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The Glory Land

Tithe With Out A Cheerful Heart?

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SFIC, I did produce some scriptures, and you totally explained them away.  The Jews of the O.T. were mostly who occupied Israel, so of course they were talking to the Jews! Duh!  But is pointing that out, you seem to say that the O.T. is not for us, the church (as you stated outright) or Christian people.  Do you believe that the Old Testament is the Word of God?  If so, it is given to all peoples everywhere, and forever.

Irishman, do you live in the Old Covenant dispensation of the law?  Are you not a NT Christian....a member of the body of Christ/the Church who lives in the dispensation of grace?

 

The Old Testament describes man's creation and fall and contains God's preparations for and prophecies of the coming of the Saviour, Jesus Christ.  The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old.  The Bible, all 66 books are the Word of God.  We need to "rightly divide" the Word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15) and make a distinction between Israel and the church.  There is no church mentioned in the OT.  Therefore the Mosaic Law that was given to the nation of Israel is for Israel.  The epistles of Paul, Peter, John, James and Jude are for the NT Christian who lives in the dispensation of grace.  The church is not Israel!

 

There are no verses as you demand other than those I cited, but there are none that are contrary to it either.  Since you claim tithing was under the law, we both know that it preceded the law, and was therefore overlapped, and adopted into the law, but since it precedes the law, it is a principle carried over (since nothing has been said to tithe or not to tithe in the New Testament according to you)

Tithing is not a principle...it was a custom before the law and a command during the dispensation of the law.  The tithe that preceded the law is not the same type of tithe that is preached today in our churches.  It was not monetary and Abraham only tithed once and as for Jacob, his promise to tithe (or give a tenth) was not fulfilled until 21 years after he "bargained" with God. (Genesis 28:20-22).  Also, Abraham's tithe didn't consist of his own possessions but were from the spoils of war (Genesis 14:18-20; Hebrews 7:4) and Abraham returned the 90% to Bera, the King of Sodom.  Do you practice the Levirate marriage (practice of marrying your dead brother's wife to continue his seed), and polygamy?  They also were practiced before the law.

 

The verse in the New Testament were speaking to the Jews, yes, but we are all spiritual Jews (Gal. 3) and the seed of Abraham.  The judicial laws have been annulled, and many of the traditions and types (that are not necessary today), but the tithe is not a part of those.

There is no such thing as a "spiritual" Jew!  Gentiles who are born again are Abraham's seed and heirs "according to the promise" (Galatians 3:29).  That doesn't make Gentiles "spiritual Jews" anymore than born again ethnic Jews (as I am) become spiritual Gentiles.  In the New Testament (rightly dividing the Word of truth), the Church is never called, and is not, a “spiritual Israel” or a “new Israel.” The term “Israel” is either used of the nation or the people as a whole, or of the believing remnant within. It is never used of the Church in general or of Gentile believers in particular.

 

All the ordinances (of which tithing was one of those ordinances) were nailed to the cross of Christ. (Colossians 2:14)....those same ordinances were abolished in His flesh (Ephesians 2:14-15)

Edited by LindaR

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Preacher:  You tithe on the first ten percent of your income.

God’s Word:  You tithe on crops, and every tenth animal that passes under the rod.  NOT the first, but the tenth.  See Leviticus 27:30-33.  Preachers are mixing firstfruits with the tithe and they are NOT the same.  In Nehemiah 10:37-38 we learn that the firstfruits were taken to the temple for the priests, and the tithe was taken to the Levites to go into their cities.

Preacher:  The Levites worked full-time at The Temple.

God’s Word:  The Levities and priests were divided into “24 courses” and they rotated working at The Temple one week out of every 24 weeks.  Therefore, the priests and Levites actually worked at The Temple about two weeks a year.  The rest of the time they had regular jobs. See First Chronicles 24 for the priests and chapters 25 and 26 for the Levites.

Preacher:  You tithe the BEST to God.

God’s Word:  You tithe every tenth animal whether that animal be good OR BAD.  See Leviticus 27:30-33.

Preacher:  The firstfruits of your income belong to God.

God’s Word:  In the Old Testament, every time a firstfruits offering is mentioned it is referring to the first of the crop, assets that came from God’s hand, not man’s labor.  Firstfruits offerings has nothing to do with income.

