The Independent Baptist Church

[Psalms18_28]

I often ask how Jefferson (or Adam) would felt if someone told him to "Hush, his belief is not allowed to discuss with politics" Would he agree with it? or would he argue with it? Would he like it that someone demanding him to tape his mouth shut? Like England did because they don't like any religions that conflict the Church of England (I am sure everyone had to keep their beliefs in their own private homes)?

WWJD : What would Jefferson Do?

Jefferson sure did enjoy his freedom to believe and say anything he want without the feeling of being persecuted. We should have that same feeling too.

[Colin Stolzer]

The Danbury Baptists were the ones who wrote to Jefferson and the letter he wrote back is were the seperation of church and state comes from, it has also been taken very out of the context of the letter these days. Seperation of Church and State today doesn't mean what Jefferson meant it to mean. Just look back through this thread at what some Christians think it means today.

C

[Will]

SBC churches do have autonomy.

[SouthernGal]

Well I can say that our SBC is not swayed toward "liberalism". I'm not sure about other SBC's, but we adhere strictly to the Bible. I'm thankful we have a Pastor that doesn't preach whatever is popular. I can't say we are as conservative as an Independent church might be, but I suppose we're close.

[Calvary]

In keeping with my foirm belief that Christians ought to be aware of the choices, good or bad.
Here is a list that poses Biblical reasons for rejecting Huckabee for pres. Zeal, you said it well, vote Biblical not just conservative.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rklist/message/91108k

God bless,

Calvary

[John81]

In keeping with my foirm belief that Christians ought to be aware of the choices, good or bad.
Here is a list that poses Biblical reasons for rejecting Huckabee for pres. Zeal, you said it well, vote Biblical not just conservative.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rklist/message/91108k

God bless,

Calvary

:amen:

[Bro.Johnny Mac]

[quote="zealyouthguy"]Cough up some proof that they preached politics from the pulpit.

Because that's what the whole statement that I made is based on... and you all have wandered left, right, and all around. Creating straw men, knocking them down, tilting at windmills.

I have repeatedly posted quotes about the beliefs of early Baptists. Show me them endorsing a candidate from their pulpit.

Lest you forget:

[quote]I disagree about the politics, I'm of the opinion that it's because of the lack of pulpits telling the congregations about the politicians and gov't that they (gov't) have been allowed to reduce the moral standard in this country to such a low level.

And historically some baptists have been very active in Gov't: It was because of a baptist preachers influence over Madison that we have the first admendment to the constitution.

C[/quote]

It's not the job of preachers to preach a political agenda. We are to preach the Bible, PERIOD.

It's an ungodly entwining of so called Christians that has allowed the Republican party to become the monster they have... because "christians" vote republican, and not BIBLE.

Christians (real ones) should vote BIBLE regardless of whether they have a chance of "winning" or not. We should vote for the candidate that GOD would have us vote for... not who has the "best chance".

If "christians" would quit playing politics and start living the Bible, we wouldn't need constitutional amendments to protect marriage, we wouldn't have to worry about the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade.

Have faith in God, he over rules government.[/quote]
:amen: :amen: :amen: :thumb

[Bro.Johnny Mac]

[quote="Calvary"]You're moving this thread into an arena that it wasn't talking about. The position of a pastor and his political convictions should be mentioned from a pulpit. To take issue with a platform of a politician is certainly no cause for alarm nor is it shirking his duty to preach against sin.

The point of this talk has been that Christians opting out of politics is not an issue of church and state seperation. I am a Christian, be it as a pastor or as a "lay person" my voice should be heard in the political process. The pulpit of America has been silenced by an indifferent, almost an apethetic attitude of defeat as if it is not my place to say enough is enough.

Queers run America in a large part because Christianity in America has gone home and shut the door content to merely complain and do nothing because somewhere along the line they were convinced that our job is to simply pine away while praying about it.
When I was a boy my mother would shelter my eyes (literally) from an effiminate man and turn us away. Today many main line denominations defend the sick practice and denounce preachers that would stand against such perverseness.

Your position Zeal, tired, is part of the reason America is what it is.

http://books.google.com/books?id=5FidNi ... #PPA103,M1

Read this book.

