John 5:3-4 Is it Scripture?

[John81]

Iam not complaining but wonder why I went from a senior member with around 400 post to just a member with under three hundred post. Just wondering.

God Bless
John

Some (all?) of us lost posts when the transfer was made to this new forum. I lost several hundred posts myself and I believe others lost even more.

[kevinmiller]

Hi Kevin. The "guys like you" refers to the fact that you do not believe that any particular Bible is the complete and 100% true words of God. Instead you recommend a ballpark approximation by listing your 2 or 3 personal favorites (even though these differ among themselves both in text and meaning in many verses), and then end up telling us that No translation is perfect and that we must go to "the Hebrew and the Greek", even though you never quite get around to identifying for us EXACTLY which Hebrew and Greek you are talking about.

Again, you make an assumption about my character. I do not hold the position that no particular Bible is the complete Word of God. Where is the quote for that?
My two or three personal favorites??? You offend me.
Where did I say we must go to the Greek and Hebrew? Quotes?
Where are the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts?
http://www.logos.com/products/details/1785 Masoretic Text
http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/TR1550MR Stephen's Textus Receptus
http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/ELZEVIR Elzevir Textus Receptus
http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/byz Byzantine/Majority Text

[brandplucked]

Again, you make an assumption about my character. I do not hold the position that no particular Bible is the complete Word of God. Where is the quote for that?
My two or three personal favorites??? You offend me.
Where did I say we must go to the Greek and Hebrew? Quotes?

Uh, Kevin, you apparently do not remember what you just got done posting a few days ago. I will remind you.

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:46 am
Posts: 5785
Location: Maryland
ltl wrote:
"The Holy Scriptures are kept perfectly pure by God

[kevinmiller]

Uh, Kevin, you apparently do not remember what you just got done posting a few days ago. I will remind you.

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:46 am
Posts: 5785
Location: Maryland
ltl wrote:
"The Holy Scriptures are kept perfectly pure by God

[brandplucked]

[kevinmiller]

Kevin- "I guess it depends on what you mean by 100% true words of God. I believe that it is without error. I don't believe it to be word for word because it isn't. It wouldn't make sense in word for word English."

Brilliant thought Kevin. So do you mean to tell us that a translation cannot be equally inspired as the original?

Amazing how you managed to get that out of there. Some things are just "duh" Will. You don't need to study the Bible to know that the earth is round. The FACT is, the KJV is not word for word. How that relates to it being inspired or whether you agree with it is another story. As to it being inspired...It is inspired by preservation. It is a translation of the directly inspired Greek and Hebrew. The KJV, a translation, was not directly inspired, or re-inspired.

Where on earth did you get this idea from? Certainly not the Bible. The Bible has many examples that teach that a translation can be the inspired and inerrant word of God. Your thinking here is not at all biblical, but is humanistic and rationalistic.

Right...the Bible doesn't teach that. Let's look up the word "translation" in the KJV, shall we?
To translate the kingdom from the house of Saul, and to set up the throne of David over Israel and over Judah, from Dan even to Beersheba.(II Samuel 3:10)

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
(Hebrews 11:5)

Two references. And they don't mean to translate languages either, by the way. The Bible would not have said anything about translations and it didn't plain and simple. You are the one that forms extra-Biblical ideas and strange doctrines, not me. I am not the one adding to the Bible.
Humanist? I've been called worse.
Rational? Thanks!

Really Will, you bore me. Go take these arguments back to FF, or KJBO, or ezboard, or one of the many other forums where you go to proselytize the unbelievers to KJVism.

[GlenBurnieMD]

Really Will, you bore me. Go take these arguments back to FF, or KJBO, or ezboard, or one of the many other forums where you go to proselytize the unbelievers to KJVism.

And you called him out for being unkind?

Umm...I use ony the KJV and almost exclusively reject all modern versions...but...non-KJVO people tend to be a whole lot nicer which is probably why there are a lot more of them.

Can we get back to the article Will has posted, in a civil way?

[kevinmiller]

Google "brandplucked." He is a member of a LOT of forums and it's all the same; He goes to the forum posting a KJV article of his, people respond, and he singles out those that differ with him and rebukes them. The word 'troll' comes to mind.

[GlenBurnieMD]

Kevin,

Will has been a member of OLB for a lot longer than you have (not that it matters). Will used to post here quite a lot when I first showed up here. I saw him at many other sites before I settled on OLB. I don't have a problem with his ministry of standing up for the Bible on the internet. That is between him and the Lord. I have seen many of the attacks against him and it is usually the same crowd of people. I consider him a friend and an ally. You would be wise to as well. You can learn a lot from him, even in spite of your disagreement on his style and his response to critics.

Consider the other poster that drew you into this fray, JTB. JTB (or is it JTSB) shows up here every now and again to mostly challenge our beliefs that the KJV is the preserved word of God for the English speaking people (see the above box). Why would he do that? For fellowship? To edify us? If most of us wanted to read his opinions we could go to BB or some other board and read it there. This is a KJV only site and I really believe he should respect our convictions and desire to fellowship here as such. I am sure JTB is a decent guy and he loves the Lord, but I really don't care for his disrespect for our convictions. My britches aren't big enough to tell him or anyone else to get lost. No one appointed me or anyone else the baptist pope. I simply resist the temptation to flame him and just ignore him and wait for someone like Will to take his post apart.

Just my :2cents

Mike

[brandplucked]

First, where does the Bible teach that a correct translation has to be word for word? Have you paid any attention to the N.T. quotes of O.T. passages?

