The Independent Baptist Church

[Colin Stolzer]

It's interesting that every quote you have given deals with a State sanctioned Church and none of them deal with Christians being involved in politics. When are you going to get to the quotes which supports your statements about the Early American Baptists not being involved in politics.

C

[Calvary]

Zeal,

I fear I must echo CP's comments. Your quotes are excellent to demostrate exactly what church and state seperation is and ought to be, but they do nothing to provide an example of early forefathers not being politically involved and Christian at the same time.

God bless,

Calvary

[zealyouthguy]

Cough up some proof that they preached politics from the pulpit.

Because that's what the whole statement that I made is based on... and you all have wandered left, right, and all around. Creating straw men, knocking them down, tilting at windmills.

I have repeatedly posted quotes about the beliefs of early Baptists. Show me them endorsing a candidate from their pulpit.

Lest you forget:

I disagree about the politics, I'm of the opinion that it's because of the lack of pulpits telling the congregations about the politicians and gov't that they (gov't) have been allowed to reduce the moral standard in this country to such a low level.

And historically some baptists have been very active in Gov't: It was because of a baptist preachers influence over Madison that we have the first admendment to the constitution.

C

It's not the job of preachers to preach a political agenda. We are to preach the Bible, PERIOD.

It's an ungodly entwining of so called Christians that has allowed the Republican party to become the monster they have... because "christians" vote republican, and not BIBLE.

Christians (real ones) should vote BIBLE regardless of whether they have a chance of "winning" or not. We should vote for the candidate that GOD would have us vote for... not who has the "best chance".

If "christians" would quit playing politics and start living the Bible, we wouldn't need constitutional amendments to protect marriage, we wouldn't have to worry about the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade.

Have faith in God, he over rules government.

[Colin Stolzer]

You can start by reading the sermons of:
Rev. Jonas Clark
Rev. John Peter Muhlenberg
Abraham Baldwin
Reverend Timothy Dwight
William Rogers
REV. Charles Thompson
REV. William Vanhorn
REV. David Jones

How many more would you like? You can read through there sermons all from the revolutionary era and see how they preached from the pulpit. I don't know as I can show you them endorsing any one candidate, but I can show you how they endorsed political actions and causes from the pulpit. And how they were personally involved in the Gov't.

C

[Colin Stolzer]

It's not the job of preachers to preach a political agenda. We are to preach the Bible, PERIOD.

Not period. It's part of the preachers job to preach against those things that are contrary to the word of God, and lead his flock to stand against those things, even when those things are endorsed by the Gov't. Be doers of the word.

C

[tired]

Wouldn't that mean that a good preacher would have to preach against all the wicked politicians?

[tired]

He would have to preach against Hillary,Obama,Biden and any of those who believe in abortion and tolerating the sodomites. Then he would have to preach against those republicans who take the mass, those who wear magic underwear, those who have been caught in lies and all the wickedness that oozes out of both parties. Who would this pastor back?

[Colin Stolzer]

Show me a good one so I know what one looks like for comparison.

C

[tired]

There is none. All of those pastors who preached from their pulpits back in the day probably had men who were running who were good men of God. There are none now. I think a pastor should preach against sin and I think that would disqualify all of these people running now. I am not saying not to vote or try to change the gov, but I don't feel the pastor should tell his congregation who to vote for these days.

[Calvary]

You're moving this thread into an arena that it wasn't talking about. The position of a pastor and his political convictions should be mentioned from a pulpit. To take issue with a platform of a politician is certainly no cause for alarm nor is it shirking his duty to preach against sin.

The point of this talk has been that Christians opting out of politics is not an issue of church and state seperation. I am a Christian, be it as a pastor or as a "lay person" my voice should be heard in the political process. The pulpit of America has been silenced by an indifferent, almost an apethetic attitude of defeat as if it is not my place to say enough is enough.

Queers run America in a large part because Christianity in America has gone home and shut the door content to merely complain and do nothing because somewhere along the line they were convinced that our job is to simply pine away while praying about it.
When I was a boy my mother would shelter my eyes (literally) from an effiminate man and turn us away. Today many main line denominations defend the sick practice and denounce preachers that would stand against such perverseness.

Your position Zeal, tired, is part of the reason America is what it is.

http://books.google.com/books?id=5FidNi ... #PPA103,M1

Read this book.

God bless,

Calvary

[tired]

I thought this countries problems were cause of heresy and wickedness not cause I think that the politicians are wicked and I will back none of them. I see your point and I agree that pastors should stand and preach on wickedness and heresy and all the evils that are going on in not just this country but the whole world. I am just saying that pastors shouldn't get up and go by their party line and not look at the wickedness of his candidate and yell about the evil of someone elses. I will honor my leaders as the bible spells out. I will not try to overthrow my gov or attack cause the bible tells me not to. We have to just witness to as many people as possible. This country will not change from making laws to make the wicked follow christian rule. Whose christian rule, Rome, Utah, IFB, moonies. We need to focus on equipping the saved and leading as many as we can to Jesus. Now I know I went all over the map. I am sorry.

[Calvary]

I think we are in agreement.

I don't advocate marching on Wash. to change our laws. But I do say if Christians had maintained a watchful eye on politics and the winds of change that were coming, we could have perhaps averted some of the wickedness in this nation. The BIble clearly says that righteousness exalteth a nation.

For that to happen, the leadership of the nation had to be righteous.

We allowed wicked men to run our nation by not voting them out.

We are reaping what we have sown.

God bless,

Calvary

[John81]

I think we are in agreement.

I don't advocate marching on Wash. to change our laws. But I do say if Christians had maintained a watchful eye on politics and the winds of change that were coming, we could have perhaps averted some of the wickedness in this nation. The BIble clearly says that righteousness exalteth a nation.

For that to happen, the leadership of the nation had to be righteous.

We allowed wicked men to run our nation by not voting them out.

We are reaping what we have sown.

God bless,

Calvary

:amen:

[Psalms18_28]

You can start by reading the sermons of:
Rev. Jonas Clark
Rev. John Peter Muhlenberg
Abraham Baldwin
Reverend Timothy Dwight
William Rogers
REV. Charles Thompson
REV. William Vanhorn
REV. David Jones

How many more would you like? You can read through there sermons all from the revolutionary era and see how they preached from the pulpit. I don't know as I can show you them endorsing any one candidate, but I can show you how they endorsed political actions and causes from the pulpit. And how they were personally involved in the Gov't.

C

yes, they were very involve with the Gov't, Even one of the baptist church wrote to Thomas Jefferson (if they weren't involve with politics, they wouldn't bother writing to Thomas Jefferson)

[dwayner79]

separation of Church and state has everything to do with keeping the state out of the church, not the church out of the state.

(sorry for the trite expression, but I got to run)