek His guidance He will direct us as to how much we should give. The Lord may guide one man to put 5 dollars in the collection, another 50, another 500 and yet another 5,000. If each does as the Lord told them, each of them is in the will of God, no more, no less.

 

The New Covenant says our giving is not to be by compulsion, which means there can be no "you are required to give 'X' amount. We are also told our giving should be between us and the Lord, not a matter we tell others about, not the pastor, not our friends or enemies, not the government. Our giving is primarily a spiritual matter between us and the Lord.

 

If the Word is properly preached, if folks are properly discipled, if the congregation is properly led to grow in Christ and they are doing so, there is no need for a pastor to plead for money or complain about the amount of giving. If we are walking right with the Lord, we will be giving in accord with His leading, out of hearts filled with love, gratitude, joy and cheerfulness. Then the local church will be fully supplied and well able to carry out the tasks the Lord has for that church.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I ask for Scripture that proves me wrong concerning the monetary tithe. Not one you have given has proven me wrong at all, Salyan.

As usual, no surprise.

[LindaR]

The Scriptures teach otherwise.  However, the Holy Spirit may place a burden to give offerings for other things, such as missions or to help a struggling family member.  The tithe is for the storehouse, your offerings can be given as the Lord leads through the Holy Ghost.

Where's the storehouse?

 

The storehouse is not the church house.

 

The fact is, there is no storehouse today.  The storehouse was located in Jerusalem in the Temple.  As of 70AD, there is no more Temple. 

 

The church does not store their "alleged" tithes in chambers in the church as the Levites stored their tithes (crops, flocks, and livestock) in the Temple storehouse chambers, until 70AD.

[The Glory Land]

Should I push the red power button?

[John81]

Should I push the red power button?

Why?

[The Glory Land]

Why?

Seem like most of my post are getting lock. :(

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Maybe this one won't. Maybe, just maybe, we can continue to post the truth as it is written in God's Word.

Of course, there's always the chance that some will not want the truth to continue because it

1. Allows them to see that they have been deceived for years. (No one likes to admit that)
2. Reveals their pastor, whether intentionally or unintentionally, has deceived them for years.
3. Reveals that they are not studying the Word of God enough.

[John81]

Seem like most of my post are getting lock.

That's a bummer. If you see one of your threads getting off track, or any folks posting in ways the Mods might pounce on, take the opportunity to post about this, asking posters to focus, post kindly, avoid personal attacks, including personal digs, and such.

 

Most threads get locked because of unkind, uncivil posts that carry one between two or more posters. You have the power to help police your own threads by trying to head such off.

[irishman]

SFIC, I did produce some scriptures, and you totally explained them away.  The Jews of the O.T. were mostly who occupied Israel, so of course they were talking to the Jews! Duh!  But is pointing that out, you seem to say that the O.T. is not for us, the church (as you stated outright) or Christian people.  Do you believe that the Old Testament is the Word of God?  If so, it is given to all peoples everywhere, and forever.

 

There are no verses as you demand other than those I cited, but there are none that are contrary to it either.  Since you claim tithing was under the law, we both know that it preceded the law, and was therefore overlapped, and adopted into the law, but since it precedes the law, it is a principle carried over (since nothing has been said to tithe or not to tithe in the New Testament according to you)

 

The verse in the New Testament were speaking to the Jews, yes, but we are all spiritual Jews (Gal. 3) and the seed of Abraham.  The judicial laws have been annulled, and many of the traditions and types (that are not necessary today), but the tithe is not a part of those.

[No Nicolaitans]

Three "observances" that were prior to the law being instituted, and they also became part of the law.

 

1.  Tithing (Genesis 14:18-20)

2.  Circumcision (Genesis 17:9-14)

3.  Keeping the Sabbath (Exodus 16:23-30)

 

The law was given to Israel in Exodus 20.

 

If we use the "tithing pre-dates the law" argument for why we should tithe today, why do we not also use the same argument for requiring circumcision and keeping the Sabbath today?

 

Please forgive me...I'm working from memory here...but I don't recall where keeping the Sabbath or circumcision were definitively declared to no longer be observed.  I know Paul basically said that circumcision doesn't profit you anything, but I can't recall that the New Testament says that people are no longer to observe the Sabbath or circumcision (if I'm wrong, please correct me).

 

Don't get me wrong...I'm in no way, shape, or form saying that we should observe the Sabbath or require circumcision...just pointing out what I see as a weakness in the "pre-law argument".

 

Though they aren't "forbidden" (if I'm right), they have been replaced with something better.

 

All three "Pre-law observances" have been replaced with something better.