Preacher:  The tithe was taken to The Temple.

God’s Word:  The tithe was taken to the Levites to go into their cities.  See Nehemiah 10:37-38.

Preacher:  Malachi 3:10 Take all the tithes to the storehouse.

God’s Word:  The Levites received the tithe, and they were required to take a tenth of the tithe to the priests.  ONLY that tithe went to the storehouse, NOT the tithe from the people.  Again, see Nehemiah 10:37-38.

Preacher:  You are robbing God if you don’t bring your tithe to the church.  Malachi 3:8-10.

God’s Word:  The priests were robbing God, not the people.  The priests robbed God of the tithe by stealing the Levites portion (Nehemiah 13).  The priests robbed God of the offerings by giving the worst and keeping the best (Malachi 1).

God defined His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33 as HOLY.  How can anyone change God’s definition and then call a tenth of their income a HOLY tithe!
 

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  1.  In post #13, iamchief posted the following verses:

    Acts 6:2   Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. 
    Acts 6:3   Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. 
    Acts 6:4   But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.

    Nothing in that passage, nor in that chapter, nor in the entire book of the Acts of the Apostles is said of tithes whatsoever.

    * while iamchief did mention “double honour”, he did not give the Church reference.  But even that does not say double honour means tithes.  One has to add tithes there, for it is not there.
  2. In post #19, NoNicolatians posted 2 Corinthians 9:7, which tells how we are to base our giving… as we choose in our own hearts to give.
     
  3. In post #25, LindaR posted 2 Corinthians 8:12, which does not say anything of tithes, but giving according to what one has and not according to what one does not have. 

    *this verse shoots down the false doctrine of Faith Promise.

     
  4. In post #36, Irishman posted Leviticus 27:30, stating that the tithe is the Lord’s.  Funny, he conveniently left out verse 34 that states that the tithe was for the children of Israel.  He stated that the tithe was not money at that time because money was scarce for the average person.  Yet, Deuteronomy 14:22-29 easily proves he is wrong.  Scripture would not say the tithe could be sold for money if money was scarce for the average person.  The facts are, money was readily available for any tither should he need it.  Even the tither, the farmer had money, for he was given the option of buying the tithe back from the Levite according to Leviticus 27:31.  That fact alone proves than money was not scarce for the average person.
     
  5. In post #36, Irishman also quoted Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42.  Both of these verses have our Lord saying that tithing was to be done.  But He was not telling the Church to tithe.  He was telling the scribes and Pharisees… “Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees… these ought YE to have done.”  And why did He tell them to tithe?  Because it was an eternal moral principle?  NO!  He told them to tithe because that is what the Law they were commanded to obey required them to do.
     
  6. In post #36, Irishman posted 2 Corinthians 9:6-10 as well.  Not one of those verses have anything to do with tithing. 

     
  7. In post #51, OLD fashioned preacher posted 1 Timothy 5:4,16.  Neither of these verses prove a monetary tithe.  1 Timothy 5:8 & 2 Thessalonians 3:10 were also referenced.  Neither of these say anything about tithing.
     
  8. In post #55, Calvary came in with references to Acts 11, 2 Corinthians 9:1 and 1 Corinthians 16.  Neither of these passages say anything about a tithe.
     
  9. In post #59, Calvary quoted 1 Corinthians 16, which was a collection for the saints in Jerusalem.  Had absolutely nothing to do with a monetary tithe.
  10.   In post #61, Salyan posted Colossians 4:6, Matthew 7:1-5, Colossians 3:12, & Ephesians 4:32.  Nothing whatsoever about tithing in those verses.
     

In post #71, NoNicolatians posted reference to several verses, pointing out that tithing was Old Testament Law and not for us.

Sorry Irishman, but the only verse you used that had anything to do with the tithe was Leviticus 27:30.  And verse 34 clearly tells us that that tithe was for the children of Israel. 

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Preacher: Abraham tithed to Melchizedek.  Melchizedek is a type of Christ, and Christ is a priest after the order of Melchizedek.  Therefore, we should tithe to Christ.  Gen. 14 w/ Psalm 110 and Heb. 7

 

God's Word:  in agreement.

