The Talents

[heartstrings]

I think its about the talents, gifts, God has given a person, using these talents as opportunities comes your way, remember. some Christians do have more opportunities than others. It has nothing whatsoever to do with losing ones salvation.

Some seem to think its about money, hording money, that is, having a bank full of money.

The ":talent" in the verse was money. But, spiritually, it is not about money at all. But you are correct, it has nothing to do with losing one's salavation; because salvation cannot be lost. It has to do with not having salvation to begin with. The unprofitable servant had no faith in his Master to begin with, therefore, he was cast into outer darkness.

Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Brother Rick]

The ":talent" in the verse was money. But, spiritually, it is not about money at all. But you are correct, it has nothing to do with losing one's salavation; because salvation cannot be lost. It has to do with not having salvation to begin with. The unprofitable servant had no faith in his Master to begin with, therefore, he was cast into outer darkness.

Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25: 14-15, 19, 25-26 "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15) And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey."
19) After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
25) And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26) His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
30) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Look, I'm all up for finding a practical way of applying this to today any way you can and I think we've got some real good ideas in this thread.

But if you look at it doctrinally, there's absolutely no way of getting around these facts:

1. The unprofitable servant is a servant of the Lord.
2. The unprofitable servant was given responsibility by the Lord.
3. The unprofitable servant failed where the others didn't.
4. The unprofitable servant was thrown into Hell because of it.

Remember, we're dealing with Matthew 25 here. This is sandwiched between the prophecy on the Tribulation (Matthew 24) and the Judgment of the Nations (after the Tribulation). It's not talking about Church Age saints at all. Does anyone really think that absolutely NO Tribulation saints will take the mark, and is there any Bible for this at all?

[HappyChristian]

Matthew 25: 14-15, 19, 25-26 "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15) And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey."
19) After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
25) And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26) His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
30) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Look, I'm all up for finding a practical way of applying this to today any way you can and I think we've got some real good ideas in this thread.

But if you look at it doctrinally, there's absolutely no way of getting around these facts:

1. The unprofitable servant is a servant of the Lord.
2. The unprofitable servant was given responsibility by the Lord.
3. The unprofitable servant failed where the others didn't.
4. The unprofitable servant was thrown into Hell because of it.

Remember, we're dealing with Matthew 25 here. This is sandwiched between the prophecy on the Tribulation (Matthew 24) and the Judgment of the Nations (after the Tribulation). It's not talking about Church Age saints at all. Does anyone really think that absolutely NO Tribulation saints will take the mark, and is there any Bible for this at all?

Rick, you also need to remember that Judas was one of the 12 Jesus chose. He knew Judas would betray Him, but He still chose Him. And the parable before the talents in Matthew 25 would indicate that it is speaking of those who "serve" without salvation. Both parables are referencing the same thing, with a different twist. The return of the Lord Jesus Christ. I don't believe that the parable of the virgins is speaking of the Tribulation period because their lamps needed oil, which is a picture of the Holy Spirit...the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth during the Tribulation.

We don't really know if any Tribulation saints will take the mark or not. We do know that they will seal their beliefs in their own blood (not that their blood will save them, but they will be martyrs). If they truly believe, will they take the mark? And what if someone who believes is captured by the antichrist's forces and made to take the mark? There are things the Bible is silent on so we can guess, but that is all it is. Taking the mark damns the soul. But would a SAINT take it? If they do, they aren't saints. SWIM?

[Guest]

Rick, you also need to remember that Judas was one of the 12 Jesus chose. He knew Judas would betray Him, but He still chose Him. And the parable before the talents in Matthew 25 would indicate that it is speaking of those who "serve" without salvation. Both parables are referencing the same thing, with a different twist. The return of the Lord Jesus Christ. I don't believe that the parable of the virgins is speaking of the Tribulation period because their lamps needed oil, which is a picture of the Holy Spirit...the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth during the Tribulation.

We don't really know if any Tribulation saints will take the mark or not. We do know that they will seal their beliefs in their own blood (not that their blood will save them, but they will be martyrs). If they truly believe, will they take the mark? And what if someone who believes is captured by the antichrist's forces and made to take the mark? There are things the Bible is silent on so we can guess, but that is all it is. Taking the mark damns the soul. But would a SAINT take it? If they do, they aren't saints. SWIM?

Hmmm....this is heading far afield?

We also have to remember it was a teaching example (similar to a parable). I kinda think the 12 were there alone with Christ for this one but, maybe not. Anyway, I believe Christ is teaching his expectation for the disciples during his absence. No "real" person was cast into outer darkness here. It stirred us into self examination and maybe it was designed that way for the 12.

