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The Glory Land

Tithe With Out A Cheerful Heart?

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First, to make it clear, I believe anyone who attends church services should pay their fair share of the bills if they are financially able, and if they are financially able, they should pay even more to compensate for those who cannot afford to pay their fair share.

 

Do donations/contributions to a local church meet the definition of a gift?  Is that really considered “giving?”  Let’s start with the definition of a gift:

From Webster’s Dictionary:
Something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned.

From The American Heritage Dictionary
Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation.

1 Corinthians 9:13-14 (NIV)
13Don’t you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and
those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar?
14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should
receive their living from the gospel.

In other words, the preacher deserves to be paid for his services.  Although the payment is voluntary on the part of the payer, when you “give” or donate to the church, you are essentially paying for a service as well as helping to pay for the facilities that you, yourself, are benefiting from.  You benefit from the seating, air conditioning, program, etc.  That doesn’t even meet the definition of a true gift; therefore, should not really be considered giving at all.

Unfortunately, most church goers limit their “giving” to the local church and never really give a true gift to where it is needed.

Matthew 25:42-45 (NIV)
42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me
nothing to drink,
43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe
me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or
needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of
these, you did not do for me.’

In Matthew 25:42-45 Jesus tells us how to give to Him. We are giving to The Lord when
we feed the hungry, give to the poor, etc. Nowhere in the scriptures does God say that
when you give to the “Christian Church” you are giving to Him.

Because of this false teaching in today’s church, most church goers give little or nothing to the Lord.  They are paying for services and material things they benefit from.  Therefore, they aren’t even “giving” to begin with.  They are paying.
 

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Question:  Is preaching within 4 walls to basically the same audience week after week, month after month, year after year, really doing the Lord's work?  Don't the scriptures teach that the elders should teach the young just long enough to where they can go out and spread the gospel?

Edited by GaryArnold

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Question:  Is preaching within 4 walls to basically the same audience week after week, month after month, year after year, really doing the Lord's work?  Don't the scriptures teach that the elders should teach the young just long enough to where they can go out and spread the gospel?

A big problem in the majority of "Churches" today is their failure to equip the saints as the Scripture instructs them to do. 

For this reason, there are many who sit in the pews for decades and know nothing of what it means to serve.

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GaryArnold,

 

From the Online Baptist Rules:

 

           3) Feel free to quote the Bible, if you do we ask that you use the KJV. This is done to avoid confusion.

The Administrators and Moderators of this site believe that the KJV is Gods preserved Word for the English speaking people, and we ask that you respect that and use the KJV when quoting scripture.

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When Stephen called those he was preaching to stiff-necked and perverse, why didn't Paul speak up and say that Stephen owed everyone an apology?  

 

Stephen was speaking to infidels.  You're among the faithful here.   :th_wellduh:

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Stephen was speaking to infidels.  You're among the faithful here.   :th_wellduh:

Faithful to whom?

Since the monetary tithe is nowhere found in Scripture, yet tithe teachers and preachers insist one is required to tithe their money, taking out of context Scriptures that have to do with the agricultural tithe or to a specific peoples, to whom are the faithful being faithful to?

If the monetary tithe is not taught by the Bible, but rather by man, it appears to be that one is being faithful to the man who teaches the monetary tithe when he tithes his money... not being faithful to God.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

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  1.  In post #13, iamchief posted the following verses:

    Acts 6:2   Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. 
    Acts 6:3   Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. 
    Acts 6:4   But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.

    Nothing in that passage, nor in that chapter, nor in the entire book of the Acts of the Apostles is said of tithes whatsoever.

    * while iamchief did mention “double honour”, he did not give the Church reference.  But even that does not say double honour means tithes.  One has to add tithes there, for it is not there.
  2. In post #19, NoNicolatians posted 2 Corinthians 9:7, which tells how we are to base our giving… as we choose in our own hearts to give.
     
  3. In post #25, LindaR posted 2 Corinthians 8:12, which does not say anything of tithes, but giving according to what one has and not according to what one does not have. 

    *this verse shoots down the false doctrine of Faith Promise.

     
  4. In post #36, Irishman posted Leviticus 27:30, stating that the tithe is the Lord’s.  Funny, he conveniently left out verse 34 that states that the tithe was for the children of Israel.  He stated that the tithe was not money at that time because money was scarce for the average person.  Yet, Deuteronomy 14:22-29 easily proves he is wrong.  Scripture would not say the tithe could be sold for money if money was scarce for the average person.  The facts are, money was readily available for any tither should he need it.  Even the tither, the farmer had money, for he was given the option of buying the tithe back from the Levite according to Leviticus 27:31.  That fact alone proves than money was not scarce for the average person.
     
