Only Begotten (MONOGENES)

[heartstrings]

Has it occured to anyone that some of the events, spoken of in Job 38, may be future events? Many times, future things int he Bible are spoken of as having already happened.

Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth [it], that [men] should fear before him.
Ecc 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Wait a minute....wasn't He slain at Calvary?

Who was the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world? Christ
Who is the cornerstone? Christ

So who are the "all the sons of God"? Believers
Who are the "morning stars"? Could they be the apostles?

[John81]

Y'all are makin' this a mighty interestin' thread.

Thank you!

[IM4given]

Thank you sister. Stones can cry out.
Yes I believe stars can sing.

Even a die-hard scientist will tell you that stones can talk!
Geoliogist listen to rocks and record their data every day!
http://www.livescience.com/imageoftheda ... 70301.html

Astronomers all know that stars can sing!
They emit radio wave signals and can sing together.

So we can take scriptures very literally - and say that when God creted the universe he made the stars that sing together (not only do they sing, but also dance in a magnificent solar ballet!) and stones that cry out - it is not as far-fetched and impossible as it may sound.

[John81]

You don't handle snakes too do you Janet; taking Mark 16:18 very literally? :tum

Just a little "hill folk humor" so y'all just keep yer shotguns down. :eye:

[Bakershalfdozen]

What happened to the literal interpretation of Job, heartstrings? Actually, I like what my pastor calls it: a normal interpretation. Read the Bible normally, not necessarily literally. For instance, when Jesus said He is the door, we know that He isn't literally a door. This passage is obviously figurative.

However, the Job passage is not figurative. God was asking Job what He could ask all of us - WHERE WERE YOU WHEN I CREATED ALL THINGS???

Job 38

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?
36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.



The plain sense of this passage is God asking Job where he was at Creation and for him to declare if he has understanding. Then God asks him to declare the secret things that belong to God thereby showing Job his pride and foolishness.

Heartstrings, why in the world would you say that the earth has no foundations when God Himself said He laid them??? Just because the earth has no foundation that you can comprehend doesn't mean it doesn't have one.


Another question I have is... why do the references to creation in verses 4-11 have to be chronological??? God is simply asking Job, "WERE YOU THERE??? when I did all this???"

Almighty God, how wonderful art Thou. Man is mighty small.

[Bakershalfdozen]

BTW, since the passage is clearly talking about creation, then stars DO sing (reference Janet's link on that), and "sons of God" in that passage IS talking about angels (reference what Calvary wrote) and any other created beings up to that point. There are more creatures (created beings) in Heaven besides the messengers of God we call angels.

[Jerry]

This is all referring to the same time period:

Job 38:4-7 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Where were you when I did this and then that happened? This passage does not say foundations of the world, but foundations of the earth - that was named on day three and was a reference to the land masses. Then the author uses Hebrew parallelism to state this: the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.

Several points about this:

1) Because of the parallelism, it makes both statements supplementary - i.e the morning stars and the sons of God in the passage are one and the same.

2) It cannot be referring to literal stars (and no, I am not arguing that there is no sound NOW coming from literal stars - but God didn't say, where have you been since the stars have been singing - but where were you when a certain group of stars sung), as they were not created until day four. But yet this passage has the morning stars singing WHEN the foundations (plural) of the earth were laid.

[IM4given]

You don't handle snakes too do you Janet; taking Mark 16:18 very literally? :tum

Just a little "hill folk humor" so y'all just keep yer shotguns down.

There ARE Snake Handling Churches in Kentucky too - but those folks are way up yonder in the mountains. But as ole Wendy Bagwell once said - God never asked me to take up a serpent, and since he didn't - then I AIN'T!!!

Don't worry - the shotgun is still put away!

I think it is funny how eight or nine different people can read the same verses of scripture and come up with eight or nine different interpretations. I plan on asking God about all of this, and take Angelogy 101 my first year in Heaven! My first question is going to be are Angels called Angels, or are they called something else? I wanna get it straight once and for all! AMEN!

Are sons of God really sons of God, or are they called something else? Did God create Angels, or were Angels begotten like human beings?

I just read and study my Bible and I let it speak for itself, and I absolutely do not see how anyone can look at the scriptures and come away with Angels being called sons of God. My brain simply can't see it or accept it as plain truth. :huh:

[IM4given]

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world' date=' that he gave his only [b']begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Here is the dictionaries definition of begotten:

BEGOTTEN - [adj] (of offspring) generated by procreation; "naturally begotten child"

Need some help from some of you bible scholars here. Does anyone know why the KJV translated it as (MONOGENES)?
Love,
Madeline

The following is an excerpt from Dr. Thomas Holland's Crowned With Glory,

[Jerry]

If someone said angels were begotten, they were wrong - angels were individually created. Jesus is the only BEGOTTEN Son of God. All other sons of God were either directly individually (ie. physically) created, or were created spiritually as sons of God.

