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Calvinism on the March


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We started with Calvinism, then meandered over to eternal security, and now we're jumping into eschotology?

When Calvinism/Preterism takes verses out of context, then one does come up with many so-called "interlinking" doctrines. Remove just one point from the TULIP of Calvinism and the entire TULIP collapses. No such thing as a one, two, three, or four point Calvinist...one either believes in all five points or he/she is not a Calvinist. The five points are all "interlinked" together.
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Many thanks for taking the time to respond in detail, Heartstrings. I don't dispute that there are lots of verses in the Bible that suggest man has free will. I wasn't questioning the existence of such verses, I was raising what I see as a logical problem. How about we proceed with your questions, because they raise the same dilemma. You ask why God would be grieved about wickedness that he planned to begin with. I agree with your point--I don't see, logically, how that could work. But if we therefore say that God didn't plan the wickedness, it seems to me that we encounter another problem.

If God didn't plan the wickedness talked about in Gen 5:5, how did it happen? You say, "man used his own God-given creative ability to devise evil and man uses his God given will to go his own way and do what he wants."

Ok, so the cause of the wickedness is our God-given free will combined with our own desire--our wants. But as our 'wants' are a part of us, they must have in turn been created. So how did we get created with 'wants' (or desires) that are against God? I can think of these options:

1. God does not want to create free agents that have the desire to be against him, but they are all he is capable of creating.

2. God does not want to create free agents that have the desire to be against him, but someone other power obliges him to do so.

3. God does not want to create free agents that have the desire to be against him, but when he creates their desires, he is not sure how they will turn out.

4. God does not want to create free agents that have the desire to be against him, but He does not create their desires at all.

5. God wants to create free agents that have the desire to be against him, and does so.

Options 1 and 2 deny God's omnipotence. Option 3 denies his omniscience. Option 5 is the reformed position and Option 4 leaves us with the question: if God didn't create our desires (or characters or constitution or whatever you want to call it) then how did they come about?

Do you agree with my reasoning up to this point?

Carl


Carl,
I have asked the same questions, except #1 and #2.


The Bible says that God creates evil AND darkness....
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

But though God creates evil and darkness, these are not His attributes. See Matthew 7:11. Luke 11:13
1 John 1:5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

What is evil? Death is evil, killing is evil, Destruction is evil. Animals do evil things every minute of every day, but they are not sinning. When a wolf begins devouring a caribou calf while it's still alive, that is absolutely evil, but the wolf is simply doing what it's nature to do. Our little dog, Pixie, looks like the cutest, sweetest, humblest little thing. If you saw her you would probably say that she is adorable. But Pixie becomes a bloodthirsty fiend when ravaging a small animal. She is doing evil but it isn't sin. God made great numbers of hideous predators and parasites; there are even predatory plants and I'm sure you could think of many other things just in Nature that are evil but they also are not sin. A tornado kills and destroys but it isn't sin either.God made good things and bad things...darkness is a bad thing. But we, in our lost condition, chose the bad.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Satan himself even chose evil when he began worshipping himself, the creation, instead of the creator. (Also see Jude 1:6)

Isaiah 14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High

When an animal kills another animal, that is clearly evil but it's not sin. They were actually made to do that.....
2 Peter2:12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, ........
I was watching a documentary on a fellow who lived in Alaska with the grizzly bears and filming himself praising and adoring them until one night the bears killed and ate him along with his girlfriend. The bears clearly did evil to the couple, but they didn't sin. We on the other hand, have the capacity to love and love is closely related to worship...if not the same thing. Do we worship the Grizzly bears or God? Do we love the physical or the spiritual? Do we love the World or Jesus? If Jesus made all the good things and the bad things, did we go wrong by choosing the bad instead of the good and worshipping/Loving the creation instead of the Creator? Was this what generated sin?
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I understand that particular sermon took it's text from Titus 2:11-15

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Theres one for the TULIP theologians
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

But you said this...

I gave up totally on Adrian Rogers when , in a broadcast sermon on Lot ("A disgrace to grace") said that once we have accepted Christ (using the salvation prayer) we are eternally secure; we can live filthy rotten lives, like Lot, & still be saved. That is NOT Calvinism, nor is it Gospel Christianity.

Tell me something sir, if a saved person is not capable of "living a filthy rotten life", then why did Paul put verse 12 in Titus 2:2? Why the need to teach us to live godly if we are just going to do it automatically? 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Sir, we are not robots before we get saved, nor after. God enabled us all with a free will. We can choose evil or good. The thing about GRACE is that it is God's unmerited favor. He is the one who KEEPS me saved and If I sin He WILL chasten me. He might even kill me. I have TWO natures; a sin nature and the New nature. The one I FEED is the one which will prosper and control me. Why else would the Bible tell CHRISTIANS to walk in the Spirit and not the flesh? My FLESH still has lusts, the Bible says. If you are a child of God, you can do two things: Live for Jesus or suffer chastening or even go to an early grave.

But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. That verse was spoken to Born again Christians. We are not reprogrammed robots, sir. We have WILLS and my Will chooses to reject Calvinistic doctrine, just like yours holds to it. Edited by heartstrings
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We started with Calvinism, then meandered over to eternal security, and now we're jumping into eschotology?


And now keyboards

Bro Ian to get ½ hold down ALT key amd type in 171 on your numberpad then you get ½.
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I understand that particular sermon took it's text from Titus 2:11-15

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Theres one for the TULIP theologians
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

But you said this...

