Is Forgiveness Conditional?

[Calvary]

:roll:

I guess it didn't matter what I said anyways.

God bless,

Calvary.

[chev1958]

Well, then, Calvary, maybe you should go further in your explanation. It seems to me several people responded to your two questions; if those were not what you were looking for, then give us the answers you were looking for.

Oh, and welcome back. You've been gone a while.

Mitch

[Jerry]

I moved your post to our Moved Posts area for several reasons:

1) this website has clearly stated over and over that we believe that repentance is necessary to salvation - you are publicly contradicting that again, even after it has been clearly refuted in the past, and stated it was not up for debate.

2) You have stated that confessing Christ to man is how we get saved, which is a total misrepresentation or misunderstanding of Romans 10:9-10. It is confessing (ie. agreeing with or being of one mind with, which is what the word literally means) GOD HIMSELF about what He says about salvation/Saviour that saves us, not agreeing with man or confessing before man. A true believer is saved before he ever speaks another word to anyone else. Yes, it should be followed by witnessing - but our witnessing (and the courage/boldness to do so) is dependant upon our walk with the Lord (and being filled with His Spirit) - even many Christians have faltered at various times in this area - that does not mean they are not saved, or that they are not saved UNTIL they "confess" to others.

[Calvary]

Well I will look at the answers and reply.

But I was referring to what is now obvious of a post I made that wasn't allowed to stand.

Jerry, your opinion of Romans 10 is just that. To flatly and dogmatically claim an exclusive understanding of that pasage to the exlusion of any other is fairly presumptious brother.

As far as "again" I can't recall ever posting on this topic before.

However I'll take a gander, though I imagine you'll back peddle. Most of you should.


Jerry you stated:

I had to repent of my breaking of God's law, of going my own way, of rebelling against God. And the Bible also lists specific sins that need to be repented of, such as idolatry, immorality (adultery and fornication), covetousness, blasphemy, stealing, drunkenness, murder, sorcery, involvement in the occult or false religion, dead works (ie. works with the motivation of earning my way to Heaven), trusting in anything else or anyone else other than Jesus to save us.

Am I to understand that when you repented of "breaking God's laws" that you began then to keep them? On the basis of no longer breaking the laws of God did He grant you salvation?

I am not trying to be rude or sarcastic, I am in all honesty asking you to look at what you're saying and tell me if I am coming to the wrong conclusions.

Did you stop going your "own way" and thereby recieve God's grace based upon that action you took?

Obedience is the opposite of rebellion. Am I therefore to conclude that by your obedience to God He saved you.

Again, I am not trying to bait you as much as I am asking you Jerry if I am wrong in coming to these conclusion based upon what you posted. Those are your words.

Are you therefore telling me that based upon what you did, plus your faith you got saved?

Listen, yoou and most everyone here would run off a 7th Day Adventist, a Catholic and any Church of Christ memeber for holding to that same position. And rightly so.

I wouldn't hold to any position no matter who's it was if I was wrong. Repentance is not conditional for salvation, belief is.

You believed that Christ was your solution to your sin problem. Whether or not you think you turned from law breaking (which in and of itself is a laugh as we all continue to break God's laws) is irrevelant. You could turn from law breaking all you like (and I'm not even sure what that could entail to be honest) the Lord did not save you because you stopped being rebellious. He saved you the moment you believed. Period.

And easy beleivism has nothing to do with it, I am with you on that methodology being straight from the pit of hell.


Stop blaspheming, stop being drunk, stop murdering, stop the sorcery, stop being involved in the occult, leave your false religion (does that mean the Catholic who gets saved can't really be saved unless they leave their church?)stop having dead works...

I pray that I am not the only one reading this thread that sees the problems with that statement.

Open up your eyes beloved. Christ saved you simply because you believed He could. And He did. Period.



Looking back on my statements of confessing Christ before men, I agree I should re word it better. I don't think I was making myself clear. Jerry you are right, if I made you think that witnessing was contingent for salvation then I was wrong in the way I expressed myself. But what I did say about Romans 10 and also the passage in Luke and Peter will stand up. That is confession TO men about God. Though I apologize if I made it sound that our salvation is dependent upon that action. It is not.

And neither was stopping drinking or fornicating or any other sin you might have dropped.

God bless,

Calvary

[Bakershalfdozen]

Thank you for further explaining, Calvary. I admit I was wondering if you were stating that witnessing was necessary for salvation.

