EDITED: Where is my church going??

[futurehope]

Some of you remember the first thread on the shack - as do I. My reason for this one is that a woman in our church gave it to my wife and reccomended that she read it. I thought nothing of it (as I had forgotten the title of the book and the previous thread). Then my wife mentioned the "woman-god" or "father-goddess", it alerted me as to what this book was.

I approached our pastor with the guidance that we should address the issues of this book and worn our congregation about the book only to find out that his wife also read the book. He said that some of those things bothered her, but that she said the bigger picture of the book was very good. Through the course of spending about an hour discussing this book and it's issues, he expressed to me that his wife would share the story with him as she read it and it helped him in the area of forgiveness in his life with a strayed daughter. I began to understand why it seemed he was defending this book a little.

Through our discussion, he did admit that the alarms should certainly be sounded about what to look out for, but he didn't feel like the book should be condemned. He ended with wanting me to read the book in it's entirety and then talk with others about the book to determine what impact it was having on a spiritual level.

I just don't understand how I am supposed to do that. It's almost like going to a bar and drinking what you know you shouldn't, just to see if it has the impact you already beleive it will.

What bothered me more than anything is that it seemed that he thought the biggest problem was the black woman god, or the asian woman spirit. He seemed to almost ignore my concerns as to the statement the book credits Jesus with saying that he is just the best way for people to relate to god and the spirit. And, what I think is the biggest problem of all, the books apparent attempt to put across the whole forgiveness without repentance and that God doesn't judge sin.

It's like the gay rights activists always saying "We should all just learn to love and forgive eachother."

Their statement is really 100% accurate. But they make it on the foundation of sin and wrongful motives.

The same is true with this book - to me. It does make some good points about God wanting our fellowship and about us learning to forgive, but can we accept that when it is innertangled with heresy, blasphemy, and false teaching?

Am I getting way to hung up on this? Because it is really weighing on my mind. Our pastor also allowed a man to preach from the NIV last week. I am becoming very concerned for the future of our church.

Please, any fellow pastors or youth pastors, and all of you of sound mind and doctrine for that matter, pray for me, my pastor, my family and my church; and offer any advice you can on this matter.

Thank you and God Bless

Futurehope

[JerryNumbers]

I suppose, there are many books out there, that has some very good points in them that might do us all some good. but if it contains such stuff as you suggest, and I'm sure it does. Why read it? When recommend it to anyone?

Doesn't a little leaven do much harm? But it sounds like that book contains much leaven.

Statements such as this amazes me.

>

But is that not just a tactic, is not that persons using that tactic to try and make their self look good and trying to make the Christians look bad. Kind of like it was done Jesus, they trying to trick us, trip us up, and as I already said trying to make us look bad.

The gays would love nothing better than to get us to lay aside God's Word and welcome them into our churches and leave out the step of repentance. So would many others, murders, adulteress and so on.

John the Baptist refused to baptize people who showed no repentance, that is a good example for us to follow, for Jesus also taught, preached, repentance. Below is in part my sermon from this morning, it was not really on repentance, but repentance still was a part of it.

>>>>> start sermon part
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay, but except ye ?REPENT?, ye shall all like wise perish.

Jesus repeated it in verse 5, ?except ye ?REPENT?, ye shall all like wise perish.

If you like you can compare Matthew 4:17 & Mark 1:15

John the Baptist preached repentance too, he would not even baptize those who did not bring sufficient evidence to prove they had repented.

Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of ?REPENTANCE? for the remission of sins.

Matthew 3:2 And saying, ?REPENT? ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 3:7-11
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Matthew 3:7-11

Being as John refused to baptizes those who showed no repentance, & Jesus stressing repentance, we can assume anyone who leaves out repenting, they have no bee saved.

Quickly lets take a look at what repenting is-

Noah Webster?s 1828 Dictionary of American English

Repentance means:
1. Real penitence; sorrow or deep contrition for sin, as an offense and dishonor to God, a violation of his holy law, and the basest ingratitude towards a Being of infinite benevolence. This is called evangelical repentance, and is accompanied and followed by amendment of life.
2. Repentance is a change of mind, or a conversion from sin to God.
3. Repentance is the relinquishment of any practice, from conviction that it has offended God.
4. Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation. 2 Cor 7. Mat 3.
{yes, the dictionary use to include Bible verse}
2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Matthew 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for ?REPENTANCE.?
>>> end sermon part

Accepting people, gays or anyone else without repentance is dangerous, we could doom them to hell forever, plus the Father and our Savior would not appreciate it the least bit either. I say doom them to hell forever, for if we accept them without repentance that may give them a false hope of being accepted by God, them having that false hope they may never repent, but hold onto that false hope.

We've got a Book of truth's, the Holy Bible. We need to stick to all of its truths, if we compromise one truth, say that book you spoke of, how many others compromises will follow?

