A few questions on predestination

[anime4christ]

First, I'll have to explain where I'm coming from on this. As many on this forum know, I grew up in an extremely Arminianistic environment. From a young age though (around 14), I got interested in IFB theology because it seemed more Biblical to me than the ECB (Evangelical Christian Baptist) theology I was taught which is actually rather diverse and sometimes contradictory. Though there are a few high profile ECBs who are Calvinistic, for the most part, ECBs are Arminianistic. In any case, I don't care for any label, whether it be Calvinist, Baptist, IFB, ECB, whatever; my main pursuit is the truth. After much research, I've come to the conclusion that Calvinism is very logical. However, I believe it does not fully explain all parts of the Bible and perhaps even discards some parts (the way most people understand 5 point Calvinism, that is). The prOBlem is that God is beyond human logic, so I believe 5 point Calvinism is not adequate to explain the Bible fully the way it attempts to. I now hold a sort of moderate Calvinistic view, though I have not studied moderate Calvinism enough to say that's exactly what I believe. So, knowing where I'm coming from now, I would like to ask the following questions. I am not trying to be provocative, I am truly curious about how to answer these questions from an IFB point of view.

Given places such as Jeremiah 1:5, Romans 8, etc. we can see that God knows everything ahead of time. Calvinists, Arminians, and everyone in between will agree on this; only open theologists will disagree and say that God does not know exactly how things will happen.

So, if God knows exactly what will happen, doesn't that mean that the future is then predetermined already? If it is predetermined, who determined it? Laws of nature? Fate? People who haven't existed yet? or God? I just can't get passed this question except with God being the answer. What do IFBs believe here?

That said, I don't believe that God doesn't give people free will. Like I said before, even though the Calvinistic explanation is logical, God is beyond our logic and I believe He can use people with free will to accomplish His predestined will in absolute detail. While to our mind, predestination and free will are contradictory, they are both talked about in the Bible, so I believe both are true. Am I right?

That brings me to the last question (assuming I am right on the other two): If God predetermines every detail in history, wouldn't He also predetermine the salvation of individuals (though, the way I see it, still giving them the the choice to accept or reject His grace even though it it illogical, but is written so in the Bible)?

The logical answers to those questions lead me to believe that Calvinism is (mostly) true, but other passages in the Bible clearly show to me that Calvinism does not fully explain the Bible. What do you guys say to that?

[Invicta]

I had a Calvinist friend who said it was like seeing a church with "Free Salvation" over the door, but when you entered, you saw it said, "Saved by Grace."

There are passages which say "God is not willing that any should perish," but there are others that say, "You did not choose me, I chose you." How do we reconcile that? Do we believe them both? I do, but I can't explain it.

Martin Luther in his Bondage of the Will, said something like: "God gave Adam freewill, Adam sinned, and since then our freewill is only able to sin."

[holster]

I am impressed by your quest for truth. On these "hard" questions my personal practice is to break everything down to simplest form. The Bible plainly and flatly states:

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

You can't get much simpler than that. Thus.. all the "difficult" things (predestination, etc) must all somehow "fit" within this simple truth.

God is not a God of confusion. He makes salvation simple (faith alone) therefore, why would he have confusion as to WHO could be saved. I think HE doesn't. Read the above verses again. It is US who makes it confusing just become everything doesn't fit "nicely" into our little cupboard.

[JerryNumbers]

I am impressed by your quest for truth. On these "hard" questions my personal practice is to break everything down to simplest form. The Bible plainly and flatly states:

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

You can't get much simpler than that. Thus.. all the "difficult" things (predestination, etc) must all somehow "fit" within this simple truth.

God is not a God of confusion. He makes salvation simple (faith alone) therefore, why would he have confusion as to WHO could be saved. I think HE doesn't. Read the above verses again. It is US who makes it confusing just become everything doesn't fit "nicely" into our little cupboard.

So true, besides that if Calvinism was correct, of course it isn't, it would contradict those simple verses you use, as well as many others and we could not trust none of the Bible.


What is wrong with a label? John the Baptist had one and he did not seem to mind it, plus take a look at who gave it to him, God.

