Do We Also Have Bible-Based Doctrines That Are Wrong? Is There a Case for Women as Pastors?

[BrotherTony]

43 minutes ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

You appear unaware that the terms complementarian and egalitarian are very commonly used in everyday commentary on this topic. They are helpful terms for discussion in that they carry a lot of meaning in a word.

Unaware? Very doubtful since I have mentioned why I rejected the use of such labels in my previous posts, which proves that you don't read the postings, but, rather scan them for bullet points that you can answer. Shameful, Doc. 

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

5 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

Unaware? Very doubtful since I have mentioned why I rejected the use of such labels in my previous posts, which proves that you don't read the postings, but, rather scan them for bullet points that you can answer. Shameful, Doc. 

I can assure you I read everything.

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

2 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

"Appearances" are not facts. 

Yes, you're right, they often aren't. To clarify, I use the word "appear" for commentary, when I know it's only right to offer room for other possible reasons, like for why Paul swapped the names around.

Edited June 6, 2023 by Dr. Robert S. Morley

[Pastor Matt]

1 hour ago, BrotherTony said:

which proves that you don't read the postings, but, rather scan them for bullet points that you can answer.

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Rom 16:7).

The name Junia is female. And, according to the KJV, Junia was an apostle. Besides the twelve and Paul, there were others who were called apostles. Those who are named are James, the Lord's brother (Gal. 1:19), Barnabas (Acts 14:14), Silvanus (Silas) and, possibly, Timothy (1 Thess. 1:1,2,:6) and Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7).

[BrotherTony]

1 hour ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Rom 16:7).

The name Junia is female. And, according to the KJV, Junia was an apostle. Besides the twelve and Paul, there were others who were called apostles. Those who are named are James, the Lord's brother (Gal. 1:19), Barnabas (Acts 14:14), Silvanus (Silas) and, possibly, Timothy (1 Thess. 1:1,2,:6) and Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7).

And the word "apostle" means what? Answer: person sent. Again... nothing of note here. Why the continued attempts at overreach? An apostle mentioning others who were sent.  Woman are sent as well, but, not as pastors.

Edited June 6, 2023 by BrotherTony

[TheGloryLand]

4 hours ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Rom 16:7).

The name Junia is female. And, according to the KJV, Junia was an apostle. Besides the twelve and Paul, there were others who were called apostles. Those who are named are James, the Lord's brother (Gal. 1:19), Barnabas (Acts 14:14), Silvanus (Silas) and, possibly, Timothy (1 Thess. 1:1,2,:6) and Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7).

This is the first time that I ever heard this, was this woman also an evangelist, did she lead anybody to Christ, baptize, or anyone healed. What did she do for the ministry?

[DaveW]

7 hours ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Rom 16:7).

The name Junia is female. And, according to the KJV, Junia was an apostle. Besides the twelve and Paul, there were others who were called apostles. Those who are named are James, the Lord's brother (Gal. 1:19), Barnabas (Acts 14:14), Silvanus (Silas) and, possibly, Timothy (1 Thess. 1:1,2,:6) and Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7).

Lets quote the verse itself and see what it says about Junia......

Rom 16:7
(7)  Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
 

I don't know, but it seems to me that it says KINSMEN.........

You can talk about naming conventions, but your decision to make it female is an ASSUMPTION that is not borne out by the verse itself.

14 hours ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

Complementarian theology hinders people from experiencing so-called exceptions.

Apollos is another man who was taught by a woman. In Acts, Luke writes, "[Paul] found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them "(Acts 18:2).

Later, he writes, "And [Apollos] began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, THEY took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly" (Acts 18:26). Note that this couple both taught and shepherded Apollos.

Paul mentions them in three letters.

"The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house" (1 Cor. 16:19).

"Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 16:3).

"Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus" (2 Tim. 4:19).

By placing Priscilla's name ahead of her husband's in his later epistles, Paul appears to esteem her ahead of Aquila as a co-worker.

This is a ridiculous argument.

You conveniently neglect to quote other verses:

Act 18:2
(2)  And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.
Act 18:26
(26)  And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
1Co 16:19
(19)  The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.
 

By placing Aquila's name ahead of his wife's in these passages, Paul (OK Luke in two of these) appears to esteem him ahead of Priscilla as a co-worker.