God bless,

Calvary[/quote]


I disagree,the reason why there is sin in our country is not because preachers dont preach enough about politics. You mention sodomites run America because preachers like Zealy and myself dont tell people who to vote for?
I would again disagree.Preachers who preach politics have in large part hurt the cause of Christ.
Lets look at a few preachers that we all know, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton,have their political preaching helped the cause of Christ?
Or mabey they dont count because they arent conservative?
Yes they are liberal and I disagree with everything that they stand for.Why?Because they are not right doctrinaly on alot of things but this is their main problem,they preach a SOCIAL GOSPEL.
This is something that IFB preachers have always preached against.Why?
Because they looked for the government to change America and not Jesus.Since the SBC and other conservative preachers have preached politics instead of the cross,they have fallen into the same trap as the liberal preachers did,they look for government to solve problems that only Jesus can.They also preach a social gospel,but theirs just happens to republicans changing things and not democrats changing things.
Should preachers preach against abortion,sodomite unions,sodomy,fornication,false religions,lying,cheating,stealing,drugs,booze,gangs,adultery,murder,gambling..yep and all of these sins have been made into political issues at one time or another.The aswer to these problems is not Ron Paul or Hillary Clinton,the answer is Jesus.

When preachers preach for the cause of politics and not Jesus they are going aginst the word of God.The mission we all have as saved people is to live for Christ and witness for Christ..
Making sure a conservative president gets elected,so he can nominate some judge who may or may not send abortion rights back to the States should not be our main objective,because at the root of the abortion problem is not liberal judges but sin.We need to be reaching the lost and making disciples of lost teenagers,unwed mothers,politicians and abortion doctors.The answer for all that ails this country of ours is not who our next president will be,the answer is Jesus.
A liberal nor conservative government has ever changed a heart,but we know Jesus does.
I do think Christians should vote,know the issues ect.....

Let me put it this way,if the folks Im preaching to dont know that sodomite unions,abortion,gambling ect..are wrong then I have failed as a preacher.
If a preacher preaches the entire counsel of God the way he should,he shouldnt have to tell people who to vote for,they will know who stands on Godly standards and vote accordingly. :2cents

[Calvary]

You're moving this thread into an arena that it wasn't talking about. The position of a pastor and his political convictions should be mentioned from a pulpit. To take issue with a platform of a politician is certainly no cause for alarm nor is it shirking his duty to preach against sin.

The point of this talk has been that Christians opting out of politics is not an issue of church and state seperation. I am a Christian, be it as a pastor or as a "lay person" my voice should be heard in the political process. The pulpit of America has been silenced by an indifferent, almost an apethetic attitude of defeat as if it is not my place to say enough is enough.

I did not say that queers run America because you won't preach politics. Don't twist my words please.

I did say clearly enough, that if I do speak against a political party or polititian I am not shirking my duty at all as a pastor.

A born again America is no guarantee that all will be well in the land of freedom. Just a simple look at any local church will demostrate that folks be they saved or not are still subject to Adam having free reign in their lives. Your argument is based upon a fallacy.

If you voted against congressman who supported the queers, the abortion clinics and all other forms of legislated wickedness, you would have plenty of time left for discipling, soul winning etc.

The Lord did not tell us to opt out of our society, but to influence it. We are a light on a hill not to be placed under a bushel. Saying I won't tell my congregation that Huckabee (for example) is a liberal anti christian law maker pretending to be a conservative is ridiculous. Why wouldn't you tell them?

God bless,

Calvary

[John81]

If you voted against congressman who supported the queers, the abortion clinics and all other forms of legislated wickedness, you would have plenty of time left for discipling, soul winning etc.

The Lord did not tell us to opt out of our society, but to influence it. We are a light on a hill not to be placed under a bushel. Saying I won't tell my congregation that Huckabee (for example) is a liberal anti christian law maker pretending to be a conservative is ridiculous. Why wouldn't you tell them?

God bless,

Calvary

:amen:

[Bro.Johnny Mac]

I did not say that queers run America because you won't preach politics. Don't twist my words please.

I did say clearly enough, that if I do speak against a political party or polititian I am not shirking my duty at all as a pastor.

A born again America is no guarantee that all will be well in the land of freedom. Just a simple look at any local church will demostrate that folks be they saved or not are still subject to Adam having free reign in their lives. Your argument is based upon a fallacy.