 

Remember - it is a PRINCIPLE, not a DEMAND....and when a Christian uses his liberty in Christ as an excuse to NOT GIVE, then that Christian will not grow in grace enough to serve the Lord or to handle the problems that will inevitably come his way.  (Don't forget II Cor. 9:8!!!)

 

In Christ,

Edited by Steve Schwenke

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You forgot one, Gary ...

Preacher: (to the new Christian) 10% is where you should start.
God's Word: every man, as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give.

As can be seen, the preacher in this scenario begins deceiving the new Christian immediately.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Preacher: Abraham tithed to Melchizedek.  Melchizedek is a type of Christ, and Christ is a priest after the order of Melchizedek.  Therefore, we should tithe to Christ.  Gen. 14 w/ Psalm 110 and Heb. 7

God's Word:  in agreement.

 

Abram directly gave a tenth to Melchizedek.  Can you directly give a tenth to Christ?  Do the scriptures tell us exactly who Christ has given permission to receive His tithe?

 

Abram's tithe was not even carried forward into the law; therefore, it would appear from the scriptures, that God didn't even want a tenth of the spoils to begin with (Numbers 31).

 

According to Hebrews 7:5,12,18, the tithe was disannulled.

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Preacher: Abraham tithed to Melchizedek.  Melchizedek is a type of Christ, and Christ is a priest after the order of Melchizedek.  Therefore, we should tithe to Christ.  Gen. 14 w/ Psalm 110 and Heb. 7

God's Word:  in agreement.

 

Abram tithed to Melchizedek and kept NOTHING for himself.  Therefore, we should keep nothing for ourselves.

 

Is that the logic you use when reading the scriptures?

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You forgot one, Gary ...
Preacher: (to the new Christian) 10% is where you should start.
God's Word: every man, as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give. (notice God didn't say "every man except new believers, as they purpose in their hearts so let him give)

Preacher: A tithe is meant - on purpose - to test our faith and resolve
God's Word: for by grace are ye saved through faith, not of works...
As can be seen, the preacher in this scenario begins deceiving the new Christian immediately and bases their salvation on whether they tithe or not.


Some preachers have no fear of God whatsoever.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Rather than request him to close his thread, Jerry.  I say those who do not want to participate in it just don't come in. 

Why should those with the truth be squelched because others disagree with them?  Besides, we have a new poster who is very learned in the Scriptures concerning God's Holy tithe.  Shouldn't he be allowed to participate?

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  1.  In post #13, iamchief posted the following verses:

    Acts 6:2   Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. 
    Acts 6:3   Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. 
    Acts 6:4   But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.

    Nothing in that passage, nor in that chapter, nor in the entire book of the Acts of the Apostles is said of tithes whatsoever.

    * while iamchief did mention “double honour”, he did not give the Church reference.  But even that does not say double honour means tithes.  One has to add tithes there, for it is not there.
  2. In post #19, NoNicolatians posted 2 Corinthians 9:7, which tells how we are to base our giving… as we choose in our own hearts to give.
     
  3. In post #25, LindaR posted 2 Corinthians 8:12, which does not say anything of tithes, but giving according to what one has and not according to what one does not have. 

    *this verse shoots down the false doctrine of Faith Promise.

     
  4. In post #36, Irishman posted Leviticus 27:30, stating that the tithe is the Lord’s.  Funny, he conveniently left out verse 34 that states that the tithe was for the children of Israel.  He stated that the tithe was not money at that time because money was scarce for the average person.  Yet, Deuteronomy 14:22-29 easily proves he is wrong.  Scripture would not say the tithe could be sold for money if money was scarce for the average person.  The facts are, money was readily available for any tither should he need it.  Even the tither, the farmer had money, for he was given the option of buying the tithe back from the Levite according to Leviticus 27:31.  That fact alone proves than money was not scarce for the average person.
     
  5. In post #36, Irishman also quoted Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42.  Both of these verses have our Lord saying that tithing was to be done.  But He was not telling the Church to tithe.  He was telling the scribes and Pharisees… “Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees… these ought YE to have done.”  And why did He tell them to tithe?  Because it was an eternal moral principle?  NO!  He told them to tithe because that is what the Law they were commanded to obey required them to do.
     
