Sheep and Goats

[Revelation3:20]

Why is it so hard to believe that by the end of the Tribulation period (7 years) that the unsaved within certain nations will have died, and that there are only saved left in certain nations? It will certainly be the case with Israel - why not other nations?

It is hard to believe because it doesn't seem to fit with other scriptures.

Zechariah 14:2-5 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

It seems that all nations come up against Jerusalem to battle just before Christ returns in glory. I find it hard to believe a nation that had completely turned to God would do so.

[Invicta]

They are those that get saved during the Tribulation. Their true faith is shown by their works, which Matthew 25 refers to. That passage also shows how those who reject the Saviour during this time will also not help God's people.

Does this passage teach salvation by works?

[JerryNumbers]

I guess that's the debate, isn't it?

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

The pronoun is referring to the last noun, which makes it "nations". Individuals are not referred to here at all. You may assume this passage is referring to individuals, but where does it actually say that?

Seems they're trying to change the Bible, for it says 'nations,' not individual.' I feel assured if it meant individual's, it would say individual's. So they're debating this one against God Himself.

[His by Grace]

This is speaking of the second coming in Matthew 25: 31 because that is why we see the final separation of the sheep and goat's seen in verse 34. Any disagreement? I would say verse 46 is pretty clear here as well , quoted "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Right? Now, Zechariah 14 :2-5 You quoted it Rev. 3:20 but just missed it. Look in verse 5 at the end "...and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints WITH thee." Then go down and read verse 9 "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD and His name one." This has to be after we are Raptured away and He is "returning" to set up His final Kingdom! Unless you don't believe there is a Rapture where He comes "FOR" His saint's and then a Second Coming "WITH" His Saint's. Is that the prOBlem?? I'm not wanting to offend anyone or have a arguement insue but I would appreciate knowing if you believe in the Rapture and the Second Coming...OR ONLY the Second Coming? In Christ just Abiding, His by Grace

[Revelation3:20]

Seems they're trying to change the Bible, for it says 'nations,' not individual.' I feel assured if it meant individual's, it would say individual's. So they're debating this one against God Himself.

I am trying to rightly divide the word of truth as I hope we all are. Do you have an idea that explains Zechariah 14:2-5 which says all nations will come up to Jerusalem to battle just before Christ returns? Can you explain Revelation 13:7 which says the beast has power over all the nations to kill the "saints" during the great trib while reconciling that with the belief that there will be whole "nations" of believers when Christ returns? Can you explain Revelation 13:16-17 and Revelation 14:9-11 if whole nations of people are saved during the tribulation? If you can I am willing to listen, I don't have a corner on truth, but if you can't claiming others are trying to change the bible adds nothing to the discussion.

[JerryNumbers]

Does the verse say nation, or individual? I would think it means what it says, if we change nation to individual, we change the Bible, don't we?

[Jerry]

Sounds like Zechariah 14:1-5 is referring to events (ie. Armageddon) before Jesus judges the nations that are left. Many will die in the battle of Armageddon - perhaps all the wicked of some nations fought against the Lord and were wiped out by the point in time Matthew 25 describes, leaving only the righteous within some of those nations to be judged; therefore making those nations now "saved."

Either way, we know Assyria and Egypt will be saved along with Israel - so that is at least two "nations" that are saved.

[Revelation3:20]

Does the verse say nation, or individual? I would think it means what it says, if we change nation to individual, we change the Bible, don't we?

It certainly says that he gathers the nations, but I am unsure if by separating "them" he means the nations from each other or individuals out from the nations. It doesn't seem like he is speaking of nations when he says he separates them "as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats". Then when he speaks to them he says:

"Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me."

How could entire nations do all that? Everything there is only possible on an individual level. If whole nations were doing that during the great tribulation the beast would not have nearly the power the bible says he will.

I see a couple of possibilities. One, Matthew 25:31-46 is not speaking of the time directly following his initial return in glory but is speaking of a judgment following the rebellion at the end of the millennium. I think this is unlikely because Revelation 20:9 seems to say that rebellion ends quite abruptly in a consuming fire. Second Matthew 25:32 only means he gathers the nations and separates the saved individuals out of them. Third possibility, some way exists that reconciles everything that seems to go against whole nations turning to God during the tribulation and Jerry's idea is correct. I don't see how this could be so but if he would like to attempt to reconcile some of the scriptures I mentioned with his position I am willing to listen.