Tell me something sir, if a saved person is not capable of "living a filthy rotten life", then why did Paul put verse 12 in Titus 2:2? Why the need to teach us to live godly if we are just going to do it automatically? 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Sir, we are not robots before we get saved, nor after. God enabled us all with a free will. We can choose evil or good. The thing about GRACE is that it is God's unmerited favor. He is the one who KEEPS me saved and If I sin He WILL chasten me. He might even kill me. I have TWO natures; a sin nature and the New nature. The one I FEED is the one which will prosper and control me. Why else would the Bible tell CHRISTIANS to walk in the Spirit and not the flesh? My FLESH still has lusts, the Bible says. If you are a child of God, you can do two things: Live for Jesus or suffer chastening or even go to an early grave.

But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. That verse was spoken to Born again Christians. We are not reprogrammed robots, sir. We have WILLS and my Will chooses to reject Calvinistic doctrine, just like yours holds to it.

Paul agrees with me that your suggestion that as Christian believers we are free & capable of "living a filthy rotten life" is utterly repugnant.

Rom. 6:
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

John underlines that:
1 John 3:
1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

James 2:17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

As usual with anticalvinists, you are developing your own false logic & so denying the clear teaching of Scripture. Your teaching is dangerous, if not evil. Too many big names in the ministry have secretly lived in sin, & when found out expect to be reinstated after an apology. NO, Sir. if a supposed Christian does not live a godly life, he should not be accepted as a Christian. A Christian CANNOT live a "filthy rotten life."
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I find it amazing that intelligent people believe some are chosen and some not. The entire bible shows free will in man's interaction with God from Adam's creation and fall to the last verse in Revelation. There has always been choice and the consequences for those choices. It's very easy to take individual verses and passages out of context and create a doctrine, but we must never forget that the Word is also a True history of God's dealings with man and a revelation of His character in those dealings. We must take the Word in it's entirety from first word to last and if we believe that it is the entire inspired Word of God and is in order from beginning to end and never contradicts itself - then we must take any and all verses and passages dealing with any doctrine and compare it in light of the entire message that the Word teaches and with the character of God revealed and then we will see that God has always given man a choice in regards to his interaction with God.

Edited by 2Tim215
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Paul agrees with me that your suggestion that as Christian believers we are free & capable of "living a filthy rotten life" is utterly repugnant.

Rom. 6:
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Why admonish them to "reckon themselves dead" and why tell them not to yield themselves to sin if that were not possible?



John underlines that:
1 John 3:
1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. If you are going to use this passage of scripture to prove your point, I ask you again: have you sinned ONE TIME since you made your profession of faith?

James 2:17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

As usual with anticalvinists, you are developing your own false logic & so denying the clear teaching of Scripture. Your teaching is dangerous, if not evil. Too many big names in the ministry have secretly lived in sin, & when found out expect to be reinstated after an apology. NO, Sir. if a supposed Christian does not live a godly life, he should not be accepted as a Christian. A Christian CANNOT live a "filthy rotten life."
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HS - none of those emphasised Scriptures allow Christians to practice sin. Of course we are not sinless, but we do not, dare not, continue in sin, knowing we are saved for eternity.

What is YOUR attitude to your fellow Christians enjoy drink & sex with the ungody, & blaspheme the precious name of your Saviour? Do you reassure them that their decision - salvation prayer - secures them for all eternity regardless of their continuing in sin?

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HS - none of those emphasised Scriptures allow Christians to practice sin. Of course we are not sinless, but we do not, dare not, continue in sin, knowing we are saved for eternity.

What is YOUR attitude to your fellow Christians enjoy drink & sex with the ungody, & blaspheme the precious name of your Saviour? Do you reassure them that their decision - salvation prayer - secures them for all eternity regardless of their continuing in sin?


Nobody said they did and I will assure you that neither Adrian Rogers nor I ever taught that it was OK to go on a wallow in sin and live a filthy life. Just the very title of the sermon you referred to should tell you that.

What is YOUR attitude to your fellow Christians enjoy drink & sex with the ungody, & blaspheme the precious name of your Saviour
First of all, I don't associate with people who do such things and when I encounter those who do, I doubt they are saved. But who am I to judge? huh? A Fundamental Baptist pastor just a few miles from here recently fell into some very serious sexual sin; we're talking "prison time" sin. Another one nearby is doing time for tax evasion. Another pastor lied on me. What to make of all that?

Go back to passage you posted from 1 John:
It states that he who is born of God CANNOT sin. Are you born of God? Have you sinned since your profession?
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Nobody said they did and I will assure you that neither Adrian Rogers nor I ever taught that it was OK to go on a wallow in sin and live a filthy life. Just the very title of the sermon you referred to should tell you that.

I hope that we can agree on that, but that does not answer my charge against Rogers, who specific said it was possible for a saved person to lead a filthy rotten life without losing his salvation. I maintain that such a person should be considered not saved at all.

First of all, I don't associate with people who do such things and when I encounter those who do, I doubt they are saved. But who am I to judge? huh? A Fundamental Baptist pastor just a few miles from here recently fell into some very serious sexual sin; we're talking "prison time" sin. Another one nearby is doing time for tax evasion. Another pastor lied on me. What to make of all that?

You are required to judge a person by their works. Such people have denied the faith. They are not saved.

Go back to passage you posted from 1 John:
It states that he who is born of God CANNOT sin. Are you born of God? Have you sinned since your profession?

What is John actually saying? Are you born of God? Do you live a sinless life?
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