How do you feel about movies with magic and such?

Annie · April 6, 2011

Right.

So, you don't share Salyan's objections? Edited April 6, 2011 by Annie

HappyChristian · April 6, 2011

So, you don't agree with Salyan's objections?

No. My "right" was sarcastic. Just because her view of the fantasy genre does not match yours doesn't mean she misunderstands it. She understands her reasonings and what she believes God showed her regarding the genre, and the Chronicles in particular. Just because you don't agree with her doesn't mean she doesn't understand. SWIM?

Annie · April 6, 2011

No. My "right" was sarcastic. Just because her view of the fantasy genre does not match yours doesn't mean she misunderstands it. She understands her reasonings and what she believes God showed her regarding the genre, and the Chronicles in particular. Just because you don't agree with her doesn't mean she doesn't understand. SWIM?

It's not so much a person's "view" of the fantasy genre as it is an understanding of the bald, objective "definition" of that genre. And, in order to understand the definition, one must understand literary devices, symbolism, etc. These concepts aren't hard to understand--no formal education or training is required--but if one doesn't understand them and how they are used in literature, they aren't going to understand why "magic" is acceptable in the genre. They will cry, "It's so obvious that Scripture condemns CON...Look! A crystal ball! Pagan mythology! Astrology! False doctrine! False history" (which cannot even be true in FANTASTIC/FICTIONAL literature--by definition--because "fantasy" like CON has nothing to do with actual "history" or actual "religion")! Another problem is a misunderstanding of the sub-categories of fiction/fantasy--allegory being one of them. Salyan's post reveals a lack of understanding about the genre of fantasy, plot devices like symbolism, and the sub-genre of allegory.

I'm not knocking Salyan at all. I just think it's unwise to comment in depth (and so dogmatically) on something that one has not taken the time to understand. I would never advise Salyan to violate her conscience by reading the Narnia books; in fact, I'd recommend against it. If she believes that God has shown her that they are to be avoided, then she should avoid them. Edited April 6, 2011 by Annie

John81 · April 6, 2011

Perhaps what really needs to be addressed is whether or not fantasy is appropriate for Christians based upon the Word of God.

Seth Doty · April 7, 2011

Perhaps what really needs to be addressed is whether or not fantasy is appropriate for Christians based upon the Word of God.

There is nothing wrong with fantasy in and of itself. The bible is filled with allegories given to illustrate a truth. Take just this verse for a brief example: "Isaiah 55:12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands."

There only comes a problem when the fantasy is teaching something untrue, immoral, etc.

John81 · April 7, 2011

There is nothing wrong with fantasy in and of itself. The bible is filled with allegories given to illustrate a truth. Take just this verse for a brief example: "Isaiah 55:12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands."

There only comes a problem when the fantasy is teaching something untrue, immoral, etc.

There is a huge difference between a story written as an allegory and what makes up the bulk of fantasy literature. For the most part, fantasy literature is filled with untruth and immorality. The fantasy genre tends to deny or at least ignore God while creating escapist alternative realities, alternate to what God has given us.

Annie · April 7, 2011

There is a huge difference between a story written as an allegory and what makes up the bulk of fantasy literature. For the most part, fantasy literature is filled with untruth and immorality. The fantasy genre tends to deny or at least ignore God while creating escapist alternative realities, alternate to what God has given us.

Interesting POV, John. How would you apply this statement (if it applies) to the books we've been talking about?

Seth Doty · April 8, 2011

There is a huge difference between a story written as an allegory and what makes up the bulk of fantasy literature. For the most part, fantasy literature is filled with untruth and immorality. The fantasy genre tends to deny or at least ignore God while creating escapist alternative realities, alternate to what God has given us.

Well if you look at the last part of my previous post, I said: "There only comes a problem when the fantasy is teaching something untrue, immoral, etc." If something falls under that category then yes it is a problem. You don't want to bring that sort of thing into your mind. No work of fiction is completely pointless or meaningless, they all convey a meaning of some sort. People do not usually enjoy reading or doing totally "meaningless" things. There is a reason you don't see lots of people counting grains of sand on the beach just for fun. :wink