Secondly, You say: "As to it being inspired...It is inspired by preservation. It is a translation of the directly inspired Greek and Hebrew." I agree that the originals (whatever they were) were inspired, but if it is the living word of God it is still inspired and alive. Otherwise no one would ever get born again and translated into the kingdom of God.

However, once again you blithely refer to the "Greek and Hebrew" which I doubt even you can read, and you post 4 contradictory sites of what you supposedly mean by the Hebrew and Greek, and these posted texts differ from one another in literally hundreds of places. Regarding the textual issues of "the Hebrew and the Greek" you really don't know what you are talking about.

Kevin, did you by any chance happen to read the link I sent about Can a Translation be Inspired? The Bible DOES teach about how a translation can be the inspired words of God. You say you are not adding to the Bible. Exactly WHAT BIBLE are you referring to? The confused and contradictory one you posted with your four links? Is this the "bible" you are not adding to?

There is a saying I pretty much agree with. "If you mess with the Book, God will mess with your mind."

Will you ever get around to answering the previous question about Luther's bible that omitted 1 John 5:7? Was it the true Bible according to "the Hebrew and Greek"? Or the Geneva bible with its rendering of the Deut. 32:5 passage or the one in Daniel 9:26? Is it the true Bible and the KJB is wrong? Either defend your previous statements or else admit that you were wrong.

Thank you,

Will K

[brandplucked]

Kevin,

Will has been a member of OLB for a lot longer than you have (not that it matters). Will used to post here quite a lot when I first showed up here. I saw him at many other sites before I settled on OLB. I don't have a problem with his ministry of standing up for the Bible on the internet. That is between him and the Lord.
Mike

Hi brother. Thank you. I appreciate your comments. First of all, let me tell you a bit about myself. I am a junior high/high school Spanish teacher at a charter school. This occupies a great deal of my time and energy. I get home at night and still have 2 or 3 hours of correcting papers, grading quizzes, and preparing for the next days lessons.

We each can only do so much with the time and energy we have. My passion is the Bible and the words of truth that God used to bring me out of darkness into the light of His kingdom. By His grace alone, I love His word and the Saviour of whom it speaks.

I see the Bible is clearly being attacked on almost every front and every year fewer and fewer Christians believe the Bible (any bible) is the inspired word of God. The Barna polls show this. The Bible itself tells us that there will be a falling away from the faith in the last days before the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.

We all have perhaps a different hierarchy of what is important to us. My top level concern is the truth of the Book and by this I mean a real and tangible book in print that we hold in our hands and believe every word is the inspired word of God.

We don't choose our calling, God does. I believe He has placed this concern on my heart and mind, and in the little spare time I have, this is what I love to talk about. I personally think it is the most critical area of combat being faced by the church today. You do not have to agree with me. That is fine, but this is how I see it.

Blessing to you all. May He increase our faith and our love for both our Saviour and His word.

Will K

[kevinmiller]

Kevin, did you by any chance happen to read the link I sent about Can a Translation be Inspired? The Bible DOES teach about how a translation can be the inspired words of God. You say you are not adding to the Bible.

If I haven't found it in the Bible yet, I'm sure what you say on your website is not going to convince me that it is in there. I've seen a lot of KJVO people take verses out of context to defend their position.

Exactly WHAT BIBLE are you referring to? The confused and contradictory one you posted with your four links? Is this the "bible" you are not adding to?

So how exactly are they confused and contradictory? They are what your KJV came from. Whether you like it or not, the KJV is a translation from the Textus Receptus and Masoretic Text.

There is a saying I pretty much agree with. "If you mess with the Book, God will mess with your mind."

I haven't messed with the Bible. I haven't defended or come up with any modern versions.

Will you ever get around to answering the previous question about Luther's bible that omitted 1 John 5:7? Was it the true Bible according to "the Hebrew and Greek"? Or the Geneva bible with its rendering of the Deut. 32:5 passage or the one in Daniel 9:26? Is it the true Bible and the KJB is wrong? Either defend your previous statements or else admit that you were wrong.

For one thing, I haven't studied anything about the Luther Bible in particular. Second, I don't know why it would be missing. I imagine it had to do with different methods in translating the KJV and the Luther Bible. The Geneva Bible, overall, is very close in rendering to the KJV. I don't have a Geneva Bible to look at at this moment so I don't know how it inerprets Deuteronomy 32:5 or Daniel 9:26. But they were both translated from the same sources and you have NO(zero, zip, nada) evidence to prove that the KJV is more "inspired" than either one of those.

You can keep saying that my mind is messed up or that I am brain-dead. And you can keep saying that the KJV is re-inspired, and that we are all falling away, but until you post some REAL evidence, you aren't going to convince anyone.

[HappyChristian]

Getting back to the OP - it's interesting, because we just taught that lesson in Sunday School. Do I believe it? Yup!!

I have an aunt that really believed it - to the point that she bought a child's swimming pool, and claimed that an angel troubled the waters once a day, and the first person in....yada yada. She placed this outside the former skating rink she bought to turn into a church. :loco Just thought I'd interject a light note here (I know it's really more sad than funny, but it is a little chuckly)

[John81]

Kevin,

If you believe the KJB is "without error" as you stated, then the Luther, Geneva or any "Bible" which differs from the KJB would have to be in error.

Do you truly believe the KJB is without error?

[kevinmiller]

Yes, I believe it is without error.