Calvinism on the March

[Seth Doty]

Does God have a plan?

Pelagianism: God does not have a plan.

Arminianism, or semi Pelagianism. God has a plan, but man can over rule that plan. This is most plainly shown in the most prominent sub group, Dispensationalism, or Scofieldism which teaches that God's plan was for Jesus to set up a Jewish kingdom which was offered to the Jews but they rejected it , so God deferred the plan and put the church in place in the meantime. The church, therefore was not part of the plan, and so is nowhere mentioned in the Old Testament. This false teaching ignores some obvious biblical facts. Jesus never offered the kingdom to the Jews, in fact, when they tried to make him king, he rejected it. He said "My kingdom is not of this world." He also said. "The Kingdom of God is among you. " and "I will build my Church."

Calvinism. I use this misnomer as it seems a name you like to use. God has a plan and that plan will be carried out.

It follows that Dispensationalism is utterly opposed to Calvinism, although I go know some dear brothers who claim both.

As a dispensationalist this is how I would describe Gods plan/plans. First off God has a perfect will/plan of what would be the very best way. This is the way things would be if everyone did exactly what God told them to do. At any point man has been given the free will to follow that perfect will of God or do something else. In that sense man can "overrule" Gods best plan. On the other hand God being omniscient is always an infinite number of steps ahead of man and therefore man can never surprise God and do something God hadn't already planned for. In that sense man cannot change Gods plans because God knows what the free will choice of man will be before man makes it. For example, the fall of man. It was Gods "best" plan that man obey him and thus never sin and fall. However God being omniscient knew that man would choose to sin and therefore God had already planned for that from the foundation of the world. The fact that God is omniscient and not bound by time in no way means mans choice is not free though.

In the case of Israel they could have accepted him as the messiah, it was a genuine offer(Matthew 12:7 etc.), but of course God being a infinite number of steps ahead of them knew they would choose to reject him which is why it was prophesied throughout the OT.

[Covenanter]

Matthew 11:14, "And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."

So, because the Jews didn't receive it, John wasn't Elijah. Many thousands were baptised by John, & believed Jesus.
You forget - as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias,


Acts 1:6, "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

Jesus has spent 40 days speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God so it seems he had omitted teaching them about restore again the kingdom to Israel. He repeated the "great commission." When in their teaching after the Holy Spirit was poured out, restoring again the kingdom to Israel was not a feature of their message. Jesus is King of kings.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Covenanter

[heartstrings]

I've encountered some that go to great extremes with their view that God sent Jesus to establish His kingdom with the Jews but since the Jews rejected Christ God came up with a "Plan B". Many put forth that God doesn't have any real control but rather He just keeps reacting to the whims of man until somehow things will finally come together to accomplish what He wants.

^{Isaiah 55:6}Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Does this verse not apply to "non-elect" persons"?
⁷Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. "Let" here means to "allow". Who is "the wicked"? EVERYONE IS. What does it say then? It's an invitation to ALLOW THE wicked (that covers anybody and everybody) to forsake his way and his thoughts and return to the Lord...Not IF He is near but WHILE He is near. That tells me that, Jesus is going to pass by you at some point in time, just like He did Blind Bartimaeus: better call on Him while He is near.
⁸For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
⁹For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
¹⁰For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
¹¹So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. God's "plan" is being carried out as we speak. It is not weak, it is thorough, complete, effectual and all powerful and if you want to be a part of it, you have to take what He offers in verses 6 and 7.
¹²For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
¹³Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off. His plan "shall" come to fruition and, once again, Verses 6 and 7 invite you to be a part of it.

[heartstrings]

⁶Seek ye the LORD if He enableth you, call ye upon him IF he chooseth to come near:
⁷ Irresistibly forceth the elect to forsake his way, and the unrighteous elect his thoughts: and forceth him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. Huh uh.....that ain't how it reads in my King James Bible. If you qualify as being "the wicked", best to call on Him WHILE He is near.


V1
AS THE BLIND MAN WAS SITTING THERE BY THE WAY,
HE CRIED TO JESUS, FOR MERCY THAT DAY.
JESUS, COMMANDED AND GAVE HIM HIS SIGHT.
SO HE FOLLOWED JESUS AND I'M SURE HE CRIED.

CHORUS
JESUS PASSED BY, MY WAY AND HE MADE ME WHOLE THAT DAY.
JUST A SINNER WAS I BUT THEN JESUS PASSED BY,
AND OH WHAT A CHANGE IN MY LIFE, SINCE JESUS PASSED BY.

V2
JUST LIKE THE BLIND MAN, I WANDERED ALONG,
IN DARKNESS OF SIN I WAS ALWAYS ALONE.
BUT ONE DAY I MET HIM AND HE MADE THINGS RIGHT,
AND OH WHAT A DIFFERENCE SINCE JESUS PASSED BY.