 

1.  The Sabbath has been replaced with the Lord's day.

2.  Circumcision has been replaced with faith.

3.  Tithing has been replaced with "as you purpose in your heart" and "as God prospers you".

 

As Christians, we have no specific guideline in the New Testament other than those for giving. Yes, both guidelines were in relation to special offerings, but that's still the only guidelines we have.

 

I truly believe in my heart that if people gave according to those guidelines, the offerings would far surpass what tithing would bring in...but that's me.  

[Standing Firm In Christ]

SFIC, I did produce some scriptures, and you totally explained them away.  The Jews of the O.T. were mostly who occupied Israel, so of course they were talking to the Jews! Duh!  But is pointing that out, you seem to say that the O.T. is not for us, the church (as you stated outright) or Christian people.  Do you believe that the Old Testament is the Word of God?  If so, it is given to all peoples everywhere, and forever.

 

There are no verses as you demand other than those I cited, but there are none that are contrary to it either.  Since you claim tithing was under the law, we both know that it preceded the law, and was therefore overlapped, and adopted into the law, but since it precedes the law, it is a principle carried over (since nothing has been said to tithe or not to tithe in the New Testament according to you)

 

The verse in the New Testament were speaking to the Jews, yes, but we are all spiritual Jews (Gal. 3) and the seed of Abraham.  The judicial laws have been annulled, and many of the traditions and types (that are not necessary today), but the tithe is not a part of those.

The Old Testament clearly tells us that the tithe was agricultural in nature.  It was not money. 

That is what you appear to have such a hard time understanding.  There is no Scripture whatsoever that says the tithe was to be money.  To say we are to tithe money is to add to the Word of God.

God said He gave His Holy tithe to the Levites.  From what I understand, there are still Levites living on the Earth today.  Since there are still Levites, if tithes were still to be received, it would be the Levites who are to be the recipients of the tithe.  Not Pastor so-and-so who is a Gentile Believer.  Unless you can provide the verse that says God gave the tithe to Churches in other countries, you are merely denying the Word of God.

Numbers 18:24-26 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.

The reason I explained the verses you gave away is because as anyone can see, they say nothing of a tithe for Gentile Believers whatsoever. 
You say the Old Testament still applies today.  Tell me, Irishman, when is the last time you heard of the Elders of your tribe stoning a rebellious child?  If you have not, why not?  After all, the Old Testament is for us as you claim.   

The truth is the Old Testament is for our learning, but not all commands of the Old Testament are for the New Testament believer.  The Laws that were written in the Old Testament were to the children of Israel... not to us.  And Peter and James both said the same thing at the Jerusalem Council that I am saying here now. 

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to the Apostles that no greater burden be put upon the Gentile Converts than four necessary things.  Too bad the Holy Ghost didn't seek consultation from Irishman, eh?  You would certainly have set Him straight.


Sorry Irishman, but the tithe was not for us.  God's Word says He gave it to Israel.  God's Word later tells us that He abolished the tithe.  You are fighting against the Word of God,.


The Levirate marriage was prior to the Law and was carried into the Law.  Would you advocate I marry my deceased brothers wife seeing they had no children? 
God told Hosea to marry a harlot.  Would you balk if your son came home one day with a prostitute and said he was going to marry her?  Something tells me you would.

As I said, the Old Testament is there for our learning.  It's commands are not for us, nor are the blessings and cursings that God gave to Israel. 
Rightly dividing might be a class you would benefit from.  Then again, you might argue with the Teacher, so maybe not.



 

[swathdiver]

Unless you can prove me wrong

 

you can't prove me wrong 

Where are those verses that prove me wrong, Salyan. Don't just say I am wrong, present the proof that I am.

 

Nobody has been able to sway you in anything SFIC, Your moniker should be SFIP, P for Pride.  

 

Folks present scripture time and again and you swipe their verses right off the table and declare their failure to back up their case.  You my friend, suffer from pride and it's blinding you.  Maybe or maybe not from this issue, but your blinded by pride nonetheless.

 

You owe many folks here an apology for your comments towards them too.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Because I stand for what the Bible teaches I am prideful? 

Sorry swathdiver.  But you are dead wrong on that one. 

Perhaps it is you who is guilty of pride.  Too proud to admit that the Word of God nowhere teaches the saved of Christ to tithe their money to the Church.  Too proud to admit that the monetary tithe taught today is a man-made doctrine that the Church pushes off as being the Word of God.

Where are these verses that prove me wrong, swathdiver?  Tell you what, to be fair, I will go back and copy every verse that has been used in this thread. 