Even those churches who call their self nondenominational have a label, its nondenominational.

[Seth Doty]

Given places such as Jeremiah 1:5, Romans 8, etc. we can see that God knows everything ahead of time. Calvinists, Arminians, and everyone in between will agree on this; only open theologists will disagree and say that God does not know exactly how things will happen.

So, if God knows exactly what will happen, doesn't that mean that the future is then predetermined already? If it is predetermined, who determined it? Laws of nature? Fate? People who haven't existed yet? or God? I just can't get passed this question except with God being the answer. What do IFBs believe here?

That said, I don't believe that God doesn't give people free will. Like I said before, even though the Calvinistic explanation is logical, God is beyond our logic and I believe He can use people with free will to accomplish His predestined will in absolute detail. While to our mind, predestination and free will are contradictory, they are both talked about in the Bible, so I believe both are true. Am I right?

That brings me to the last question (assuming I am right on the other two): If God predetermines every detail in history, wouldn't He also predetermine the salvation of individuals (though, the way I see it, still giving them the the choice to accept or reject His grace even though it it illogical, but is written so in the Bible)?

The logical answers to those questions lead me to believe that Calvinism is (mostly) true, but other passages in the Bible clearly show to me that Calvinism does not fully explain the Bible. What do you guys say to that?

Gods foreknowledge of an event does not mean he predetermined that it must be so. Does God know who will be saved and who will not? Yes, of course he does, but that does not mean that anyone could not be saved if they wanted to be saved or that he picked some and did not pick others. God gave people free will, the fact that God is omniscient and knows what their free will choice will be before they make it does not make their choice any less free.

There are some things that God did predetermine but what he predetermined was based on his foreknowledge. For example before the foundation of the world it was predetermined that Christ would be slain for our sin, but that was based on his foreknowledge of the fall of man. He predetermined that those who believed would be conformed into the image of Christ, but he did not select some to believe and others to be condemned to hell.

The root prOBlem of Calvinism is that if God predetermined everything and there is no free will then God is ultimately the one responsible for the existence of sin. Not Satan, and not ourselves. God would have willed Satan to fall, willed man to fall, and willed every evil that ever happened. If that were so and God is the one responsible for sin then that is a violation of what scripture teaches his very character is. As it is written: "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all". That is why Calvinism is evil. At the root, when followed to it's final logical conclusion, Calvinism teaches that God himself is evil by the very standard of the bible. Of course they can't and will not admit to that, but it is where that false teaching leads.

[anime4christ]

@holster: I agree and I fully believe those verses as well. A Calvinist would say however, that even though we are told to do something (eg. repent and believe), the fact that we do it was predetermined by God already; so to them, it is only an issue of levels. Classic Arminianism was an offshoot from Calvinism, and also admits that history was predetermined before time, the only difference is they believe it wasn't God who predetermined it. The only other option is open theology, which states that God doesn't know the future exactly, but only the possible outcomes of the future, which contradicts Scripture.

My bigger issues with both Calvinism and Arminianism are other teachings besides God's Sovereignty and predestination. However, I can't see how to answer my three original questions on predestination from a Biblical perspective without it matching the Calvinistic answer. Open theology erases those questions completely and replaces them with the questions "Who, if not God, is in control of History?" and "Why does the Bible appear to teach that history* is predetermined?" so I reject open theology. Arminianism, however, faces a similar prOBlem: If history* is predetermined, who predetermined it, if not God?
*By history, I mean absolutely all the details in every person's life, not only the main events.

That said, I don't believe God's Sovereignty removes human free will, which would then logically remove human responsibility as well. When one Biblical doctrine is expanded on far enough to contradict another, it is not Biblical anymore, IMHO. I believe it just shows the limitations of our human logic here.

@Jerry80871852: What I mean is that I don't care which label the truth is labeled with and which label a lie is labeled with. The important thing is to find the truth and embrace it and find out the lies and reject them. I have no idea what label people would give me, but I am a member of an ECB church, I believe in God's absolute sovereignty, yet I also believe God created us free agents. Those aren't enough of course, to be determining factors as to what label to give me, but that doesn't bother me much. If asked, I'll say I'm a Christian and a Baptist, and that I believe Calvinism is closer to the truth than Arminianism, though neither fully explain the Bible, but I don't label myself as either.

