Sickness among Christians

[Jerry]

2 hours ago, baptist senior said:

I should have asked this question a different way.  James tells us that the 'prayer of faith shall save the sick and God will rise them up --- since there are so many bothers and sisters that remain sick is it because we are not praying, or we are not praying in faith?  What would happen if we were actually serious about prayer? 

I know not every one agrees with this viewpoint, but I am entirely convinced that the context of James 5 is dealing with sickness due to chastisement (as several other NT passages also deal with). Therefore it is not a general promise of healing to everyone - but specific promise of healing to those being chastised by sickness who then repent and follow what it says to make their sin right. THEN God heals them. All other situations do not actually fit the context. It is not a matter of other people not having enough faith or God not keeping His Word, but due to a wrong application of that passage.

James 5:13-20 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

[baptist senior]

25 minutes ago, Jerry said:

I know not every one agrees with this viewpoint, but I am entirely convinced that the context of James 5 is dealing with sickness due to chastisement (as several other NT passages also deal with). Therefore it is not a general promise of healing to everyone - but specific promise of healing to those being chastised by sickness who then repent and follow what it says to make their sin right. THEN God heals them. All other situations do not actually fit the context. It is not a matter of other people not having enough faith or God not keeping His Word, but due to a wrong application of that passage.

James 5:13-20 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Wouldn't that take away faith from prayer for healing since we would never know whether they are sick from chastisement  or just sick.  Would we not then just pray for them to repent just in case?  I don't see alot elders praying over the sick etc either.  Sometimes I think us Baptists are just afraid of getting called chrismatic so we avoid alot of things the NT churches did 

[Razor]

37 minutes ago, Jerry said:

Again, you state your nonbiblical opinions over and over. You say something is a sin - ok, quote the passages that actually state that. The Bible does not say that. This is what the Bible does say:

1 Timothy 4:7-9 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

God puts the emphasis on our spiritual walks with Him, not on our physical shell. I don't like being out of shape,  but it is not due to overeating - I have problems with my blood sugar level at times because I can't always eat what is necessary (referring to eating even less, not referring to eating unhealthy foods). I am certainly not overeating. With this Covid mess (not being able to go anywhere or having to wear a mask the whole time you are somewhere, which I can't do with my asthma) and with arthritis in my knees (among other health issues), I have found that I am way less physically active than I used to be; therefore put on some weight. Is there anywhere in God's Word that says I am sinning because I don't have a really good physical routine that counteracts my limited  mobility due to my arthritis? No. While it is great to have perfect health and think you are so better off than those people that are out of shape, guess what, that is only a dream, not reality when many of us get older. (And those who prioritize their physical bodies over everything else, that IS sin - the Bible uses several terms to describe it such as being lovers of themselves, idolators (worshipping their own bodies).

Is gluttony a sin?

[BrotherTony]

25 minutes ago, Razor said:

Is gluttony a sin?

You have yet to describe BIBLICAL gluttony....And not all people who are overweight are gluttons. So, Biblically defend your position...if you can.

[Jerry]

1 hour ago, baptist senior said:

Wouldn't that take away faith from prayer for healing since we would never know whether they are sick from chastisement  or just sick.  Would we not then just pray for them to repent just in case?  I don't see alot elders praying over the sick etc either.

If you are being chastized, you KNOW it. It is up to the believer to take the appropriate steps and meet with the leadership of his local church. And not applying it has nothing to do with someone being Baptist or not. Many people will not read or study the Bible in context, so don't know what it truly teaches, what the promises and requirements to claim the promises are. We are to keep praying for people to be healed from many other passages - but nowhere does God emphatically state all will be healed. It is up to His will. In the case of chastisement, the healing will come when the person gets their sin right. I don't think it always needs to be a case where the elders are involved, but if the healing does not come another way and if the believer knows they are being chastized, then they need to act on faith (ie. believe and accept what God says to do), and apply the instructions in the passage.

To quote another poster: Is gluttony** a sin? Yes (but you still need to define it Biblically - riotous partying and gluttonous celebrations are wrong; however, eating a dessert or having seconds is not necessarily being gluttonous. And not all weight gain has to do with gluttony.

**We are not Catholics here, dealing with one of the "seven deadly sins". We need to see what God says about this Biblically. All four passages in the Bible that specifically refer to gluttony by name associate it with drinking and revelry (ie. riotous partying), not just eating a little more than someone else with a higher metabolism thinks we should.

Deuteronomy 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

Proverbs 23:21 For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags. (See also verse 20)

Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Luke 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

I know there are other passages that refer to this with different words and in other contexts; however, some here seem to make it some huge sin, whereas God doesn't seem to refer to it much. (I am not saying it is not a sin or anything like that - but put the emphasis where God puts it.)

Edited January 1, 2022 by Jerry

[Razor]

25 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

You have yet to describe BIBLICAL gluttony....And not all people who are overweight are gluttons. So, Biblically defend your position...if you can.

What do you think Biblical gluttony is?

[BrotherTony]

3 minutes ago, Razor said:

What do you think Biblical gluttony is?