  6. In post #36, Irishman posted 2 Corinthians 9:6-10 as well.  Not one of those verses have anything to do with tithing. 

     
  7. In post #51, OLD fashioned preacher posted 1 Timothy 5:4,16.  Neither of these verses prove a monetary tithe.  1 Timothy 5:8 & 2 Thessalonians 3:10 were also referenced.  Neither of these say anything about tithing.
     
  8. In post #55, Calvary came in with references to Acts 11, 2 Corinthians 9:1 and 1 Corinthians 16.  Neither of these passages say anything about a tithe.
     
  9. In post #59, Calvary quoted 1 Corinthians 16, which was a collection for the saints in Jerusalem.  Had absolutely nothing to do with a monetary tithe.
  10.   In post #61, Salyan posted Colossians 4:6, Matthew 7:1-5, Colossians 3:12, & Ephesians 4:32.  Nothing whatsoever about tithing in those verses.
     

In post #71, NoNicolatians posted reference to several verses, pointing out that tithing was Old Testament Law and not for us.

Sorry Irishman, but the only verse you used that had anything to do with the tithe was Leviticus 27:30.  And verse 34 clearly tells us that that tithe was for the children of Israel. 

 

Whoa up fella ---- Show me where and when I said such anything about a tithe anywhere in this thread??????????????????????????????

 

I know you can read better than that (and if your text to speech program missed it due to the quotes and highlighted phrases within it then ask your wife to fill them in to compensate for software shortcomings). In an earlier post (somewhere around 15 or 17) I objected to the idea that geographical proximity (or lack thereof) alleviated personal responsibility to widows within the family (not just offspring either as indicated in Scripture by the listing of children and nephews).

 

Back up and re-read!!!!!!!!!!!

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What did the apostles have to say?

 

Acts 15:5-29
5   But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6   And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7   And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8   And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9   And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10   Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11   But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12   Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13   And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14   Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15   And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16   After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17   That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18   Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19   Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20   But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21   For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22   Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23   And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24   Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25   It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26   Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27   We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28   For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29   That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
 
The apostles agreed that the church wasn't under the bondage of the law whatsoever...and they didn't include tithing as one of the things the church should observe in verses 20 and 29.
 
Again, if you purpose in your heart to give a tenth of your income...that's wonderful.  Just know that it's not required.  However, many pastors do teach that it's a requirement for the church. 

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Perhaps it is you who is guilty of pride.  

Where are these verses that prove me wrong, swathdiver? 

 

Then, you can apologize to me for the false accusations.

 

Point 1:  I have no dog in this fight, so no, it's not my pride.  You know, several months ago you almost convinced me, but your rotten attitude kept me from considering anything else you had to say.  I should know because around these here parts, I'm the know it all with the mean spirit and rotten attitude.

 

Point 2:  There are no verses, none, no not one.  Even if there were, you wouldn't see them.

 

Point 3:  No false accusations, you've been rude and owe several folks here an apology.  You even called them names and then projected what you were doing to one fellow Christian onto another.  Time for some humble pie, it's wrong and you know it.

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Preacher:  I don't DEMAND them to tithe.  I tell them they should start their giving at 10%

Webster's 1828 Dictionary:  Webster's 1828 Dictionary [K-Z]
should

SHOULD. shood. The preterit of shall, but now used as an auxiliary verb, either in the past time or conditional present. "He should have paid the debt at the time the note became due." Should here denotes past time. "I should ride to town this day if the weather would permit." Here should expresses present or future time conditionally. In the second and third persons, it denotes obligation or duty, as in the first example above.

1. I should go. When should in this person is uttered without emphasis, it declares simply that an event would take place, on some condition or under circumstances.

But when expressed with emphasis, should in this person denotes obligation, duty or determination.

2. Thou shouldst go.

Obligation? Duty?  Sounds like a demand to me.  Again, the preacher is deceiving.  Stating over and over that he does not demand something when in reality he is.

 

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Whoa up fella ---- Show me where and when I said such anything about a tithe anywhere in this thread??????????????????????????????

 

I know you can read better than that (and if your text to speech program missed it due to the quotes and highlighted phrases within it then ask your wife to fill them in to compensate for software shortcomings). In an earlier post (somewhere around 15 or 17) I objected to the idea that geographical proximity (or lack thereof) alleviated personal responsibility to widows within the family (not just offspring either as indicated in Scripture by the listing of children and nephews).

 

Back up and re-read!!!!!!!!!!!