[Alimantado]

Which Spurgeon addressed long ago and that sermon has been posted here.

John,

As for Spurgeon addressing the matter long ago, I hadn't read Spurgeon's sermon before the excerpt was posted on here, but I've read the thing expounded by Loraine Boettner and I'm sure a good many more have made the same point before and after Spurgeon. Should we expect any different (Ecc 1:9)?

As for the sermon having been posted on here, so what? With God's grace, we all learn things in different ways and at different times. I tend to run ideas through with other people several times step-by-step before I start to grasp them and even on the rare occasion I think I have grasped them, I'm happy to talk them through again.

Cheers

Carl

[Alimantado]

On the one hand:

"Psalm 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee."

"Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

"Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions."

"James 1:13-16 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren."

On the other hand:

"Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps."

"Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD."

"Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will."

"Matthew 10:29-31 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows."

"1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

I think in essence your question is how can mans free will and Gods sovereignty both be true. How could God still be sovereign without also being completely responsible for everything that happens including sin? Bottom line is that we do not and probably cannot completely understand how that all works yet the scriptures very clearly teach that sin is the very opposite of Gods character and never Gods perfect will, and man does have free will and genuine choices to make. Yet though these things are true somehow God is still sovereign and in control. Those are concepts that in our minds seem at odds with each other.

"Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

The question of how free will and Gods sovereignty can both be true probably comes under the category of Gods ways being as high above our ways as the heavens are above the earth...

Thanks for taking the time to expound on this, Seth. I have heard this view given before, which essentially is that we accept it as a paradox for now. I have read other views too, that deny that any apparent paradoxes exist in the Bible or that Isaiah 55:8-9 allows for them. For example, page 31 of here, and also here (same author).

[Alimantado]

If Jesus made all the good things and the bad things, did we go wrong by choosing the bad instead of the good and worshipping/Loving the creation instead of the Creator? Was this what generated sin?

Many thanks for your response, Heartstrings. However I don't think your post really deals with mine. I can ask exactly the same question of the summary at the end of your post that I asked earlier:

"So how did we get created with 'wants' (or desires) that are against God?"

To quote your latest post, where did the desire to "choos(e) the bad instead of the good" come from?

[John81]

^{Isaiah 55:6}Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Does this verse not apply to "non-elect" persons"?
⁷Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. "Let" here means to "allow". Who is "the wicked"? EVERYONE IS. What does it say then? It's an invitation to ALLOW THE wicked (that covers anybody and everybody) to forsake his way and his thoughts and return to the Lord...Not IF He is near but WHILE He is near. That tells me that, Jesus is going to pass by you at some point in time, just like He did Blind Bartimaeus: better call on Him while He is near.
⁸For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
⁹For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
¹⁰For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
¹¹So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. God's "plan" is being carried out as we speak. It is not weak, it is thorough, complete, effectual and all powerful and if you want to be a part of it, you have to take what He offers in verses 6 and 7.
¹²For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
¹³Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off. His plan "shall" come to fruition and, once again, Verses 6 and 7 invite you to be a part of it.

I don't know what this has to do with what I posted???

[Covenanter]

I don't know what this has to do with what I posted???

Does that surprise you, John?

6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Does this verse not apply to "non-elect" persons"?
⁷Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. "Let" here means to "allow". Who is "the wicked"? EVERYONE IS. What does it say then? It's an invitation to ALLOW THE wicked (that covers anybody and everybody) to forsake his way and his thoughts and return to the Lord...Not IF He is near but WHILE He is near. That tells me that, Jesus is going to pass by you at some point in time, just like He did Blind Bartimaeus: better call on Him while He is near.

The Gospel call IS to all, the elect will respond, while the others will continue in their wicked ways.

In the context, "Let" is a command to the wicked to repent, & turn to God.

Why don't you insist that return unto the LORD implies that the call is to backsliders, who were converted are therefore the elect anyway. Of course not! The Scriptures make perfect sense.

[rancher824]

I keep punishing my 2 year old. I tell her she needs to do her laundry, and the dishes. She can"t understand how. So I punish her. At least it makes it where every one can see I can punish and am in authority. Shows my power. I feel good!!!!

(There is no truth to this post)

[Invicta]

John 5:2.
Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?
13 And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.
14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.

Of the great multitude, how many did Jesus choose to heal?

Edited November 17, 2011 by Invicta

[heartstrings]

John 5:2.
Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?
13 And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.
14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.

Of the great multitude, how many did Jesus choose to heal?

⁴For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.

What do you think supplied the supernatural power to heal them; angels, troubled water, or Almighty God?

[Brother Rick]

Holy cow guys, this has gone 238 posts now..... :snooze:

[John81]

Holy cow guys, this has gone 238 posts now.....

You do realize that's not a Christ honouring statement, right?

[Brother Rick]

You do realize that's not a Christ honouring statement, right?

Oh brother, lighten up John, it was a joke.