A rebuke to an evangelical church

[Covenanter]

The church my son & d-i-l attend is an evangelical free church where all that is written & all they support around the world are good Gospel causes. The morning attendance is about 120 & evening about 60, all ages being well represented. Generally the sermons I have heard have been good & Biblical including the recent morning service when the preacher preached helpfully of 'love.' The evening was IMO a disgrace. My wife was equally concerned, though felt I should not have written.

The worship is led by a small group - in the morning a man with a guitar leading, a keyboard (piano) player, second guitar & violinist (all men) & a girl singer. Songs were all CCM, though 2 were good modern hymns.

The evening was very different. The worship leader was a woman with a very short see-through dress with a shorter slip. She led the whole service, including prayer. The drummer was there, usually restrained but gave his all in the closing verse of "When I survey." (The only old hymn, but to a modern tune.)

The preacher was one of the elders. The read from Luke 6:20ff beatitudes, then said he would not preach on his text. He started with a DVD of the music hall song "Laughing Policeman" & continued with the silly church notices mistakes that have been around for 50 years or more. "Laughter is God-given & good for us." The last 5 minutes he returned to the text & expounded.

Then the music group returned ....

This is what I wrote:

I left the family gathering to come out & worship - we have our priorities. I went home grieved by an unedifying time spent at what purports to be a Gospel church.

I too am concerned about "Islamisation" of Britain - I live in an immigrant area of west London - but at least the Muslims & other Asians dress decently. The woman leading the worship had indecent short clothing totally unsuitable for any public position. Any Muslim present would have been disgusted, & put off the Christian faith. "Look at the way English Christian girls dress - England is a Christian country." You could not argue because of the bad example set by such a Christian leading worship. "Everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way."

"Be a Christian - be miserable?"
I left the church grieved by that "sermon" & all the inane laughter & jokes plus the psychobabble about the health benefits of laughter. Laughter may be part of our human make-up; so are hunger, sorrow, sex & sin. I'm sure you would not preach on the God-given benefits of sex beginning with an example of uncontrolled sex.

I've listened again. Happily the "laughing policeman" is excluded, but the projected jokes don't come over with only sound. Only the last 5 minutes or so was worth listening to, when you starting preaching from the text. By then on Sunday evening my listening ability had been atrophied by all the nonsense.

I enjoy life - & have no difficulty laughing. I've been a believer for well over 50 years, all that time in FIEC churches, & have had my share of joys & sorrows. It is significant that the "fruit of the Spirit" includes joy but not laughter. Joy in our Lord is a wonderful part of our relationship with our Saviour. Laughter is momentary.

"It is better to heed a wise man's rebuke than to listen to the song of fools." Ecc. 7:5

In Christ

Ian Day

[John81]

In the early 1980s I know of a church that was similar. Their Sunday morning service was conservative and Bible-based. Their Sunday night service used to be similar but it was decided to make that service more "casual". At first, other than people being a little more dressed down and there being a little more music, the services weren't that different. However, it wasn't long before the dress became very casual (people were wearing what they might wear in their back yard or at the beach), the music became more modern and more rockin', the preaching even took on somewhat of an entertainment aspect to it and the preaching time was cut back; no doubt to give more time for music. (Today that church is much larger, but also much more entertainment driven in all services and even took a Charismatic turn)

Expressing oneself when such takes place is a good idea. We can't expect them to know anyone has a problem with it if no one says so.

In the 1990s we were in a church that took this turn and some of us raised concern but to no avail. Three of us finally schedualed a meeting with the pastor to discuss this. He let us speak and then he gave what was obviously a pre-planned speech. It was clear that going into the meeting he had no intention of giving us a fair hearing. His mind was made up, he already knew what he was going to say to us and his meeting with us was just for show. I'm glad we took a stand on the issue even though things continued as before. (As a side note, we each found another church to attend)

[farouk]

Did you get a reply?

[Covenanter]

Farouk: Did you get a reply?

From the elder:
Thank you for your comments regarding last Sunday evening's service (26th June). I am sorry you did not enjoy the service and I will discuss your views with [your son] as a Deacon and friend.

May God bless you

From my son:
I'm surprised you thought it was appropriate to send such a critical email to an anonymous account at my church without either discussing the situation properly with me first, or keeping me on copy. I don't really appreciate being taken by surprise on such matters.