Even "escapist" fictional works mean something, sometimes they teach something good, and sometimes they teach something bad. Depending upon what they teach they are either wrong or just fine and even beneficial. Some fictional works certainly have immoral, anti-God, or hopeless under or over tones, while others would fit under the "Just, pure, lovely" category of things scripture tells us our minds should be thinking on. If any type of fantasy is wrong simply because it is not "reality" then one would wonder what the point would be of God allowing you to dream while your sleeping is since it really isn't something you can keep yourself from doing and I dare say most peoples dreams do not reflect reality the majority of the time. Fantasy is merely a sign of an active mind, as long as it does not venture toward things that are wrong it can be enjoyable and even healthy. I would not recommend the Narnia line of fiction first and most importantly because I do think it teaches untruths and secondly because I find the story line a lame and rather cliche work that doesn't even appeal to me as a story. I do enjoy reading fiction occasionally though, and though I don't read a lot of fiction today I read large amounts of it as a child, and I do feel it helped develop my mind considerably. For one thing it usually leads to an improved vocabulary, and for another thing lots of fiction of the right kind teaches the mind to see the big picture in many areas rather than only details and teaches certain moral truths. Ever wonder why the "good guys" almost always win in the end? It is because deep down people know that is the way things should be and how they always will be if given enough time even in reality. I think the type of fiction one enjoys is generally a indication of where your spirit is at and what direction it wants to go. Edited April 8, 2011 by Seth-Doty

Annie · April 8, 2011

I read large amounts of [fiction] as a child, and I do feel it helped develop my mind considerably. For one thing it usually leads to an improved vocabulary, and for another thing lots of fiction of the right kind teaches the mind to see the big picture in many areas rather than only details and teaches certain moral truths.

Couldn't agree more, Seth! My pastor calls this the development of the "moral imagination" of a child. As a mom, I try to fill my children's minds with stories which develop their moral imaginations in such a way that they recognize truth as they encounter it...and not only recognize it, but love, love, love it for its own beautiful sake. Good literature (starting with Scripture, of course) not only instills this love for truth, but also makes cheap imitations and error look hollow, ugly, and worthless in comparison. Good literature has the power to shape all of our affections in this way.

What specific books have you found to be good examples of what we're talking about? (I'm asking partly because my older two have read just about everything in the house--which is quite a task at our house, let me tell you), and I'm looking to buy them some new books soon. They are 12 and 11 years old. I was going to check out the Prydain Chronicles and the Tripod trilogy...both series I read and reread as a child. Any other ideas? Edited April 8, 2011 by Annie

HappyChristian · April 8, 2011

Well if you look at the last part of my previous post, I said: "There only comes a problem when the fantasy is teaching something untrue, immoral, etc." If something falls under that category then yes it is a problem. You don't want to bring that sort of thing into your mind. No work of fiction is completely pointless or meaningless, they all convey a meaning of some sort. People do not usually enjoy reading or doing totally "meaningless" things. There is a reason you don't see lots of people counting grains of sand on the beach just for fun. Even "escapist" fictional works mean something, sometimes they teach something good, and sometimes they teach something bad. Depending upon what they teach they are either wrong or just fine and even beneficial. Some fictional works certainly have immoral, anti-God, or hopeless under or over tones, while others would fit under the "Just, pure, lovely" category of things scripture tells us our minds should be thinking on. If any type of fantasy is wrong simply because it is not "reality" then one would wonder what the point would be of God allowing you to dream while your sleeping is since it really isn't something you can keep yourself from doing and I dare say most peoples dreams do not reflect reality the majority of the time. Fantasy is merely a sign of an active mind, as long as it does not venture toward things that are wrong it can be enjoyable and even healthy. I would not recommend the Narnia line of fiction first and most importantly because I do think it teaches untruths and secondly because I find the story line a lame and rather cliche work that doesn't even appeal to me as a story. I do enjoy reading fiction occasionally though, and though I don't read a lot of fiction today I read large amounts of it as a child, and I do feel it helped develop my mind considerably. For one thing it usually leads to an improved vocabulary, and for another thing lots of fiction of the right kind teaches the mind to see the big picture in many areas rather than only details and teaches certain moral truths. Ever wonder why the "good guys" almost always win in the end? It is because deep down people know that is the way things should be and how they always will be if given enough time even in reality. I think the type of fiction one enjoys is generally a indication of where your spirit is at and what direction it wants to go.