  5. In post #36, Irishman also quoted Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42.  Both of these verses have our Lord saying that tithing was to be done.  But He was not telling the Church to tithe.  He was telling the scribes and Pharisees… “Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees… these ought YE to have done.”  And why did He tell them to tithe?  Because it was an eternal moral principle?  NO!  He told them to tithe because that is what the Law they were commanded to obey required them to do.
     
  6. In post #36, Irishman posted 2 Corinthians 9:6-10 as well.  Not one of those verses have anything to do with tithing. 

     
  7. In post #51, OLD fashioned preacher posted 1 Timothy 5:4,16.  Neither of these verses prove a monetary tithe.  1 Timothy 5:8 & 2 Thessalonians 3:10 were also referenced.  Neither of these say anything about tithing.
     
  8. In post #55, Calvary came in with references to Acts 11, 2 Corinthians 9:1 and 1 Corinthians 16.  Neither of these passages say anything about a tithe.
     
  9. In post #59, Calvary quoted 1 Corinthians 16, which was a collection for the saints in Jerusalem.  Had absolutely nothing to do with a monetary tithe.
  10.   In post #61, Salyan posted Colossians 4:6, Matthew 7:1-5, Colossians 3:12, & Ephesians 4:32.  Nothing whatsoever about tithing in those verses.
     

In post #71, NoNicolatians posted reference to several verses, pointing out that tithing was Old Testament Law and not for us.

Sorry Irishman, but the only verse you used that had anything to do with the tithe was Leviticus 27:30.  And verse 34 clearly tells us that that tithe was for the children of Israel. 

 

Calvary wasn´t defending any tithe Standing, why you put my posts in a context that suggests otherwise is deceitful. You are using my posts to bolster your straw man argument. My post by its context clearly showed only a special offering being made to the saints in Jerusalem. Nothing more.

 

You are dishonest to include my posts and then state they show nothing of a tithe., I never was speaking to the tithe, for or against.

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  1.  In post #13, iamchief posted the following verses:

    Acts 6:2   Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. 
    Acts 6:3   Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. 
    Acts 6:4   But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.

    Nothing in that passage, nor in that chapter, nor in the entire book of the Acts of the Apostles is said of tithes whatsoever.

    * while iamchief did mention “double honour”, he did not give the Church reference.  But even that does not say double honour means tithes.  One has to add tithes there, for it is not there.
  2. In post #19, NoNicolatians posted 2 Corinthians 9:7, which tells how we are to base our giving… as we choose in our own hearts to give.
     
  3. In post #25, LindaR posted 2 Corinthians 8:12, which does not say anything of tithes, but giving according to what one has and not according to what one does not have. 

    *this verse shoots down the false doctrine of Faith Promise.

     
  4. In post #36, Irishman posted Leviticus 27:30, stating that the tithe is the Lord’s.  Funny, he conveniently left out verse 34 that states that the tithe was for the children of Israel.  He stated that the tithe was not money at that time because money was scarce for the average person.  Yet, Deuteronomy 14:22-29 easily proves he is wrong.  Scripture would not say the tithe could be sold for money if money was scarce for the average person.  The facts are, money was readily available for any tither should he need it.  Even the tither, the farmer had money, for he was given the option of buying the tithe back from the Levite according to Leviticus 27:31.  That fact alone proves than money was not scarce for the average person.
     
  5. In post #36, Irishman also quoted Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42.  Both of these verses have our Lord saying that tithing was to be done.  But He was not telling the Church to tithe.  He was telling the scribes and Pharisees… “Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees… these ought YE to have done.”  And why did He tell them to tithe?  Because it was an eternal moral principle?  NO!  He told them to tithe because that is what the Law they were commanded to obey required them to do.
     
  6. In post #36, Irishman posted 2 Corinthians 9:6-10 as well.  Not one of those verses have anything to do with tithing. 

     
  7. In post #51, OLD fashioned preacher posted 1 Timothy 5:4,16.  Neither of these verses prove a monetary tithe.  1 Timothy 5:8 & 2 Thessalonians 3:10 were also referenced.  Neither of these say anything about tithing.
     