[Revelation3:20]

Either way, we know Assyria and Egypt will be saved along with Israel - so that is at least two "nations" that are saved.

I think the timing of those verses is unclear. I don't think that it will be during the tribulation. My best guess would be that it is during the millennial reign of Christ when many nations serve the Lord.

[His by Grace]

Revelation 3:20, The LORD isn't finished with me yet...Thank goodness! I do have answer's to read, study and pray over for yourself. There are some thing's I'm settled is clear in His Word concerning the Future Event's and some I don't grasp! About Rev.13:7 here is where I was taught when studying His Word to alway's read the verse before and the verse after the verse your looking into. I would like to read from Rev. 13:1 I'm not sure who the beast is but I know that his name"...upon his heads the name of blasphemy" ver.2 "the beast...and the dragon gave him his power and his seat and great authority." I have been taught the dragon = satan. ver.3"...ONE of the heads ...were wounded to death and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." ver.4""And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast,saying..." I assume your reading your KJV and I don't need me to write out all of the verse! Yea!! I have a note I wrote in my margin that the Beast = Antichrist!! Now ver. 5 "...and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." That's 3 and 1/2 years! Ver.6"...to blasphemy his name..." then your ver.7 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tonques ahd nations. BUT now thing's are much clearer when we read ver.8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are NOT written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." I have several scripture's that cause me to believe these aren't the "saved saints NOW" See Rev. 5:Ver.1-4 no man can open the book but then in ver.5 Christ is able = all the Title's of Christ are used here that's why I believe this is referring to Him but then ver.6 speaks of "...a Lamb as it had been slain..." keep reading then in ver.8 "...the Lamb ...golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of the saints" Now ver. 9"...for thou WAST SLAIN and HAST REDEEMED US to God BY THY BLOOD out of every kindred, and tonque, and people, and nations;" con't to ver. 10 "AND HAST MADE US UNTO OUR Gog kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." Ver. 11 leads to ver.12 "Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb THAT WAS SLAIN to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing" ver.13"...unto the Lamb for ever and ever." ver.14"...and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever." The Lamb is Christ and you can see His Kingdom has now been established! I won't keep going for tonight except to say keep reading and notice REV. 6 : verses 9, 10, 11 then Rev. 7: verses 3, 4, 5-8, 9 and 10, then 13 thru 17. About Rev. 13:16-17 and 14: 9-11 it's speaking of those left that recieve the mark NOT US! The Church isn't talked about since Rev, after chapter 3, but this may seem too weak as it did for me so read the rest of Revelation's. I'm persuaded the saved now aren't there until He bring's us "with" Him. See what the LORD reveals to you after studying all this and then I'll be glad to talk about when the LORD comes "for" His saint's Now and "with" His saint's back to the earth in the end. I'm sorry I don't know how to explain anything in "short-hand speech!" In Christ Abiding Daily, His by Grace

[Jerry]

Granted, it is possible that the Bible's reference to Egypt and Assyria being saved refer to the Millenium; however, we know that all remaining Israel gets saved at a certain point in the Tribulation - and all those that won't be turned to Christ (ie. the rebels) are killed - why can't other nations have the rebellious purged out during those seven years?

[Revelation3:20]