Did I say you said that they were in reference to a tithe?  NO, I didn't.  Back up and re-read.

I merely said you referenced those verses.  I did not say you claimed they were in reference to tithing.

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What did the apostles have to say?

 

Acts 15:5-29
5   But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6   And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7   And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8   And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9   And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10   Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11   But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12   Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13   And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14   Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15   And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16   After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17   That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18   Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19   Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20   But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21   For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22   Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23   And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24   Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25   It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26   Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27   We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28   For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29   That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
 
The apostles agreed that the church wasn't under the bondage of the law whatsoever...and they didn't include tithing as one of the things the church should observe in verses 20 and 29.
 
Again, if you purpose in your heart to give a tenth of your income...that's wonderful.  Just know that it's not required.  However, many pastors do teach that it's a requirement for the church. 

 

Right.  They teach the members to tithe when they tell them they should give 10% of their money (as one poster says he tells new converts)  Many also subtly tell the members to tithe by stating that it is time to receive "tithes and offerings."  LOL

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Did I say you said that they were in reference to a tithe?  NO, I didn't.  Back up and re-read.

I merely said you referenced those verses.  I did not say you claimed they were in reference to tithing.

Set in the list the way you did and with the statements that they don't teach or reference tithing gives the impression that they were used as some kind of argument to that effect.

 

It's commonly referred to as using a statement out of context

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Point 1:  I have no dog in this fight, so no, it's not my pride.  You know, several months ago you almost convinced me, but your rotten attitude kept me from considering anything else you had to say.  I should know because around these here parts, I'm the know it all with the mean spirit and rotten attitude.

 

Point 2:  There are no verses, none, no not one.  Even if there were, you wouldn't see them.

 

Point 3:  No false accusations, you've been rude and owe several folks here an apology.  You even called them names and then projected what you were doing to one fellow Christian onto another.  Time for some humble pie, it's wrong and you know it.

If you "have no dog in this fight," you sure have a funny way of showing it.

How have I been rude?  By presenting truth?  When Stephen called those he was preaching to stiff-necked and perverse, why didn't Paul speak up and say that Stephen owed everyone an apology?  Oh, that's right... because he was telling the truth.

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Preacher:  I don't DEMAND them to tithe.  I tell them they should start their giving at 10%

 

Why do you tell them they should start their giving at 10% when the scriptures say they should give according to what God has put in their heart?  Are you trying to take it out of God's hands?

 

A big problem with tithe teachers is that they seem to lack faith that God will take care of His church.  They try to take it out of God's hands and teach it the way they want instead of the way God wants.

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Set in the list the way you did and with the statements that they don't teach or reference tithing gives the impression that they were used as some kind of argument to that effect.

 

It's commonly referred to as using a statement out of context

Preacher, I am sorry if you misread it.  But my intention was not to misquote you.  My intention in posting all the references was to show Irishman (who claimed Scripture was given to refute my stance on tithing) that no Scripture was given by anyone that refuted my stance.

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Why do you tell them they should start their giving at 10% when the scriptures say they should give according to what God has put in their heart?  Are you trying to take it out of God's hands?

 

A big problem with tithe teachers is that they seem to lack faith that God will take care of His church.  They try to take it out of God's hands and teach it the way they want instead of the way God wants.

That is so right, Gary!  And that was my point.  The preacher claims he does not DEMAND the tithe, but subtly he does DEMAND it.

Thank you for your insight!

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Origin and Definition of Tithing (Excerpts) by Russell E. Kelly, PHD

 

Tithing Was Not an Eternal Moral Principle

 

A tradition is not automatically an eternal moral principle merely because is it very old, very common and very widespread. The fact that tithing was common in much pagan worship before the Bible was written does not make it a moral principle. Idolatry, worship of astrological bodies, child sacrifice, temple prostitution, witchcraft and necromancy are equally very old, very common and very widespread in pagan cultures. The practice of giving is found in natural law, but an exact percentage is not.

 

Tithing Was Not a Minimum Required from All Old Covenant Israelites

 

Only those Israelites who earned a livelihood from farming and herding inside Israel were required to tithe under the Mosaic Law. Their increase came from God’s hand. Those whose increase came from their own crafts and skills were not required to tithe products and money. The poor and needy who did not tithe and received from the tithe gave freewill offerings.