Then, you can apologize to me for the false accusations.

[Steve Schwenke]

Well, there has been the usual nonsense on this topic, which I have skipped over.  I have to give a shout-out to Salyan for saying what has needed to be said for a long time.  Thank you!

 

I won't take the trouble to quote everyone, but John81 and Pastor Markle have really spoken to the essense of this issue - giving out of love for the Lord Jesus Christ.  Pastor Markle's post is a gem, and worth reading and studying over.

 

I would like to share how I approach this issue as a pastor.  I do understand the principles of the New Testament, how that Salvation by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ frees us from all aspects of the Law.  This does not mean that we can abuse our liberty in Christ, but that our Liberty in Christ frees us to serve Him in a manner that the Law could not allow, even though the Law demanded it (see Deut. 6:5).  It is not always easy to love someone who is a taskmaster, but that is exactly what the Law demanded.  We are not under any demands whatsoever, but have the opportunity to freely and voluntarily serve Jesus Christ out of a pure and loving heart.

 

When it comes to giving, I emphasize II Cor. 9:6-7, and attempt to communicate that our giving should be done purposefully, cheerfully, willingly, and according to what he HAS, not what he does not have (so much for faith promise!).  (The last point is from II Cor. 8:12). 

So yes, SFIC does have one valid point - preachers that DEMAND a tithe are absolutely wrong.  I can agree to that.

 

Now for the new Christian, I use the PRINCIPLE of the tithe, pre-dating the law, as a baseline EXAMPLE of where we should start.  (Gen. 14).  (I know, I can hear the objections from the peanut gallery already...but I took care of that, and I won't have to read the nonsense from certain people!  )  The OT is in fact given to us for our ensamples, and for our admonition and learning.  (Rom. 15:4 and I Cor. 10:11).  We can learn something of a practical value, and use it in our daily lives without putting ourselves under the Law.  I use this PRINCIPLE (not demand!) to show the new convert that giving to the Lord's work is not something to be taken flippantly or carelessly, but rather purposefully and meaningfully.  In other words, ANYBODY can throw $5 in the offering plate, but is that really giving to the Lord's work, when you have a bank account overflowing?  No sir!  The Lord was not impressed with the wealthy men dropping off bags of gold to the temple, because it was not SACRIFICIAL giving.  A tithe is meant - on purpose - to test our faith and resolve.  And the Lord has taught us that if we cannot be faithful in the handling of our money, then we most certainly cannot be faithful when it comes to other important matters - like Bible doctrine.  (see Luke 16:10-12 w/ II Tim. 2:2).  Giving 10% as a baseline PRINCIPLE (not DEMAND!) helps the new Christian learn how to trust the Lord in their financial matters, makes them more cautious and prudent in their own financial affairs, and teaches them that - yes, indeed! - the Lord will provide for their daily needs when they put the Lord first place in their lives. 

I also encourage them to give of the firstfruits in accordance with Proverbs 3:9-10 (try dispensationalizing that one away!  )  In other words, we give to the Lord right off the top - just like ole' Uncle Sam does. 

 

The final thing that I teach in this matter is a verse that is much overlooked in these discussions:

2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

 

It has been my observation that the people that DON'T GIVE regularly, purposefully, cheerfully, willingly, and according to what they have, do not have the GRACE to serve the Lord properly.  (see Heb. 12:28)  Remember, we are to grow in GRACE (i.e. service!) and knowledge (II Pet. 3:18).

 

Now, I always make it clear that we are in the NT, and we are not in bondage to ANY of the OT Law, including the tithe.  I don't check the contribution worksheets to see who is giving and who is not.  I don't show up on people's doorsteps demanding their "tithe."  I don't stick my nose into people's financial affairs.  So, in other words, this is my counsel to them, and then they have to decide how they are going to act - without me standing over their shoulders "demanding" anything. 

It is my goal to START them giving, giving by faith (thus 10%), and then "graduating" from the baseline principle of 10% to going beyond the demands of the law.  To me, it is a step of faith to START giving, then to keep giving, and then to INCREASE in giving. 

 

(I also teach that the priority in giving to the Lord's work is to your local church, then to missions, and then to other projects or special offerings as needs arise. But that is another post for another day.)

 

In short, notice, there are no demands placed upon the new convert, but rather a scriptural principle and example to work from as a starting point.

Notice that the objective is to get them started, and then to help them understand the principles of the NT liberty in Christ, which will (hopefully) spur them to go beyond that baseline principle.

 

Anyway, I hope this is helpful to somebody out there!

As for the dissenter(s?).....

 

IN Christ,