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JJJ4given

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  1. Hello InTruth. Thanks for joining the discussion. Just wanted to elaborate a little more on what the Holy Ghost has revealed to me on these verses. There are certainly consequences for all of our actions, some temporary, some permanent. Good rewards for a life of faith, and no reward for a life of carnality. I'll give you a bit of the background on Hebrews that might help to expand the understanding of this book. Imagine you are part of a congregation in the first century that consists mostly of Hebrews. You are also a Hebrew. You remember how before the new covenant came(the new testament assembly) you would meet at the synagogue where the priests performed the sacrifices. There was elaborate furniture and nice food at the feasts. You remember how you were taught as a child that taking part in the (old) covenant how there were promises of Israel inheriting and ruling the earth. There were other promises too. But you could only get in on those promises if you kept the feasts and performed the Mosaic sacrifices and laws. Also, early on in your life as a Jew, you had repented and trusted that God would provide a sacrifice for your sins. Later in your life when you heard about how Jesus the Christ had died on the cross and rose again, your heart had leaped for joy and the Spirit in you bare witness that it was the will of God. However, now you are no longer part of that old covenant since you haven't been to the synagogue in several years. So those promises no longer apply to you. But in the new covenant you are now meeting in caves and attics. You are meeting in discretion because the sanhedron in concord with the Roman government has declared Christianity to be illegal. In fact, there have been several of the sisters and brethren in your assembly who have been executed. There are also many who have quit and left for a more comfortable life. In fact, there are many complaining and talking about how things used to be in the synagogue worship. There is also fear that has crept in. There are some who are bitter because it was their own family members who were executed. So things aren't going too well. But you recall those who met with Jesus and how he told them that they could inherit the kingdom of God if they kept Christ's commandments. Christ commanded them in all things and in the new covenant worship: the New Testament church. So desiring to please God and Christ, you made sure to get baptized and take part in serving the congregation the Lord has placed you in. But even now they are talking about disbanding and going back to the synagogue. With this background, now read Hebrews and you may be able to better appreciate what the Holy Ghost was dealing with. All the references to the Old Testament are intended for a well-learned Hebrew audience. God bless!
  2. Don't know why you're sorry, seeing we agree on this point(no Holy Spirit- no salvation). If you read carefully what I said, I was making the point that Saul was saved before and after the Holy Ghost came onto him and, in the same fashion, departed from him. The Holy Ghost coming on someone to grant them the ability to perform an otherwise impossible task is very different from the Holy Ghost indwelling the believer. Like you, I would agree that the Holy Ghost isn't going to come onto a non-believer. If you wish to examine this more, read about the guy who made the ark of the covenant(Exodus 31). The Spirit of God filled him for the purpose of having the supernatural ability to make all of the furniture and the ark of the covenant exactly as God would have them do. However, I would disagree with you that Saul lost his eternal life just because the Holy Spirit departed from him, taking away his ability to prophesy. He may have done some bad things that have other temporary and permanent consequences; but what kind of eternal life is not eternal? The scriptures did not make any indication that his eternity would be with the non-believer, so why make such supposition?
  3. Robycop, Let's try this again. -We both agree that Hebrews 6 is dealing with believers. It is dealing with people who are saved. -However, you are contending that it is implying a loss of eternal life. You have yet to provide any scriptural backing with the verses surrounding Hebrews 6 to prove your case. -I am contending that Hebrews 6, is to be taken in context with the whole book(Hebrews). Since the whole book is dealing again and again with a walk of faith in the new covenant, and brings up examples that deal with a loss of inheritance as the consequence for not doing so, then I am expounding that Hebrews 6 maintains the general theme of the book and does not go off on some tangent. I have gone on to give just a small fraction of the evidence backing my position found all throughout Hebrews. Not only does Hebrews not mention eternal life through the whole book; it also goes on to mention several examples of inheritance being lost(Esau losing the birthright, fathers correcting their children: Hebrews 12:9 and 10 "but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.") as well as using the word inheritance speaking of Abraham and his walk of faith(Hebrews 11:8) and furthermore a much more direct assertion of this point in Hebrews 9:15 "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which were called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." Not eternal life, brother: eternal inheritance. The Holy Ghost didn't make any mistake in his usage of words.