 

Tithes Were Not the Same as First-fruits

 

The first-fruit was a very small amount of the first crop harvest and the first-born was the first offspring of animals. The first-fruit was small enough to fit into a hand-held basket (Deuteronomy  26:1-4, 10; Leviticus 23:17; Numbers 18:13-17;         2 Chronicles 31:5). First-fruit and first-born offerings went directly to the Temple and were required to be totally consumed by ministering priests only inside the Temple (Nehemiah 10:35-37a; Exodus 23:19; 34:26; Deuteronomy 18:4).

 

Tithes Were Not from Money

 

One argument to support non-food tithing is that money was not universally available and barter from food must have been used for most transactions.  This argument is not biblical. Genesis alone contains “money” in 32 texts and the word occurs 44 times before the tithe is first mentioned in Leviticus 27. The word shekel also appears often from Genesis to Deuteronomy.

 

In fact many centuries before Israel entered Canaan and began tithing food from God’s Holy Land money was an essential everyday item. For example money in the form of silver shekels paid for slaves (Genesis 17:12+); land (Genesis 23:9+); freedom (Exodus 23:11); court fines (Exodus 21 all; 22 all); sanctuary dues (Exodus 30:12+); vows (Leviticus 27:3-7); poll taxes (Numbers 3:47+), wine and strong drinks (Deuteronomy 14:26) and marriage dowries (Deuteronomy 22:29).

 

According to Genesis 47:15-17 food was only used for barter after money had been spent. Banking and usury laws exist in God’s Word in Leviticus even before tithing. Therefore the argument that money was not prevalent enough for everyday use is false. Yet the tithe contents never include money from non-food products and trades.

Edited by LindaR

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Can anyone show me ANY scriptures where ANYONE is commanded or even encouraged to give one penny to a corporation doing business as a church?

 

The OT tithe was given to the Levites.  The Levites were servants to the priests - like today's ushers, musicians, singers, janitor, secretary, etc.  Then those who received the tithe gave a tenth from that tithe to the priest.  Is that the way tithing is taught today?

 

I am convinced, from my own observance, that few pastors today are capable or qualified to teach NT giving principles and good financial stewardship.  If they knew how to teach the NT giving principles properly, I am convinced giving would INCREASE far above what they are getting teaching the false tithing doctrine invented by church leaders around 1870.

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Malachi 3:9 (KJV)  Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

THIS WHOLE NATION. The curse was not on the individual. The blessing was not for the individual. It was a NATION thing, not an individual thing.

Unfortunately, the teaching has been wrong in the churches for over 100 years now and that makes it hard for those who were taught wrong to see the truth."

Notice that when the nation was cursed, even the righteous were taken away with the punishment for the curse. That is why the ancient prophets like Ezekiel and Daniel prophesied DURING THE CAPTIVITY. Jeremiah prophesied of the captivity BEFORE it happened, and was taken away WHEN IT HAPPENED. This should be so easy to see! The blessing and the curse of the law was COLLECTIVE, AS A NATION, not individual.

 

So why does the pastor teach Malachi 3 as though each individual may be blessed or cursed according to whether or not they tithe?

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Malachi 3:9 (KJV)  Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

THIS WHOLE NATION. The curse was not on the individual. The blessing was not for the individual. It was a NATION thing, not an individual thing.

Unfortunately, the teaching has been wrong in the churches for over 100 years now and that makes it hard for those who were taught wrong to see the truth."

Notice that when the nation was cursed, even the righteous were taken away with the punishment for the curse. That is why the ancient prophets like Ezekiel and Daniel prophesied DURING THE CAPTIVITY. Jeremiah prophesied of the captivity BEFORE it happened, and was taken away WHEN IT HAPPENED. This should be so easy to see! The blessing and the curse of the law was COLLECTIVE, AS A NATION, not individual.

 

So why does the pastor teach Malachi 3 as though each individual may be blessed or cursed according to whether or not they tithe?

Exactly!  Funny thing, we hear people giving testimonies how God blessed them for tithing.  If God cursed the whole Nation of Israel because few were not tithing, wouldn't it stand to reason that that tither today should be cursed because I, and many others do not tithe? 

After all, God said in Malachi 3:6 that He changes not.

Again, thank you Gary, for your insight!  You bring much meat to the table.

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