:goodpost:

Salyan · April 8, 2011

[i'm not knocking Salyan at all. I just think it's unwise to comment in depth (and so dogmatically) on something that one has not taken the time to understand. I would never advise Salyan to violate her conscience by reading the Narnia books; in fact, I'd recommend against it. If she believes that God has shown her that they are to be avoided, then she should avoid them.

Oops! I didn't realize this conversation was still going on.

Just a note I'd like to add - it is possible that I am totally misunderstanding the genre of fantasy. But (and I'm trying not to be too defensive here :icon_smile:

) if I am, it would not be for lack of trying. You see, me, in myself -- I LOVE fantasy. I grew up devouring fiction and every fantasy book I could get my hands on. I read CON & LOTR more times than I could ever count. I was sooo looking forward to Prince Caspian (the new movie) -- when God convicted me that it was not right to indulge in fantasy that contradicted the rules of His world and involved magic. So please don't say that I have not taken the time to understand it! I believe that I have earned the right to comment in depth on something that I was so intimately familiar with for so many years. (okay, that was defensive :frog:

)

One thing I'd like to add: the 'good magic' of CON may not be the same as the 'bad magic,' and Bacchus may not be same as the Roman Bacchus -- but it is a poor practice of separation that uses evil names for good purposes.

Brother Rick · April 8, 2011

I appreciate this conversation; I'm on the fence on this issue. I read fantasy from time to time, and don't feel convicted about it - that doesn't mean it's not wrong though. The rule of thumb I go by is the closer the magic in the book is to sorcery and real demonism the less I want anything to do with the story. Also, there's the fruit of the books to consider: those two reasons are why I have nothing to do with the Harry Potter books.

What I like about the fantasy genre is that fact that there isn't any profanity in it, for the most part. I love thrillers, but it's just wrong to read a book that has 600 pages and you know that there is about two cuss words a page - that's 1,200 cuss words.

Annie · April 8, 2011

Oops! I didn't realize this conversation was still going on.

Just a note I'd like to add - it is possible that I am totally misunderstanding the genre of fantasy. But (and I'm trying not to be too defensive here ) if I am, it would not be for lack of trying. You see, me, in myself -- I LOVE fantasy. I grew up devouring fiction and every fantasy book I could get my hands on. I read CON & LOTR more times than I could ever count. I was sooo looking forward to Prince Caspian (the new movie) -- when God convicted me that it was not right to indulge in fantasy that contradicted the rules of His world and involved magic. So please don't say that I have not taken the time to understand it! I believe that I have earned the right to comment in depth on something that I was so intimately familiar with for so many years. (okay, that was defensive )

One thing I'd like to add: the 'good magic' of CON may not be the same as the 'bad magic,' and Bacchus may not be same as the Roman Bacchus -- but it is a poor practice of separation that uses evil names for good purposes.

Thanks for clarifying, salyan. I have no intention of trying to persuade you to revisit this subject if it offends your conscience. But I still contend that your statements here reveal that you cannot have a clear understanding of what fantasy is (by definition). You say that fantasy "contradicts the rules of His world" and that it "involves (prohibited?) magic." For what reason do you say these things?

Salyan · April 8, 2011

Okay, first of all...
What is fantasy? My definition has always been 'fictional stories that take place in a fictional world unrelated to our own.' This distinguishes it from true-to-life fiction and historical fiction. It also makes it a cousin of sci-fi, although I think nowadays we tend to separate fantasy into 'dragons, knights & magic' and sci-fi is futuristic - aliens, spaceships and other planets. Does this match your definition?

(and I'm sorry for my overly-hot response. I was actually going to edit that post... )

HappyChristian · April 8, 2011

Okay, first of all...
What is fantasy? My definition has always been 'fictional stories that take place in a fictional world unrelated to our own.' This distinguishes it from true-to-life fiction and historical fiction. It also makes it a cousin of sci-fi, although I think nowadays we tend to separate fantasy into 'dragons, knights & magic' and sci-fi is futuristic - aliens, spaceships and other planets. Does this match your definition?

(and I'm sorry for my overly-hot response. I was actually going to edit that post... )

salyan, you weren't over-hot, so don't sweat it ( :icon_mrgreen:

). The fantasy genre actually is defined by using magic and the supernatural as part of the plot. At times, the setting is a different planet or an alternative/parallel world. The sci-fi genre doesn't, by definition, use magic or the supernatural so much as it uses the fantastic (many times the setting can be other planets or alternative/parallel worlds, but not with magic).