  8. In post #55, Calvary came in with references to Acts 11, 2 Corinthians 9:1 and 1 Corinthians 16.  Neither of these passages say anything about a tithe.
     
  9. In post #59, Calvary quoted 1 Corinthians 16, which was a collection for the saints in Jerusalem.  Had absolutely nothing to do with a monetary tithe.
  10.   In post #61, Salyan posted Colossians 4:6, Matthew 7:1-5, Colossians 3:12, & Ephesians 4:32.  Nothing whatsoever about tithing in those verses.
     

In post #71, NoNicolatians posted reference to several verses, pointing out that tithing was Old Testament Law and not for us.

Sorry Irishman, but the only verse you used that had anything to do with the tithe was Leviticus 27:30.  And verse 34 clearly tells us that that tithe was for the children of Israel. 

 

 

 

Calvary wasn´t defending any tithe Standing, why you put my posts in a context that suggests otherwise is deceitful. You are using my posts to bolster your straw man argument. My post by its context clearly showed only a special offering being made to the saints in Jerusalem. Nothing more.

 

You are dishonest to include my posts and then state they show nothing of a tithe., I never was speaking to the tithe, for or against.

 

Yeah, ditto.

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Faithful to whom?

Since the monetary tithe is nowhere found in Scripture, yet tithe teachers and preachers insist one is required to tithe their money, taking out of context Scriptures that have to do with the agricultural tithe or to a specific peoples, to whom are the faithful being faithful to?

 

I guess we can you names then because of your lack of fidelity to Christ.  You fail to hold membership in one of his New Testament Churches.  He loved the church so much that he died for it and yet you do not attend (insert name calling here).  Don't bother trying to justify your position by twisting the bible into a pretzel, I won't be around to read it.

 

This conversation with you went right into the gutter, for that I'm sorry and am bowing out of it, it's no longer edifying.

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You fail to hold membership in one of his New Testament Churches.

 

Please tell me, just how many New Testament Churches does God have?  I thought the scriptures teach there is ONE Church, and all born-again believers are a member.

 

What you are doing is holding membership in a corporation doing business as a church.  Similar to holding membership in a club. 

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Calvary wasn´t defending any tithe Standing, why you put my posts in a context that suggests otherwise is deceitful. You are using my posts to bolster your straw man argument. My post by its context clearly showed only a special offering being made to the saints in Jerusalem. Nothing more.

 

You are dishonest to include my posts and then state they show nothing of a tithe., I never was speaking to the tithe, for or against.

Re-read my post.  I did not say you said those verses had anything to do with tithing. 

You, like OFP, jumped the gun. 

I forgive you.

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Please tell me, just how many New Testament Churches does God have?  I thought the scriptures teach there is ONE Church, and all born-again believers are a member.

 

What you are doing is holding membership in a corporation doing business as a church.  Similar to holding membership in a club. 

You just assumed the church he attends is incorporated -- I don't know where he goes so I don't know either. But, in case you aren't aware of this, not all local assemblies are incorporated.

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I guess we can you names then because of your lack of fidelity to Christ.  You fail to hold membership in one of his New Testament Churches.  He loved the church so much that he died for it and yet you do not attend (insert name calling here).  Don't bother trying to justify your position by twisting the bible into a pretzel, I won't be around to read it.

 

This conversation with you went right into the gutter, for that I'm sorry and am bowing out of it, it's no longer edifying.

Who says I am not a member of Christ's New Testament Church?

I certainly never said that.

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Please tell me, just how many New Testament Churches does God have?  I thought the scriptures teach there is ONE Church, and all born-again believers are a member.

 

What you are doing is holding membership in a corporation doing business as a church.  Similar to holding membership in a club. 

Brother Gary,
They are so wanting to be right that they are willing to falsely accuse those who preach and teach what the Bible says. 

Funny, those who stoned Stephen did the same thing. 

Oh well... nothing new under the sun.

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Re-read my post.  I did not say you said those verses had anything to do with tithing. 

You, like OFP, jumped the gun. 

I forgive you.

 

The only one you are fooling by responses like this is yourself. 

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I have been following this topic and must say there is much controversy and stone throwing.  What I don't understand, 'Standing Firm In Christ', is why you are taking much of this personally.  The members here are clearly revealing through scripture what their belief's - opinions are, while you strike back at them if it happens to not agree with you.  In the end it is all between the individual and GOD.  We will all stand before HIM and give account.  Why is this a big deal to you?  I don't believe the majority of the members here, are here to do needless battle.  Let's enjoy the fellowship with one another.....there's a time and a place to stand firmly and somehow I don't think this is it?? Last time I checked, GOD was still in control.