  4. Robycop, That's just peachy that you believe all those things. However, if you wish to have others believe the same as you, then please provide some sort of evidence in the scriptures to make a case for what you believe. I have provided Hebrews 12 dealing with Esau as clear evidence that Hebrews 6 is contextually dealing with inheritance and not eternal life. Can you find something in Hebrews closer to Hebrews 6 that would show to the contrariwise? If not, then I believe this discussion is pretty well come to a finale. As always, I invite you or anyone else for that matter to prove me wrong with scriptural evidence and I will reconsider my position.
  5. Concerning Saul, that verse needs to be understood contextually with 1 Samuel 10:6-10. Samuel told Saul that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon him and he would prophesy as the prophets. Nothing to do with salvation, brother. If it wasn't referring to salvation in 1 Samuel 10:6-10, then it certainly wasn't referring to a loss of salvation in 1 Samuel 16:14. Context is important. Suppose you would say 1 Samuel 10 was referring to salvation. This would make you a Calvinist also since Samuel would then be telling Saul that he's going to get saved and how it's going to happen. What choice does Saul have in the matter then? However, if he was already saved, and if this is referring to some special abilities being conferred upon him by the Spirit of the Lord being upon him, and later departing from him, then this is certainly not dealing with salvation. Concerning Judas, it was Christ who gave them all the ability to cast out devils. He told them to do so in his name. Luke 11:20 is not saying someone needs the Holy Ghost in them to cast out devils. That would be a far stretch from that verse. Also, having the authority to cast out devils is no indication of one's own heart condition. I see no verse that would support that.
  6. Missionary Baptists are not necessarily Calvinists, though there are some that call themselves such that are Calvinist. To prove my point, I will take a website of a Missionary Baptist church and quote them. This is not one I know or belong to by the way, just did a google and clicked the first one: http://pluto.matrix49.com/15361/?subpag ... aith.shtml VIII-THE GRACE OF REGENERATION We believe that in order to be saved, sinners must be regenerated or born again (John 3:3, 6-7; I Cor. 2:14; II Cor. 5:17; Tit. 3:5); that regeneration consists in giving a holy disposition to the mind (Deut. 30:6; Jer. 24:7; Ezek. 36:26; Gal 5:6; I John 4:7); that it is effected in a manner above our comprehension by the power of the Holy Spirit, in connection with divine truth (Ps. 119:50; Prov. 1:23; John 17:20; I Cor. 4:15; James 1:16; I Peter 1:23-25), so as to secure our voluntary obedience to the gospel (Ps. 110:3; John6:44-45, 65; II Cor. 10:5; Eph 1:17-20; I Peter 1:22-25); and that its proper evidence appears in the holy fruits of repentance (Acts 5:31; II Tim. 2:24-25), faith (John 6:29; Acts 18:27; Phil. 1:29; Col. 2:12; I Peter 1:21) and newness of life (Rom 6:4; I Cor. 6:9-11; I Peter 4:1-4). (Highlights are mine) Some people I know involved with the ABA have told me that it is approximately 70% of those who are part of the ABA that are calvinist. So certainly not sweeping rule.
  7. King Saul went to hell? Can you validate that theory with scriptures? Also, can you confirm for me that Judas Iscariot was a partaker of the Holy Ghost? Thanks!