[heartstrings]

Predestination has to do with being conformed to the image of Christ. It is not about being predestined to be saved. And it always referrs to a group; never individuals.

[anime4christ]

Predestination has to do with being conformed to the image of Christ. It is not about being predestined to be saved. And it always referrs to a group; never individuals.

Well, I'm not talking only about Romans 8, though it leads me to the first question I asked. I can quote passages talking about God knowing and even planning the lives of individuals before they happened. That's not the point though; whether or not the passages refer to groups or individuals, my three original questions still stand unanswered. This is where I am at right now, I've gone past the groups and individuals thing. Since both are mentioned in the Bible, I don't think it's useful to discuss which one it is. I want to know how to answer to the three above questions or if say, open theology were correct, how can those three questions be shown as too presumptuous and what could you replace them with in that case?

[John81]

God is in complete control; otherwise He would not be God. Scripture is clear that all things are in His hand. Scripture is also clear that God created all things for His own reason and purpose and that He holds all things in His hands.

As has been aluded to, Scripture tells us in several places that God specifically brought forth certain people for certain tasks/reason. These fall both into the realm of the godly and ungodly. Scripture makes it clear the Creator can take a lump of clay and make vessels to honour and to dishonour and this is related to God forming men for different purposes. God then asks who is the clay to question this? Can not the Creator do as He pleases?

We are also told that God's ways are not our ways and that God's thoughts are so much higher than our own that we can't fully comprehend. It's also expressed that God specifically withholds some things from us; that not all things can be known.

One thing Scripture is very clear on is that God is in complete, 100% control of all things (past, present and future). Nothing happens outside Gods control. God works all things for His purposes and we can't fully grasp this.

Consider there are about 6,000,000,000 people on earth right now. God brought forth each person for His reason and purpose and His plan will be fullfilled for each individual and humanity and eternity as a whole.

Scripture tells us that we are so sin tainted that we can't come to Him on our own. We must be called, drawn to Him. This is an area which brings about dispute. Can we be called and reject the call or if we are called do we have no choice but to be saved? There are splinter views on this among the various sides of this debate.

As the OP has pointed out, sometimes the lables themselves cause prOBlems. There are many who won't even accept what they claim to believe in if they see it listed under a certain label.

God is in complete control. God has a plan and it will be fully fullfilled.

[trc123]

God is in complete control; otherwise He would not be God. Scripture is clear that all things are in His hand. Scripture is also clear that God created all things for His own reason and purpose and that He holds all things in His hands.

As has been aluded to, Scripture tells us in several places that God specifically brought forth certain people for certain tasks/reason. These fall both into the realm of the godly and ungodly. Scripture makes it clear the Creator can take a lump of clay and make vessels to honour and to dishonour and this is related to God forming men for different purposes. God then asks who is the clay to question this? Can not the Creator do as He pleases?

We are also told that God's ways are not our ways and that God's thoughts are so much higher than our own that we can't fully comprehend. It's also expressed that God specifically withholds some things from us; that not all things can be known.

One thing Scripture is very clear on is that God is in complete, 100% control of all things (past, present and future). Nothing happens outside Gods control. God works all things for His purposes and we can't fully grasp this.

Consider there are about 6,000,000,000 people on earth right now. God brought forth each person for His reason and purpose and His plan will be fullfilled for each individual and humanity and eternity as a whole.

Scripture tells us that we are so sin tainted that we can't come to Him on our own. We must be called, drawn to Him. This is an area which brings about dispute. Can we be called and reject the call or if we are called do we have no choice but to be saved? There are splinter views on this among the various sides of this debate.

As the OP has pointed out, sometimes the lables themselves cause prOBlems. There are many who won't even accept what they claim to believe in if they see it listed under a certain label.

God is in complete control. God has a plan and it will be fully fullfilled.