Revelation 3:20, The LORD isn't finished with me yet...Thank goodness! I do have answer's to read, study and pray over for yourself. There are some thing's I'm settled is clear in His Word concerning the Future Event's and some I don't grasp! About Rev.13:7 here is where I was taught when studying His Word to alway's read the verse before and the verse after the verse your looking into. I would like to read from Rev. 13:1 I'm not sure who the beast is but I know that his name"...upon his heads the name of blasphemy" ver.2 "the beast...and the dragon gave him his power and his seat and great authority." I have been taught the dragon = satan. ver.3"...ONE of the heads ...were wounded to death and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." ver.4""And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast,saying..." I assume your reading your KJV and I don't need me to write out all of the verse! Yea!! I have a note I wrote in my margin that the Beast = Antichrist!! Now ver. 5 "...and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." That's 3 and 1/2 years! Ver.6"...to blasphemy his name..." then your ver.7 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tonques ahd nations. BUT now thing's are much clearer when we read ver.8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are NOT written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." I have several scripture's that cause me to believe these aren't the "saved saints NOW" See Rev. 5:Ver.1-4 no man can open the book but then in ver.5 Christ is able = all the Title's of Christ are used here that's why I believe this is referring to Him but then ver.6 speaks of "...a Lamb as it had been slain..." keep reading then in ver.8 "...the Lamb ...golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of the saints" Now ver. 9"...for thou WAST SLAIN and HAST REDEEMED US to God BY THY BLOOD out of every kindred, and tonque, and people, and nations;" con't to ver. 10 "AND HAST MADE US UNTO OUR Gog kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." Ver. 11 leads to ver.12 "Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb THAT WAS SLAIN to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing" ver.13"...unto the Lamb for ever and ever." ver.14"...and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever." The Lamb is Christ and you can see His Kingdom has now been established! I won't keep going for tonight except to say keep reading and notice REV. 6 : verses 9, 10, 11 then Rev. 7: verses 3, 4, 5-8, 9 and 10, then 13 thru 17. About Rev. 13:16-17 and 14: 9-11 it's speaking of those left that recieve the mark NOT US! The Church isn't talked about since Rev, after chapter 3, but this may seem too weak as it did for me so read the rest of Revelation's. I'm persuaded the saved now aren't there until He bring's us "with" Him. See what the LORD reveals to you after studying all this and then I'll be glad to talk about when the LORD comes "for" His saint's Now and "with" His saint's back to the earth in the end. I'm sorry I don't know how to explain anything in "short-hand speech!" In Christ Abiding Daily, His by Grace

Ma'am,

I think you misunderstood my intent. I in no way meant church age believers will go through the trib, the saints present during the trib are those who believed after the rapture, prOBably only those who had never heard the truth. The rest will receive a strong delusion and believe a lie. When I mentioned Revelation 13:7 and the other verses and asked the Jerrys to explain them it wasn't because I think I don't understand them, I was just asking for what the two Jerrys thought of them in light of their position that whole nations will be saved during the great trib. Maybe I should have been more clear so I will post the verses and explain what I was asking a little more.

Speaking of the Beast:

"Revelation 13:77 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

"Revelation 13:16-17 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

"Revelation 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

The question I was posing by presenting these verses is where would these verses leave the notion that whole nations turn to God? We can see from those verses that the anti-christ has power over the who earth and every nation. That means those nations are not following the Lord to say the least. Then those verses say that he requires everyone to take a mark and worship him. Those people that do that are not ever going to turn to the Lord according to the bible, they are going to hell. I don't see whole nations turning to God during this time. Even most of the individuals that do refuse will prOBably be killed by the anti-christ before the return of Christ.

[Revelation3:20]

Granted, it is possible that the Bible's reference to Egypt and Assyria being saved refer to the Millenium; however, we know that all remaining Israel gets saved at a certain point in the Tribulation - and all those that won't be turned to Christ (ie. the rebels) are killed - why can't other nations have the rebellious purged out during those seven years?

I believe that with the exception of the 144,000 who are the firstfuits according to Revelation 14:4, Zechariah 12 shows that Israel as a whole does not turn to God until Christ returns in glory. Midway through the trib the beast starts a full scale persecution of the Jews and they realize he is not the messiah they thought he was but they do not fully turn to Christ till he returns and they see he was their messiah.

"Zechariah 12
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God. In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart."

[Invicta]

Jerry

Your posts will be much easier to read if you don't underline such posts.

As I am not a futurist, I do not agree with your interpretation. I believe that the Jews will be converted but before the Lord returns.

[His by Grace]

Invicta, You wrote above that you believe that the Jew's will be converted but before the Lord returns. This is confusing me. So then when His Word say's Israel, do you not believe that is literally Israel? Than who whould you say that "Israel" is referring to? Would you be willing to just list the verses that have convienced you that the Jew's are converted before the Lord return's? If you have some time to explain your view that would be nice yet understand life is busy. Just the verses would help me see where your coming from if your too busy to explain!! Thank You!!! In Christ, His by Grace