  8. Let me be more clear. I believe fully that eternal life is ETERNAL. However, I do not believe Hebrews 6:4-6, or the book of Hebrews, for that matter, is dealing with eternal life. I believe it is addressed to those who ALREADY have eternal life. Furthermore, this is not signifying a loss of eternal life, but a loss of INHERITANCE. Let's look further in the book to see if this holds true. We go on to read in chapter 12 about Esau who "for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears." Did it say Esau lost his eternal life? IT WASN'T TALKING ABOUT ETERNAL LIFE!!! It's talking about inheritance. You can lose what God would have for you as an inheritance, and not be able to gain that back. This does not mean you lost your eternal life. There will be plenty who will get no reward/inheritance when they get to the Bema seat. Their walk of faith here will determine whether they do or not. And at that time don't plan on God just changing his mind("renewed unto repentance").
  9. You are going under the assumption that Hebrews 6:4-6 is referring to eternal life. However, there is no indication of that. Your view of this passage especially loses ground when taking into consideration that Hebrews does not even talk about eternal life, not just in chapter 6, but through the whole book! Secondly, the pronouns are plural(i.e. they, them, their, etc.). That is significant since the book of Hebrews is addressing Hebrews in Christ's New Testament church who are considering going back to the old covenant worship instead. If they had fallen away and returned to the old, how could they continue to take part in the new covenant that Christ started? If that church that consisted of Hebrews went back to the synagogue, to the old, how could they receive the blessings of the new and reform as a church after disbanding to return to the old?
  10. I have no problem with people in their own prayers asking God what they should give and doing that. However, proclaiming how much you will give or saying how much you did give; making promises before men is not prudent and is certainly discouraged in the scriptures. Keep it between you and God and he will deal with whom is faithful accordingly. I would much rather do something for the Lord and have it be only known by God, then to have it be known publicly and receive the praises of men. "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what they right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. " -Jesus Christ our Lord
  11. The idea of not making promises is as applicable today as it was in the NT. First, let's examine James again: But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation. Jesus Christ even said: Matthew 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. The consequence is that you could "fall into condemnation." You could end up breaking your word and harming the testimony of Christ. You don't know the future any more than Paul or James didn't know the future so making promises is something that should not be done. We can see this same principal applied in Paul's life in 2nd Corinthians.
  12. Take heed that ye do not your alms before men to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what they right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation. Neither by any other oath... seems we are to do a lot more doing and a lot less promising. Just a thought...
  13. 9 Missionaries and we require them to come in and present to us where they stand, we require a doctrinal statement from their sending church, and we pray as a congregation about who we will support and who we won't support. We also require them to send letters and to visit us every couple of years to report what they are doing. We're a church of about 55 people. We do not use any of these programs. I guess we are just a tad old fashion. :smile
  14. First, I must say, "wow". Second, let's look at what the scriptures teach: Acts 2:41-42 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 42
  15. Are you renouncing those reformed views you held onto? That would be cool. :clap:
  16. No where did I discredit Hebrews. I simply was making some very key points about it that people ignor while holding to their doctrine of the Nicolaitans. You say a pastor is in authority but we say Christ is. Jesus clearly says that a pastor is NOT: Mark 10:42-45 42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. So, Jerry, how is it among you? Because, "so shall it not be among you". Take this one up with Jesus. The scriptures do not contradict themselves. I would say that a pastor does lead, but it is by example. Not with a rod. And those in rule that it speaks of, I believe, are the same being spoken of in 1 Timothy 5. Hence the plurality in both passages, yet the singular in Christ's statement in Mark 10.