[Kubel]

Jerry-

[hypothetical]

I am unsaved, and am married. I decide to get a divorce. Then I marry another woman. We are living together. I go to church and my heart is receptive to the gospel...

[/hypothetical]

Do you believe that I cannot get saved until I cut off the relationship with my new wife?

[Calvary]

Well, I was wondering about a response. I guess I'll stand corrected by your silence.

God bless,
Calvary

[Jerry]

Did you ever stop to think that someone else may be limited in their time on a specific day? Yesterday was such a day - today is likewise.

Repentance is NOT an action - it is a change of mind which will result in a change of conduct. Repentance occurs in the heart first before there are ever any steps taken outwardly - HOWEVER, true repentance WILL result in changed conduct. It is changing your mind about your sin and not desiring it the same way you did before you turned to Christ.

Obedience is the opposite of rebellion. Am I therefore to conclude that by your obedience to God He saved you.

By obeying the Gospel I was saved.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

I changed my mind about what I previously believed about going to Heaven (ie. good works), realizing that my sins separated me from God and were deserving of judgment, that there were specific sins outright that God wanted me to turn from (such as those of the ten commandments I had broken), then I turned to the Saviour to forgive me of those sins.

[Calvary]

Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH:



Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, WHICH WE PREACH;



Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.



Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit THROUGH FAITH.

Jerry I hate to tell you this, you sound exactly like a Cambellite I debated for some time and those verses were his basis for a works salvation.

I'll tell you what. I never heard of Jesus or Heaven or Hell or anything else that had to do with the Bible until I was 28 years old.
So I didn't have to "change my mind about Jesus" since I didn't have any mind about him. I wasn't trying to get to heaven or hell as far as that was concerned.

But I heard the gospel. I responded to it and I believed that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. He died for my sins, and I through faith accepted that fact and therby was given eternal life. I didn't have to stop smoking to get saved. I stopped smoking because I was saved. I didn't have to stop cussing to get saved. I stopped because I did get saved.

Just like the Bible says.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, AFTER THAT YOU HEARD THE WORD OF TRUTH, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Obeying the gospel is trusting the finished work of Christ.

Now its funny that you want repentance to be a non action, but repentance is a change of behaviour, not just in the mind which will produce a change of behaviour. In fact true Biblical repentance involves the will of man, the emotions (the heart) and the intellect. Repentance is dependent upon all three of these before it will be true Biblical repentance.

Repentance is produced by God as a divine gift to man. We don't muster it up and then expect the Lord to act upon our changed lives.

2 Timothy 2:25 - IF GOD PERADVENTURE WILL GIVE THEM REPENTANCE.

When Jonah preached the word of truth what happened? The Ninivites heard the word, they believed the word, THEN they turned to God. Repentance was and is a fruit of the gospel message. It does not begin with man.


The word repentance is found a mere 5 times in the Pauline epistles.

Romans 2 is directed to the Jew.
Romans 11 as well.
2 Corinthians 7 (twice) is directed to an already saved individual.
And 2 Timothy is a hope it will happen.

Paul did not require repentance prior to salvation. He knew that it was a gift of God to a man who believes the gospel. Faith and repentance are not two intertwined doctrines. One is not dependent upon the other.

Hmm, this repentance that I read about on this board sounds more like a works plus faith setup. Although you will of course insist that it is not.
A few posts ago more than one poerson talked about what they did to get saved. Now, as I suspected the back peddle is on. Your own words were, I stopped rebelling against God and stopped breaking his laws.

Oh brother! I bow out with grace on this thread. It will do no good to continue belaboring the point.

And I never doubted your salvation. I just doubt you understand the ramifications of what you said.

God bless.
Calvary.

[Jerry]

Paul did not require repentance prior to salvation. He knew that it was a gift of God to a man who believes the gospel. Faith and repentance are not two intertwined doctrines. One is not dependent upon the other.

I think we would call that WRONGLY-DIVIDING the Word of truth, setting one part against another. Paul stated this:

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

And this:

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Repentance is not a work - but true repentance will result in works.

Go argue with God and His Word if you'd like, but don't come on here teaching false doctrine.

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

A saved person can't perish - these verses are commands to the lost - to repent and turn to Jesus Christ.

Hmm, this repentance that I read about on this board sounds more like a works plus faith setup. Although you will of course insist that it is not.

Well, if you are not like-minded, you could always find another message board...