I don't see how God has to be in "complete control" in order to be God. By saying so you make God the author of much wickedness and evil. God is God and you can't tell God what he must do and be, he tells us by his Word and as he chooses to reveal his truth to man. There are things that God has plainly put in motion and chosen to remove his direct and complete control of on a daily basis (the weather comes to mind for one); but God chooses to intervene as he sees fit and in a manner in which it is consistent with his character, righteousness, love and Word.

Perhaps you meant "complete control" in another way than "complete control" such as all things work together for good or God is constantly bringing good out of evil circumstances so that his name is glorified; but in my understanding of "complete control" this phrase means he makes it all happen and is the author of everything (good and evil) and therefore responsible for same.

[Pastor Matt]

Gods foreknowledge of an event does not mean he predetermined that it must be so. Does God know who will be saved and who will not? Yes, of course he does, but that does not mean that anyone could not be saved if they wanted to be saved or that he picked some and did not pick others. God gave people free will, the fact that God is omniscient and knows what their free will choice will be before they make it does not make their choice any less free.
There are some things that God did predetermine but what he predetermined was based on his foreknowledge. For example before the foundation of the world it was predetermined that Christ would be slain for our sin, but that was based on his foreknowledge of the fall of man. He predetermined that those who believed would be conformed into the image of Christ, but he did not select some to believe and others to be condemned to hell.

Good points Seth.

Foreknowledge and predetermined salvation is two different things. In order to have a conversation about Calvinism both terms need to be examined.

[JerryNumbers]

Right, by that reasoning the man who rapes and murders a young girl, God is responsible. The man who walks into the store and rOBs and murders the cashier, God is responsible.

No, the man who rapes and murdered the young girl, he is totally responsible and he cannot blame it on God.

The man who walk in and rOBs and murders the cashier, he holds total responsibility, he cannot blame God.

Of course no man understands God ways, yet He is not the author of sin, and He can work things out for our good without sending a human along to sin. We better not be giving him credit for sin.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I will not try to fully understand it, for there is no way for a mere man to fully understand God who has perfect ways, but be assure, God is not and has never been the author of sin. Actually when it comes to sin, man needs no help from God, he is already doing every imaginable evil and wicked thing on his very own.

Isa 64:6

[John81]

I don't see how God has to be in "complete control" in order to be God. By saying so you make God the author of much wickedness and evil. God is God and you can't tell God what he must do and be, he tells us by his Word and as he chooses to reveal his truth to man. There are things that God has plainly put in motion and chosen to remove his direct and complete control of on a daily basis (the weather comes to mind for one); but God chooses to intervene as he sees fit and in a manner in which it is consistent with his character, righteousness, love and Word.

Perhaps you meant "complete control" in another way than "complete control" such as all things work together for good or God is constantly bringing good out of evil circumstances so that his name is glorified; but in my understanding of "complete control" this phrase means he makes it all happen and is the author of everything (good and evil) and therefore responsible for same.

Nothing happens without God either bringing it about or allowing to happen; that's complete control. Not a sparrow drops dead without God causing it or allowing it. Nothing is outside His control.

Can we understand why one woman gets raped while cops nab another rapist before he reaches the next woman? Most often, no. However, Scripture assures us that God is in control working His ultimate will through it all.

God doesn't cause evil but evil (which includes wicked people as well as the devil and his demons) is under the authority of God. Not a single evil act can be committed without God allowing it. We can trust that whatever evil God allows there is some good purpose that will be worked out through it. The book of JOB gives an extended view of such.

[Jerry]

But Calvinism teaches God works out all that happens - and that is not Biblical. Being in control of all things is not the same thing as controlling all things. God is in total control - nothing can happen apart from His will; however, He does not make/cause moral evil to happen.

Also, foreknowledge is not the same thing as predestination. Foreknowledge is having all knowledge of everything before it happens - but knowing something will happen is not the same thing as causing that thing to happen.

[PreacherE]

Also, foreknowledge is not the same thing as predestination. Foreknowledge is having all knowledge of everything before it happens - but knowing something will happen is not the same thing as causing that thing to happen.

Perfectly said.