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You just assumed the church he attends is incorporated -- I don't know where he goes so I don't know either. But, in case you aren't aware of this, not all local assemblies are incorporated.

 

Whether it's incorporated or not, the point is the same.  As soon as a "local church" requires or offers membership, it puts it out of the category of being like a club.  This whole "church membership" thing is man made.  Just like the tithing doctrine taught in so many churches today.  Just a man-made doctrine as can easily be found when researching the history of tithing money in the Christian Church.

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Please tell me, just how many New Testament Churches does God have?  I thought the scriptures teach there is ONE Church, and all born-again believers are a member.

 

What you are doing is holding membership in a corporation doing business as a church.  Similar to holding membership in a club. 

There is one body (the body of Christ) and many members (local assemblies consisting of born again believers...Jew and Gentile).  The "one baptism" is Spirit baptism, not water baptism.

 

Ephesians 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

Romans 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

 

1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

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The members here are clearly revealing through scripture what their belief's - opinions are, while you strike back at them if it happens to not agree with you.

 

I see a lot of beliefs and opinions expressed here, but absolutely NO scripture to back up tithing money, or even tithing from one's income.  Opinions and/or beliefs mean nothing if there is no scripture to back them up.

 

Unfortunately, too many believe what man teaches rather than what the scriptures teach.

 

The tithing scriptures are clear.  They aren't confusing.  They aren't a mystery.  God is not the author of confusion.  If God wanted us to tithe from our income, God would have given instructions as to how to do it, and where to take it.  Gross income or net income?  Inheritances?  (In the Old Testament, the eleven tribes that inherited the promised land did NOT tithe the land they inherited, but the Levites were required to tithe from their inheritance.  God spells it out.)  Gifts?  Non-monetary gifts?  In order to teach that tithing is valid on money and/or income, man has to make up the rules.  Do you really think that God would leave it up to man to determine His tithe? 

Edited by GaryArnold

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Whether it's incorporated or not, the point is the same.  As soon as a "local church" requires or offers membership, it puts it out of the category of being like a club.  This whole "church membership" thing is man made.  Just like the tithing doctrine taught in so many churches today.  Just a man-made doctrine as can easily be found when researching the history of tithing money in the Christian Church.

 

This is a good subject for discussion, but will take us waaaay off topic. GaryArnold, if you (or anyone else) would like to discuss this point, could you please start a new thread?  Hopefully that will keep this one from getting any more conglomerated than it already is. :wink Thanks.

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I have been following this topic and must say there is much controversy and stone throwing.  What I don't understand, 'Standing Firm In Christ', is why you are taking much of this personally.  The members here are clearly revealing through scripture what their belief's - opinions are, while you strike back at them if it happens to not agree with you.  In the end it is all between the individual and GOD.  We will all stand before HIM and give account.  Why is this a big deal to you?  I don't believe the majority of the members here, are here to do needless battle.  Let's enjoy the fellowship with one another.....there's a time and a place to stand firmly and somehow I don't think this is it?? Last time I checked, GOD was still in control.

Jesuspaiditall4all,

There have only been three verses used in this thread by others concerning tithing.  Actually, it was not others, but rather one member.
Those verses used are Leviticus 27:30, Matthew 23:23 & Luke 11:42.  Those are the only verses that have been used in this thread that support tithing. 

And the tithing they support is not that monetary tithe that is taught in pulpits today.  They support the tithe found within the Mosaic Law.. tithe of agricultural produce and livestock.

It appears though you may have been following the topic, you have not actually been paying close attention to the posts.

And just exactly why is it wrong to stand firm on what the Scripture teaches, prey tell?
One should never desert the Truth written in Scripture and embrace error.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Whether it's incorporated or not, the point is the same.  As soon as a "local church" requires or offers membership, it puts it out of the category of being like a club.  This whole "church membership" thing is man made.  Just like the tithing doctrine taught in so many churches today.  Just a man-made doctrine as can easily be found when researching the history of tithing money in the Christian Church.

Oh please....

 

And just where exactly is "finance minister" in the Bible?   If you are going to go that route, then at least be consistent.

PS - I believe church membership IS in the Bible, but Prov. 25:2 comes into play here.  Only a lazy student looks for the easy "silver bullet" verse to prove or disprove their pet teachings.

 

Can we close this thread now???

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