I considered it to be an eldership matter, rather than personal/family. He wasn't at the service.

[farouk]

Covenanter:

Oh okay,

Ty.

[HappyChristian]

Farouk: Did you get a reply?





I considered it to be an eldership matter, rather than personal/family. He wasn't at the service.

I personally don't see anything wrong with your observations to the elder. I can understand your son's position, since he is a Deacon and you are known to be his father. My question is - he said you sent it to an anonymous account. Does that mean you didn't specify for whom the email was intended?

I don't think you needed to discuss the situation with your son beforehand, but it might have been a good idea to forewarn him, and let him know about your sorrow over the service. But, as well, I don't think the elder needed to discuss things with your son - even though he is a Deacon...

It is a local church issue, but you attended the service, so it does affect you.

[Salyan]

From the elder:
Thank you for your comments regarding last Sunday evening's service (26th June). I am sorry you did not enjoy the service and I will discuss your views with [your son] as a Deacon and friend.

May God bless you

I think he missed the point. Your 'enjoyment' of the service was not the issue...

[Covenanter]

I think he missed the point. Your 'enjoyment' of the service was not the issue...

Exactly.

[heartstrings]

I personally don't see anything wrong with your observations to the elder. I can understand your son's position, since he is a Deacon and you are known to be his father. My question is - he said you sent it to an anonymous account. Does that mean you didn't specify for whom the email was intended?

I don't think you needed to discuss the situation with your son beforehand, but it might have been a good idea to forewarn him, and let him know about your sorrow over the service. But, as well, I don't think the elder needed to discuss things with your son - even though he is a Deacon...

It is a local church issue, but you attended the service, so it does affect you.

Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) Ephesians 6:2

The Bible calls it "the first commandment with promise".The promise is a long life. Anyone who would attempt to sow discord between a son and his parent/s is only after one thing, his own stinking pride. He cares nothing about the life or longevity of your son or daughter, only hmself. The Bible says a scorner can;t take rebuke. He hates reproof . It hurt his pride. The Bible says that pride goeth before destruction and in his pride he doesn't care who he hurts. Anyone who would speak a single word to any child against either one of his parents, no matter the age of the child, which could influence that child to even intertain the thought of dishonoring his parents, is not a spiritual individual.

Debate thy cause with thy neighbour himself; and discover not a secret to another: Proverbs 25:9 The matter was between you and that individual: he has no business speaking to your son. By taking the matter to your son, his intention was to sow discord and God hates that.. You could send him another message warning him that God will deal with him for it. God will do it anyway, but at the judgement seat, he won't be able to say he wasn't warned.

[John81]

I think he missed the point. Your 'enjoyment' of the service was not the issue...

That was my first response when I read the reply.

[John81]

Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) Ephesians 6:2

The Bible calls it "the first commandment with promise".The promise is a long life. Anyone who would attempt to sow discord between a son and his parent/s is only after one thing, his own stinking pride. He cares nothing about the life or longevity of your son or daughter, only hmself. The Bible says a scorner can;t take rebuke. He hates reproof . It hurt his pride. The Bible says that pride goeth before destruction and in his pride he doesn't care who he hurts. Anyone who would speak a single word to any child against either one of his parents, no matter the age of the child, which could influence that child to even intertain the thought of dishonoring his parents, is not a spiritual individual.

Debate thy cause with thy neighbour himself; and discover not a secret to another: Proverbs 25:9 The matter was between you and that individual: he has no business speaking to your son. By taking the matter to your son, his intention was to sow discord and God hates that.. You could send him another message warning him that God will deal with him for it. God will do it anyway, but at the judgement seat, he won't be able to say he wasn't warned.

Excellent observations!

[heartstrings]

Proverbs 28:10 Whoso causeth the righteous to go astray in an evil way, he shall fall himself into his own pit: but the upright shall have good things in possession.

Doesn't matter who we are, saved or lost: if we run our mouths or use our influence to lead a brother astray, we are in big trouble. Scary thought.
Try to turn a son against a parent? Big big trouble.

[JerryNumbers]

The service you spoke of, I would not have set though it. Church is no place for such trash. That was mockery. The elder that said he would talk to your son is a troublemaker and knows not how to behave himself in church.