  17. It's no wonder that to the world most baptist churches look just like any other social gathering they see. You have people following an earthly leadership. What kind of amazing affect would it have if the world saw a called out people following an invisible leadership, not seen with the physical eyes yet in perfect unity? They would certainly be curious and want to know this Jesus. What if they saw the greatest amongst us not in a place of lordship, but in a place of servanthood to those who are lesser in abilities? It sure would make them say, "We have never seen it as such." It may actually make them wonder just what's going on and maybe do some searching to find out. Mark 10:42-44 42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. That word "minister" means a servant or waiter. It comes from a word which means "to run on errands". In Hebrews we see a people who were returning back to judiasm and we see how harsh Paul had to deal with them for such. He did his best to place a fear in them that would turn them to the right direction. And in a situation like they were in, those things were necessary as they did not fully consider the end result of the direction they were heading. However, when they got to a place of spiritual maturity to see that Christ is better than those shadows of the new(assuming they changed their resolve), then fear was no longer necessary or useful for them. 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. Also, it is worth noting that the third person plural is what is used when referring to the party in leadership. Not third person singular. It is not in direct reference to their pastor but in reference to those immature brothers and sisters submitting to those who had been in the faith some time("who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow,"), and had some spirituality about them. However, the end result is that they follow Christ and his direction: Hebrews 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. Hebrews 13:20-21 20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
  18. Let your speech be seasoned with salt, not with jalepenos, Jerry. :fireball: How about we examine this from the scriptures and not what you've been fed in Bible college. According to hermeneutics, passages which are closer have a much stronger bearing then passages which are further away. Also, according to common sense, if a word is used in a certain way, then appearances of that same word right after will be within the same definition as before. Let's look at the words: 1 Timothy 5:1
  19. To add to that, I don't believe a pastor was established to be a babysitter or sherriff in Christ's church. However, as a member of a church he is just as responsible, as any other member, to confront someone(in meekness and love) who is in that church and in sin, according to the method prescribed by Christ: Matt. 18:15-17 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican. Too often we place too much burden on the pastor to fix the problems when we are very much an equal part of that congregation and just as responsible to confront sin and keep the church in right doctrine. Also, Christ didn't commission just one in that first NT church(Matt. 28:28). He commissioned all of them. The main responsibility of a pastor is that of food service(in a spiritual sense). They are responsible for feeding Christ's sheep the food which Christ gives them to distribute. John 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jona, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. And as they feed us in the spiritual things, we are responsible to feed them in the carnal things. 1 Cor. 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
  20. Amen to Jerry8081752! Man, we must be reading the same book: The Scriptures. There is only one head of Christ's church and that is Christ. Anything else being the head and it is simply an abomination. In fact, Christ expresses clear hatred for the doctrine of having someone else then him as the head of his church: Rev. 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. Rev. 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Nico=victor laitan=people The idea conveyed is something we see predominant in catholicism, protestantism, and even in some so called baptist churches. The only thing keeping that church at Ephesus from having the presence of God removed from their midst("and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent") was their similar detest for this doctrine of the Nicolaitans. They may have grown cold and indifferent, but they still had not replaced Christ as their head with some earthly superior. A pastor certainly does have a place in Christ's NT church but his place is that of servitude. Luke 22:25-26 25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. On the other side of glory God will exalt those who lower themselves to such a state within Christ's NT church: Matt. 23:11-12 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. But here and now it is a life of selfless servitude. I believe that some of the greatest messages Christ gave that first NT church were done through example: John 13 5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples? feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. 6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? 7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. 11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. 12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? 13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another?s feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. 16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. That is also what a pastor does is sets an example of a true christian walk with his own life. I see the way Christ always did it was he would say "Follow me" and then he would walk away. A pastor's constant message is to "Follow Christ". Christ, while exemplifying the position of a pastor, did not pressure people into doing things. He simply told them what was right and left them to choose for themselves. Alright; enough blabbering from me for tonight. It's getting pretty late.
  21. Quite the heated debate. I would have to agree with Jerry's rendition of Gen. 10 after an honest examination. There were some who seemed to be indicating that they thought there was no seas during the time of Genesis, however, that would not coincide with these verses: Gen 1:21-23 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. I believe that before the flood there was one continent: Gen 1:9, 10 9
  22. First, I want to say that I believe there is a place of eternal damnation for non-believers and for satan and those angels that followed him. Second, I believe it is very important that we examine each of the verses regarding "hell" based upon what greek word is being used(gehenna vs. hades). Gehenna was a dump outside of Jerusalem while hades was a clear reference to a place of eternal torments. Here is one passage that makes pretty clear of this: Luke 16 19
  23. The requirement was clearly first given by John the Baptist for being baptized. Matt. 3:6-8 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. 7
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