If you voted against congressman who supported the queers, the abortion clinics and all other forms of legislated wickedness, you would have plenty of time left for discipling, soul winning etc.

The Lord did not tell us to opt out of our society, but to influence it. We are a light on a hill not to be placed under a bushel. Saying I won't tell my congregation that Huckabee (for example) is a liberal anti christian law maker pretending to be a conservative is ridiculous. Why wouldn't you tell them?

God bless,

Calvary

I wasn't twisting your words. I was making a statement in the form of a question because I wasn't sure of your position.No deceit was involved. I'm sorry if it sounded that way. My apologies.

I will keep preaching agianst sin and preaching the gospel. That is what will influence America, not a political party or govenment.

I don't think preaching against sin and preaching the gospel is opting out of society. I know that God changes hearts through His word and I know government will never do that. That's hardly opting out. That's doing what God tells the church to do.

Jesus told us to be light and salt. That was for saved people, not the government. Jesus is the answer, not a better form of a manmade government. I don't look for politicians to do what only God can do.

Is it a fallacy that Jesus and the apostles lived in a society that did not give much freedom to them, but they knew the answer wasn't a manmade government.They lived under the most ungodly government and culture the world has ever seen. The early church lived in a society that jailed them and put them to death for spreading the gospel. They didn't waste time arguing politics because they knew that Jesus was the answer, not Ceasar. They managed to see their culture change and see untold numbers of sinners get saved because they were obeying the great comission not because they went around preaching aginst Ceasar. That's not fallacy, that's Bible. So my Bible tells me that preaching aginst sin and preaching the cross is the biblical thing to do. They saw things change because they were living holy, living for the Lord, and spreading the gospel. That's the biblical pattern.

The apostles turned the known world on its ear and saw great change for the better, and it wasn't because they were preaching politics -- it was because they were preaching Jesus. I'll trust Jesus to change things through his preached word. You can trust politicians if you like, but I know that they will fail. But Jesus never does. That is not fallacy, but truth.


I feel quite comfortable in the fact that I am preaching against sin and preaching Jesus, and trusting in Him, because only Jesus can cure the problem this country has -- sin.

[John81]

Here's an example of where I believe preachers should confront the politics/politicians of our day.

President Bush has stated on several occasions that Islam and Christianity are equal. He has stated that Muslims and Christians pray to the same God. He has declared that all religions pray to the same God and that all religions lead to heaven.

I believe it's the duty of preachers to confront such lies so there is no doubt in the mind of his hearers.

Does this require the preacher to choose a politician to endorse from the pulpit? No. Does this require the preacher to speak all manner of ill against the president? No.

However, the preacher has a duty to make sure his listeners know truth from error. Too many professing Christians today blindly follow and support any politician calling themselves Republican. Christians should be much more discerning and preachers should help in this.

This doesn't mean a preacher has to pick a party or candidate to endorse nor do they need to bash anyone.

Candidates that espouse unbiblical/ungodly positions should be exposed. If politician Jeff supports abortion on demand, the pastor should make sure his listeners know this so they may see the light.

This doesn't require an entire sermon on politics or politician Jeff. A preacher can work a line or a few lines right into the midst of most any sermon in order to shine the light of truth upon the matter.

I realize these are rather simplistic examples, but really it doesn't have to be any more complicated than this.

I don't think anyone here is advocating that preachers spend their time preaching on politics or spending hours and days supporting or working against any particular politician or political issue. Even so, the shining the light of truth on such matters should not go undone.

[Will]

In keeping with my foirm belief that Christians ought to be aware of the choices, good or bad.
Here is a list that poses Biblical reasons for rejecting Huckabee for pres. Zeal, you said it well, vote Biblical not just conservative.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rklist/message/91108k

God bless,

Calvary

Does that have anything to do with this thread?

[John81]

Does that have anything to do with this thread?

Since those in Independent Baptist churches should be Christians, and they should be aware of their choices, I suppose it could be considered to have something to do with this thread.

[Calvary]

It might not as far as the OP is concerned, but it seems to have developed into this line of thinking. We all know how na thread can take on a life of it's own.

If you would like to split it, be my guest.

God bless,

Calvary