Here are passages where angels are called by terms other than angels:

Fallen angels: Mark 5:13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.

Matthew 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

Holy angels: Isaiah 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

Ezekiel 10:3 Now the cherubims stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court.

Revelation 4:6-7 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

[Jerry]

This might answer some questions on this thread's topic: God's Only Begotten Son

[heartstrings]

What happened to the literal interpretation of Job, heartstrings? Actually, I like what my pastor calls it: a normal interpretation. Read the Bible normally, not necessarily literally. For instance, when Jesus said He is the door, we know that He isn't literally a door. This passage is obviously figurative.

However, the Job passage is not figurative.

Ok then....
If this passage is speaking of the creation, which I doubt at this point, then "morning stars" are in fact literal stars.
And if this was the creation, and "laying the foundation" happened on day three as Jerry says, where were the "morning stars" which sang WHEN the foundation and cornerstone was laid? Because stars were not created until day four.

The plain sense of this passage is God asking Job where he was at Creation and for him to declare if he has understanding. Then God asks him to declare the secret things that belong to God thereby showing Job his pride and foolishness.

This passage does not mention the word "creation".

Heartstrings, why in the world would you say that the earth has no foundations when God Himself said He laid them??? Just because the earth has no foundation that you can comprehend doesn't mean it doesn't have one.

Because I don't think it's speaking of the creation of the earth. You want to take it literally right? Does Planet Earth have literal, physical, foundations, a cornerstone, bars, or doors? I seriously doubt it. Why? Because I believe this is not talking about the creation.

Another question I have is... why do the references to creation in verses 4-11 have to be chronological???

Once again, you are assuming that this is speaking of "creation". Creation is not mentioned here and the question is not about chronological events. The question is simultaneous events. The morning stars sang WHEN the foundations and cornerstone were laid. If foundations were laid on day three or before, there could not have been any stars until day four.

Before anyone goes off and says that Heartstrings doesn't believe what the Bible says.....
I believe every word of it is true right down to the last speck of ink on the very last page.

Where we have trouble is in our understanding of it.

[Bakershalfdozen]

#1, I read the Bible normally, not necessarily literally. I explained that in the first part of my previous post.

#2, God is asking Job where he was when.... so it has to refer to sometime in the past.

#3, I do not believe God was necessarily laying it out chronologically. Morning stars and sons of God can indeed both be referring to created angelic beings and we do not know when they were created so if those terms are synonymous then there is no argument. But stars do sing so again, the passage doesn't have to be chronological to make sense.

#4, The normal reading of the passage tells us that God is asking Job where he was during Creation week. Where were you when...foundations, decrees that the sea would not pass boundaries, etc. No, the words create, creation, created are not in the passage but neither are trinity or rapture in the Bible; yet we still believe in those.




4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

[Madeline]

Honestly, I see a plethora of contextual errors in some of the responses on this thread. However, my discernment tells me that even with proper exegetical analysis - those with a pre-committed theological view will not subject themselves to correction. But I agree with Bakers6 and Jerry for the most part, and I am thrilled that an answer to my OP has been given on the 1st page. ( )

Love,
Madeline

[heartstrings]

Honestly, I see a plethora of contextual errors in some of the responses on this thread. However, my discernment tells me that even with proper exegetical analysis - those with a pre-committed theological view will not subject themselves to correction. But I agree with Bakers6 and Jerry for the most part, and I am thrilled that an answer to my OP has been given on the 1st page. ( )

Love,
Madeline

That's just it.
I've seen no proper exegetical analysis.

Explain to me what the "morning stars" of Job 38 actually are, by comparing scripture with scripture, because nobody has done that so far.

Here's something else to consider......I said consider.
Stars are, many times, associated with believers.

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. With Joseph being a type of Christ, Is this also a prophecy with regards to the resurrection, and the eleven apostles? Luke 24:33-53

How could this be? The Bible says the Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Here you have an event which the Bible says was done, thousands of years before it physically happened. It had not happened yet, but evidently, in God's eyes, it was as good as done.

So why couldn't the disciples, the apostles, be the morning stars?

You have the death, burial, and resurrection, from the foundation of the world.
Is this the laying of the foundations and cornerstone, "when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy"? Luke 24:52-53

Somehow, the angel=sons of God=cohabitation fable just doesn't ring true to me.

I see no profit or truth in it.