I might add, I've got some commentary books that has some things in them I disagree with, but nothing like you state is in the book you speak of. I would not want to have no part of it. I might add, if I found something in my commentaries such as you speak of, I would destroy them.

Hope I stated that right, its later than I thought it was, my eyes are getting heavy, catch you later.

[kevinmiller]

Can't a person learn forgiveness as well from God's Word as from a book? I'm not against good books, but I don't see the point of reading something that is demeaning the holiness and glory of God in order to help us forgive others. :huh:

[Guest Guest]

One of my SIL's loaned me this book a month ago. With all the other books I have been reading, I just got around to reading the "Forward" last night. I don't think this thread is coincidence. :-) Thanks futurehope for the "heads up" on this book! The first thing that got my attention was that it is on "The #1 New York Times Bestsellers" list, with over 2 million copies in print. This was a "red light" for me. LOL. However, when I looked at the bottom of the book, it had a quote from Eugene Peterson that said: "This book has the potential to do for our generation what John Bunyan's [i]Pilgrim's Progress[/i] did for his. It's that good!" Well, to me..."potential" is the key word here.

I got an eerie feeling while just reading the "Forward." I don't "judge a book by it's cover" and actually was going to take some time to delve into this book some more today. I am glad I won't have to waste my time. :lol Again, I am glad that you posted this...futurehope.

[quote="futurehope"]
The same is true with this book - to me. [b]It does make some good points about God wanting our fellowship and about us learning to forgive, but can we accept that when it is innertangled with heresy, blasphemy, and false teaching?
[/b][b]
Am I getting way to hung up on this?[/b] Because it is really weighing on my mind.[b] Our pastor also allowed a man to preach from the NIV last week.[b] I am becoming very concerned for the future of our church.[/b][/b][/quote]

Yes...learning to forgive is necessary, but...as you said, it cannot be "inner tangled with heresy, blasphemy, and false teaching."

No, you are not "getting way to hung up on this." If this book is promoting [b]forgiveness w/o repentance[/b], then "NO." Did your pastor allow the man to preach from the NIV to compare it to the KJV? I would say that the "majority" of us are "very concerned for the future of our church." You are not alone, futurehope.

[quote="Jerry80871852"]Quickly lets take a look at what repenting is-

[b]Noah Webster?s 1828 Dictionary of American English[/b]

Repentance means:
1. Real penitence; sorrow or deep contrition for sin, as an offense and dishonor to God, a violation of his holy law, and the basest ingratitude towards a Being of infinite benevolence. This is called evangelical repentance, and is accompanied and followed by amendment of life.
2. Repentance is a change of mind, or a conversion from sin to God.
3. Repentance is the relinquishment of any practice, from conviction that it has offended God.
4. [b]Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation. 2 Cor 7. Mat 3.
{yes, the dictionary use to include Bible verse}
2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Matthew 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for ?REPENTANCE.?[/b]
>>> end sermon part[/quote]

:amen: for the 1828 "Dictionary of American English!" All other dictionaries since...are corrupted with man's "sinful" words. Noah Webster was a true "man of God." If he could see what they have done with "Webster's Dictionary" since? :sad

[quote="kevinmiller"]Can't a person learn forgiveness as well from God's Word as from a book?[/quote]

All I need to know about forgiveness, Kevin---is in God's Word...the KJV. Also, I "learn forgiveness" from the actions and words of good, Godly Christians. :thumb Sure...there are good books out there, but nothing beats the Bible. :-) I have to be very careful with books...especially, when man puts them on the "Best Seller's" list. :smile

[matie-k]

I've read some praises for this book like it's the best thing since sliced bread. I just don't think I could read something in good conscience that makes such a huge error of who God is. I mean, wouldn't it seem logical that for someone who loves God, it would bother them greatly to read a book where their God is erroneously portrayed as a jolly black woman? I have nothing against black women, but that's not God!

[Guest Guest]

:goodpost: Matie-K.[quote="matie-k"]I could read something in good conscience that makes such a huge error of who God is.[/quote]


Absolutely! I won't go any further than the "Forward." :thumb

[quote="matie-k"]I mean, wouldn't it seem logical that for someone who loves God, it would bother them greatly to read a book where their God is erroneously portrayed as a jolly black woman? I have nothing against black women, [b]but that's not God![/b][/quote]

Yes! :coffee

[dwayner79]

I take the opposite view. (surprised?)

Books like these that kind of "take over" Christendom are important for us to know about. Books like Purpose Driven Life, and the Shack, and the Left Behind series, etc. influence our culture. I would also add that opposing books that reach "stardom" like the DaVinci code, God Delusion, etc. give us insight into how the world sees Christianity. Now obviously, I don't recommend making these books the majority of our reading intake, but these books should be read, and understood in light of Scripture.