Sorry...not playing this stupid diversionary game with you again...You consistently try to divert attention away from things you can't or won't explain. UGH!

[Razor]

I know BrotherTony will not answer my question. I'll give him some choices to select from.

 

Christianity[edit]

 

 

• Deuteronomy 21:20 – "And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
• Proverbs 23:20–21 – "Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh: For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags."
• Proverbs 23:2 – "When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what is before thee. And put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite."

Just now, BrotherTony said:

Sorry...not playing this stupid diversionary game with you again...You consistently try to divert attention away from things you can't or won't explain. UGH!

ROFL. I knew you would not answer. 

[Jerry]

Way of Life Encyclopedia defines Gluttonous as: One who lives for fleshly pleasures; excessive eating and drinking (Matthew 11:19).

Webster's 1828 Dictionary says this on Glutton: One who indulges to excess in eating. 1. One eager of any thing to excess.

Also, Gluttonize: To eat to excess; to eat voraciously; to indulge the appetite to excess; to be luxurious.

Gluttonous: . Given to excessive eating; indulging the appetite for food to excess; as a gluttonous age.

 

4 minutes ago, Razor said:

Proverbs 23:2 – "When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what is before thee. And put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite."

Yes, this fits some of the theme here; however, the warning is against offending the ruler through desiring too much food at his table. So, not very helpful defining the word.

[BrotherTony]

8 minutes ago, Razor said:

I know BrotherTony will not answer my question. I'll give him some choices to select from.

 

Christianity[edit]

 

 

• Deuteronomy 21:20 – "And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
• Proverbs 23:20–21 – "Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh: For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags."
• Proverbs 23:2 – "When thou sittest to eat with a ruler, consider diligently what is before thee. And put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite."

ROFL. I knew you would not answer. 

I don't answer because all you do is try to divert attention away from what you've posted. I was clear that I'm not playing your games. Either plainly lay out your position, or go find another person you think you can intimidate. I'm not doing it. Have a nice day.

[Razor]

4 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

I don't answer because all you do is try to divert attention away from what you've posted. I was clear that I'm not playing your games. Either plainly lay out your position, or go find another person you think you can intimidate. I'm not doing it. Have a nice day.

No, you simply refuse to discuss rationally and like to criticize and dance around blowing smoke. 

Now, let's go back to the topic on which you refuse to face the truth. Vaccinations save people's lives.

[Jim_Alaska]

Razor,, your statement about vaccinations belongs on the Covid thread. It is off topic in this thread.

In the future, please stray on topic.

[TheGloryLand]

13 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

I don't answer because all you do is try to divert attention away from what you've posted. I was clear that I'm not playing your games. Either plainly lay out your position, or go find another person you think you can intimidate. I'm not doing it. Have a nice day.

You guys are funny, the late night Baptist show…

Here issssss Tony.  

[baptist senior]

1 hour ago, Jerry said:

If you are being chastized, you KNOW it. It is up to the believer to take the appropriate steps and meet with the leadership of his local church. And not applying it has nothing to do with someone being Baptist or not. Many people will not read or study the Bible in context, so don't know what it truly teaches, what the promises and requirements to claim the promises are. We are to keep praying for people to be healed from many other passages - but nowhere does God emphatically state all will be healed. It is up to His will. In the case of chastisement, the healing will come when the person gets their sin right. I don't think it always needs to be a case where the elders are involved, but if the healing does not come another way and if the believer knows they are being chastized, then they need to act on faith (ie. believe and accept what God says to do), and apply the instructions in the passage.

To quote another poster: Is gluttony** a sin? Yes (but you still need to define it Biblically - riotous partying and gluttonous celebrations are wrong; however, eating a dessert or having seconds is not necessarily being gluttonous. And not all weight gain has to do with gluttony.

**We are not Catholics here, dealing with one of the "seven deadly sins". We need to see what God says about this Biblically. All four passages in the Bible that specifically refer to gluttony by name associate it with drinking and revelry (ie. riotous partying), not just eating a little more than someone else with a higher metabolism thinks we should.

Deuteronomy 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

Proverbs 23:21 For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.

Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Luke 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

I know there are other passages that refer to this with different words and in other contexts; however, some here seem to make it some huge sin, whereas God doesn't seem to refer to it much. (I am not saying it is not a sin or anything like that - but put the emphasis where God puts it.)

I can't disagree with anything you say here.  Thanks for putting it into perspective for me.   We know that everyone  thinks the other persons 'sin' is worse than theirs even if it only appears to be a sin.  

[SureWord]

13 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

There are many obese Christians...period...and a lot of times this obesity has NOTHING to do with over eating. This is a tired, old argument, and a straw man that those who can't come up with other examples use on a consistent basis. UGH!

Maybe, but I guaranteed the majority comes from too much good cooking.

When's the last time a church fasted before sending out missionaries instead of stuffing their gullets? Acts 13:2,3

By the way, I know a lot of my health issues comes from my weight and poor eating habits. like my Type 2.