Finally, 

16 hours ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

I've shown by perfectly acceptable hermeneutics that nothing in God's word forbids female pastors and that the weight of scripture confirms that women can teach men and have authority equal them. I've also shown how the proof texts used against women pastors don't say what many think they do.

 

I don't know, how about:

1Ti 3:2
(2)  A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
 

And don't even try to say that this should be "Partner of one Partner".

The Word Husband in this passage is inherently masculine, whilst the word wife is inherently feminine. Even in the Greek if you choose to go there.

And to argue that it was acceptable culturally to do this, is to say that God doesn't know enough to write His Word they way He needs to, and that He is bound by cultural ideologies. Not the God that my Bible describes, although apparently your god is restricted by culture.

 

I am just a dumb bloke who chooses to understand what the Bible says in the way that it says it.

I hope I never become intelligent enough to figure out that the Bible doesn't mean what it says. Like you.

 

[Jim_Alaska]

Thank you for your reply to this conversation Dave. Although you don't post much; when you do it is always well thought out and biblically correct.

[Napsterdad]

16 hours ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Rom 16:7).

The name Junia is female. And, according to the KJV, Junia was an apostle. Besides the twelve and Paul, there were others who were called apostles. Those who are named are James, the Lord's brother (Gal. 1:19), Barnabas (Acts 14:14), Silvanus (Silas) and, possibly, Timothy (1 Thess. 1:1,2,:6) and Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7).

"who are of note among the apostles" could just as easily mean 'who are esteemed by the apostles'. In other words, when the apostles consider these two individuals, they are held in high regard. There is no need to force the title of Apostle on either of these two, whether they be male or female.

[Joe Chandler]

8 hours ago, DaveW said:

I am just a dumb bloke who chooses to understand what the Bible says in the way that it says it.

I hope I never become intelligent enough to figure out that the Bible doesn't mean what it says. Like you.

Well said, old boy. Let the clear passages take priority over the obscure passages. Forget all the "Yea hath God said?" nonsense.  

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

15 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

And the word "apostle" means what? Answer: person sent. Again... nothing of note here. Why the continued attempts at overreach? An apostle mentioning others who were sent.  Woman are sent as well, but, not as pastors.

Good answer, Tony. Now, consider that a person sent by God as an apostle has been given the authority to teach.

[TheGloryLand]

26 minutes ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

Good answer, Tony. Now, consider that a person sent by God as an apostle has been given the authority to teach.

Nicely said, I like the part for she is the weak vessel, or weak apostle. Don’t forget to cover your head/hair during class.

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

12 hours ago, TheGloryLand said:

This is the first time that I ever heard this, was this woman also an evangelist, did she lead anybody to Christ, baptize, or anyone healed. What did she do for the ministry?

A lot can be deduced from these few words Paul said: "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Rom. 16:7).

With regard to ministry, Paul says that Andronicus and Junia were "fellowprisoners" of his. One can assume that their imprisonment might also have been for their faith.

Paul also said that they "are of note among the apostles." Accordingly, Junia would have done the work of an apostle. Here are definitions of what an apostle does:

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Apostle: (Gk. apostolos [ajpovstolo"]). Envoy, ambassador, or messenger commissioned to carry out the instructions of the commissioning age[sic n]t.

Strongs: From apostello; a delegate; specially, an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ.

Not much more is said of them, except that they were "kinsmen" of Paul and "also were in Christ before him."

[TheGloryLand]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

A lot can be deduced from these few words Paul said: "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Rom. 16:7).

With regard to ministry, Paul says that Andronicus and Junia were "fellowprisoners" of his. One can assume that their imprisonment might also have been for their faith.

Paul also said that they "are of note among the apostles." Accordingly, Junia would have done the work of an apostle. Here are definitions of what an apostle does:

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Apostle: (Gk. apostolos [ajpovstolo"]). Envoy, ambassador, or messenger commissioned to carry out the instructions of the commissioning age[sic n]t.

Strongs: From apostello; a delegate; specially, an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ.

Not much more is said of them, except that they were "kinsmen" of Paul and "also were in Christ before him."

Thanks, I also understand that in the Old Testament, they were much stricter than  we are today. The role of her teachings and reminding silence, today this all change of course. For the liberals are taking over and we true believers, are in the minority. I believe you are a liberal, open to changes that will please the more. You are a good liberal, trying to do what is right. This is your personal choice, like Salvation. Have a nice day. TGL