[JJJ4given]

My understanding of this has been that God is the only one in the place to judge people. What is forgiveness? It comes from the idea of someone owing a debt and having that debt removed. We owe a debt for our sins. Only God can administer judgement for what we've done. Therefore, only God(Christ) can remove the debt. And only God can forgive sins from his judgement. So does the Bible teach not holding things against others?

Romans 12:17-21

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

So are we to hold a debt(I am not speaking monetarily) to any man? Clearly this is not what the gospel teaches. God is the only one in the place of judgement so why don't we leave that in God's hands where it belongs and forgive all who trespass us. We don't have to tell them we forgive them to forgive them. If they ask us for forgiveness then we express it but forgiveness is not holding that debt over their head. It's forgetting the wrong they've done and leaving it in God's hands.

[Madeline]

The bible warns us of not being able forgive others (Matt. 6:14,15; 18:35; Acts 8:22-23; Heb. 12:15; Col. 3:19; James 3:14). And that we are to replace our bitterness with kindness, love and forgiveness (Lev. 19:18; Eph 4:31-32; 1 Pet. 4:8). Biterness and unforgiveness left unchecked can lead to outward murmuring and complaining (Job. 7:11), so how do we deal with this? The scripture tells us let not the sun go down upon our wrath, forgive in prayer, and forgive as Christ forgave us, how do we deal with unforgiveness? (Matt. 5:23,24; Mk. 11:25; Rom. 8:28; 12:2; Eph. 4:23,26-27; Phil. 3:13; Col. 3:13). We are also told that forgiveness must be unconditional on our part (Matt. 18:21-2;2; Mk. 11:25,6; Lk. 17:3,4; Col. 3:12,13; Gal. 6:1). True forgiveness 'from the heart' of a regenerate person is one of the signs of genuine salvation and conversion (cf. Eph. 4:32). Saved people are both forgiven and forgiving. Unforgiving people prove that they have never been born of God.

Love,
Madeline

[2 TIm 2:15]

How does one reconcile Matthew 18:15-17 in the realm of forgiveness except to call it reconciliation or church discipline?

Mat 6:14

Mat 6:15

Eph 4:32

How has God forgiven you?

1Jo 1:9

Luk 17:3

Forgiveness sounds conditional in the sense of scripture as recorded in Luke 17:3.

Psalm 82:2-3 has me wondering whether we do justice if we overlook the wrongs unrepentent people do.

You need to see the context between the verses in Matthew and the one in Ephesians. In Matthew, Jesus was speaking to the Jewish people and not the church. The Church and Israel being separate is an important distinction to make. Also, when that passage was spoken, the Jews were still under the law this is why Jesus made a condition to FORGIVE in order to be FORGIVEN. In the Ephesians passage Jesus had already died was buried and rose from the dead. The context here is the church in Ephesus which is where the Church today takes its doctrine from. You are commanded to FORGIVE since you have already been FORGIVEN due to Christ dying on the cross to pay for your sins. You are now under grace but do not use grace as a license to sin.

THe Luke passage applies to brotherly love and relationships between each other, not with God. This has nothing to do with salvation.
the 1 John 1:9 passage states that if we we confess our sins GOd cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness. This is when we, as lost sinners realise that we are sinners before a Holy God and turn to him and He cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness. FOr the saved person, this is when we sin and confess it and turn from it and God forgives us and fellowship with Him is restored. In both cases we are cleansed and have a clear conscience.

God Bless

[heartstrings]

Steven cried "father forgive them" as he was being stoned to death. But why did Paul say "the Lord reward him according to his works" when referring to Alexander the Coppersmith?

[trell]

I always assume, unless scripture indicates otherwise, that God's people are doing right.
Stephen was right in saying "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge." In 7:55 and 56 of Acts, just before the stoning, the Bible says
But he {Stephen}, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
We know (from Matt 26:64, Mark 12:36, 14:62, Luke 20:42, 22:69, Acts 2:34, Eph 1:20, Col 3:1, Heb 1:3, 8:1, 10:12 and 12:2) that Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of God, yet Stephen saw him standing. In the culture of the day, when someone stood they were ready to take action. Jesus saw his man Stephen taking a stand, and Jesus was ready to take action to prevent it. This is why Stephen said lay not this sin to their charge. Saul, later Paul, would have borne the brunt of this rightous wrath.

When Paul was dealing with Alexander in II Tim 4, the Bible says

Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words. At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.

I do not know that the Lord rewarding someone according to their works is a bad thing. I think it is good and proper. This is different that laying a sin to their charge.