I agree with your pastor's advice. Go read the thing for yourself. Understand it. Be able to talk from knowledge. Don't overlook the negative aspects of it, but be willing to find the biblical principles. There are many people who are going to read that book, and be able to see past the allegorical leaps and see the message. As rooted Christians, reading some questionable material is allows us to stay informed, and to be more readily able to talk to our culture. (By "questionable" I mean of spiritual merit... things that are openly sinful are obviously not to be consumed)

I have not read this book yet. I own it, and plan on reading it at some time soon, so I am avoiding judging it until I read it.

I will make one statement. I have seen more Godly characteristics in some old black women then in some old white men. Our God has feminine and masculine characteristics. To write off the book on the simple merit that the allegorical reference to God is a woman is shallow and short-sighted. God has plenty of feminine qualities. And allegory by definition is only symbolic.

[deafnva77]

you are more likely to know about it anyway rather you read it or not. Because these people are more likely to preach to you about the book. Or if you ask them a question, they are more likely give you their opinion based from that book. It would be like reading it except you are hearing/dealing with it from other people.

[Guest Guest]

[quote="dwayner79"]I take the opposite view. (surprised?)[/quote]

No, of course, I am not surprised dwayner. :lol:

[quote="dwayner79"]Books like these that kind of "take over" Christendom are important for us to know about. Books like Purpose Driven Life, and the Shack, and the Left Behind series, etc. influence our culture. I would also add that opposing books that reach "stardom" like the DaVinci code, God Delusion, etc. [b]give us insight into how the world sees Christianity. [/b]Now obviously, I don't recommend making these books the majority of our reading intake, but these books should be read, and understood in light of Scripture.
[/quote]
[b]
Highlighted area:[/b] The only reason, IMHO. Personally speaking, the only series that I liked was "Left Behind." Although, a bulk of Christians would disagree with me. LOL.

[quote="dwayner79"]I will make one statement. I have seen more Godly characteristics in some old black women then in some old white men.[/quote]

I see your point. I know many good Godly black women. However, I will tell you that they know God is a man. :smile

[no name joe]

I don't see reading any book as harmful. We are all smart enough to sort thorugh what is truth and what is fiction.

If someone tells me "Don't read that book, it contains herasy," I'm going to read it. Telling folks something is bad is the best way to sell something....whether it be books, music, television, etc.

I'd rather read a book, and discuss its contents after having educated myself on what the book is about.

I've not read this book yet, and don't plan on it, though now that I see people bashing it, I may just go read it to see for myself.

Don't trust what others say. If you want to, read it for yourself and make up your own mind. Reading and thinking can only improve a person.

[deafnva77]

I can see people as sort of a rebellion type of person who don't like being told no. And will read it despite the warning.

and believe it or not, I do listen to heresey warnings. It's not worth the time or trouble to read something not worthy to read.

Have you ever gone to a movie where people say, "It's a horrible movie.... So boring... don't go" do you rebel against that type of warning.. or just warning about heresey?

[Guest Guest]

[quote="kindofblue1977"]I don't see reading any book as harmful. We are all smart enough to sort thorugh what is truth and what is fiction. [/quote]

"We" are Kind. :-) However, sometimes a person who is lost...may not see "what is truth and what is fiction." I know many lost people who do, but---I also know many who do not.

[quote="kindofblue1977"]Don't trust what others say. If you want to, read it for yourself and make up your own mind. Reading and thinking can only improve a person.[/quote]

Yes! Everyone has their own mind. :thumb

[Guest Guest]

and believe it or not' date=' I do listen to heresey warnings.[b'] It's not worth the time or trouble to read something not worthy to read.

Me, too...deafnva. Also, I want to "guard my heart." :smile

[HappyChristian]

We do need to be careful what we allow into our eye-gates. The Bible tells us "mine eye affecteth mine heart" and "be simple concerning evil."

I agree with kind and dwayne, up to a point. I have, for my job, read many books that aren't what we could call "good." But at the same time, a warning is good...when we know that a book contains certain things, if we recommend it to be read, I think we should recommend it with the caveat as to what the problem is.

If we wash our minds properly with the water of the Word, we may be able to handle books like this. But I know personally people who have been derailed in their Christianity because of books they've read. Yes, I guess we could assume they were weak Christians before they read those books. But we would all behoove ourselves if we remember "mine eye affecteth mine heart."

BTW - I had thought about reading this book, but once I read the book jacket, I lost interest...it's not something that appeals to me as a reader. I have read DaVinci Code (for my job - at the request of a Catholic who wanted to discuss it). But it doesn't purport to be Christian fiction. The Shack is supposed to be allegory. Perhaps it is, but the description didn't catch my interest enough to read it.

[deafnva77]

I'm still one of those who have not read any Rick Warren books. I don't plan to either. I have plenty other books to read.