[John81]

Indeed the servants are akin to the disciples. Just as Jesus called all of the 12 "disciples", so in His parable he calls them all servants. One can easily appear to be a part of the group, one of the saved, when in fact they are not.

Several good posts on this already. :thumb:

[Brother Rick]

Indeed the servants are akin to the disciples. Just as Jesus called all of the 12 "disciples", so in His parable he calls them all servants. One can easily appear to be a part of the group, one of the saved, when in fact they are not.

Several good posts on this already.

I agree, and Judas disciple/servant is a very valid point and I appreciate it. It's also a great defence if a cultist were to throw this passage at you. He'd probably counter and tell you that Judas lost his salvation (which I don't believe, I don't think he was ever saved to begin with).

There is a difference though, between Judas and this servant (as well as the servant in the end of Matthew 24). The difference I see is that this servant, from the narrative, is exactly the same as all the other servants, in fact in the chapter 24 account he is spoken of as actually being a "fellowservant" just like the one in Revelation that spoke to John in Heaven. Judas NEVER called Jesus "Lord" - he always called Him "master." In these accounts, the servants are all clearly identified as belonging to, serving, and being given responsibility directly from the Lord - that puts them all out of the professor category and into the possesor.

Back to something constructive: how would one prove that Judas was never saved to begin with as opposed to him losing it? This is the only passage I can think of along these lines:

John 17:11-12, "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Problem is, a person could take that either way to mean Judas lost it or was never saved to begin with. When people come at me with Judas I just tell them that it doesn't matter if he lost it or not - it was before Christ's blood was shed anyways.

[Guest]

There is a difference though, between Judas and this servant (as well as the servant in the end of Matthew 24). The difference I see is that this servant, from the narrative, is exactly the same as all the other servants, in fact in the chapter 24 account he is spoken of as actually being a "fellowservant" just like the one in Revelation that spoke to John in Heaven. Judas NEVER called Jesus "Lord" - he always called Him "master." In these accounts, the servants are all clearly identified as belonging to, serving, and being given responsibility directly from the Lord - that puts them all out of the professor category and into the possesor.

There are more differences/likenesses.

Judas was an identifiable person, this servant was not.
This servant was given less according to his lack of abilities.
I believe Christ portrayed this servant with only one mission (goods/talent) for a reason.
Judas had one mission too.
A person can have a similar appearance, similar activities, similar political views outwardly; but inside a ravenous wolf or cowardly back stabber.
Christ owns every human on earth or in the grave saved or lost.
I can't see this "wicked servant" as possessing but I can see both Judas and he pretending.

[Seth Doty]

When we get in these sort of conversations I feel like I'm the only one who's willing to look at the Scriptures and adjust what he believes accordingly. The passage clearly shows that both servants are servants of the Lord and (same thing in Matthew 24) then one winds up in Hell. To say one is a "professor" and not a "possessor" is to blatantly read something into the passage that's not there.

Your problem here rick is that your interpretation does not fit in with the rest of scripture. No interpretation of any scripture is valid if it contradicts other scriptures. Saying that a person can loose their salvation at any time based on works flies in the face of everything the scriptures teaches about the character of God and what salvation is in the first place.

Before automatically assuming the wicked servant in the parable Matthew 24 is a saved believer that looses salvation in another dispensation look at the whole counsel of God. Look at some of the other things Jesus had to say.

"Matthew 3:10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

"Matthew 7:17-19 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit ; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

Then there is the parable of the sower:

"Mark 4:13-20 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? The sower soweth the word. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred. "

Biblically when looking at many scriptures,(and not just these) it is impossible for someone to be truly saved and not produce any fruit assuming there is sufficient time. There will be no "one talent" Christians that buried God's one talent in the earth and did nothing with it. Good seed in good soil equals growth and fruit in due season. Any parable of Christ where a servant produces nothing at all is indicative of a lost, but religious, individual. Since the multiplication of talents is good growth, in the parable asked about in the OP the multiplication of "talents" can be fairly called "fruit". The initial talents each individual was given are of course representative of gifts from God that you did not work to receive, it was simply given to you. The talents that were gained as a result of making use of the talents "given" to them represent the fruit of the believer. What have you done with Jesus so to speak. The servant with "one talent" represents someone who has only mental knowledge of Christ. Someone who believes IN Christ, but has not believed on Christ to the salvation of their soul. Essentially what the book of James talks about, how that faith without works is dead. As it is sometimes expressed, we are saved by grace through faith alone, but true saving faith will be followed by works. Out of the seed of saving faith will grow the fruit of works in due season.