What would you do?

[No Nicolaitans]

I could be wrong, but I don't think the word "discretion" in that verse is referring specifically to a woman's clothing (or lack thereof).

The word "discretion" as defined in the 1600s...

From Robert Cawdrey's "A Table Alphabeticall"...

https://extra.shu.ac.uk/emls/iemls/work/etexts/caw1604w_removed.htm#d

Quote

discretion, wise choise of one from another

[Thief on the Cross]

33 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

I could be wrong, but I don't think the word "discretion" in that verse is referring specifically to a woman's clothing (or lack thereof).

The word "discretion" as defined in the 1600s...

From Robert Cawdrey's "A Table Alphabeticall"...

https://extra.shu.ac.uk/emls/iemls/work/etexts/caw1604w_removed.htm#d

My answer was in keeping with the original post and discussion.   I do not understand the point of the proverb being posted in any other context.    If it was not directed at the woman of the OP , I dont see the point othervthan to cause contention,    im to sick and tired (literally) to go around in circles .   I was hoping to have civil discussion and fellowship on this site as Im shut in quite alot.   I dont think this is the place for me.   

[HappyChristian]

Yes, that is a good verse. And NoNi, you'r right. It has nothing to do with clothing (but I don't think that was the thought behind the posting anyway )

Thief, Proverbs 11:22 is an excellent verse that does apply to your OP.  How would I apply it? I would say that it applies in the manner in which an unsaved (or even newly saved) woman is treated when she comes to church.  Wise choices (discretion) would mean loving the visitor, befriending her, and once saved, discipling her; teaching her to love the Savior, His Word, and His church. Modesty in dress would be part of that, but would not be the complete focus.  (for women...men, you take other men under your wing, not women  )

I would also like to address the idea that was raised about a woman coming in to church in a bikini...I strongly disagree that the men of the church would be horrid sinners with no self control if they looked (and looked again) at the woman. (the children as well - because I guarantee the kids would gawk) Why do I say that? Because any woman who wears a bikini into church is doing it FOR ATTENTION. Even in this day and age of people putting on as little clothing as possible, people know better than to wear a bikini to church (even the lost...and, really, very often the lost are MORE concerned with how they dress for church). A woman who wears a bikini to church is doing it as a poke in the eye to the members of that church. Some might argue that, but I know I'm correct (husbands, ask your wives what they think about it...I bet they'd agree with me. Because we're women and we know how women think...).  (men coming in spandex might just be men who don't think...I know someone who came to work in a public library dressed in his biking shorts...gross...he didn't do it a second time, because the boss told him not to. But he didn't see anything wrong with it. In all my years at the library - 17 - no woman ever came in in her bikini [without being modestly covered, let me qualify]. His employer can tell him not to do that. But should a church forbid him entrance unless he changes clothes? I'm not sold on that...but on the bikini? Yes, I think I am...)

As was pointed out, modesty is a moral issue. It is an important principle to learn, to understand, and to teach. But the lost are not children of God. They have not the Spirit, and so they will only dress as they were taught to do in the home and as their associates do around them, unless they ask someone at church. Discretion - wise choices in every area, including how we speak to the lost. The lack thereof in a woman is like putting jewelry in a pig's nose. My Dad raised pigs. He loved those piggies. But he NEVER put jewelry in their snouts because that would be ludicrous.  

MEN need to be discrete as well. Proverbs 2 deals with that. Wise choices. In how we deal with the lost. With the newly saved. With those who've been saved a long time. With fellow forum members.

Here is a great scripture for discretion in our words, for everyone: "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth [no choices here...no means none], but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God..."

Folks, let's practice that discretion, yes? Don't post inflammatory things simply to hammer your opinions into someone's head. Let's not post snarky comments directed personally at people with whom we have a disagreement. And let's most definitely not use scripture to try and shame someone. Let's let the Holy Spirit do His work and mold us the way HE desires.

@Thief on the Cross - I sure hope you don't leave. Sadly, things like clothing incite a lot of emotions that aren't always very well handled. Sometimes it's zealousness, so if we can remember that, mayhap it would be easier to "handle." One thing that I think is good: I think it's a truth that the folks on this site love the Lord and wish to see people saved. Sometimes we just differ in how we go about it.

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Edited March 19, 2023 by ...

[HappyChristian]

10 minutes ago, Brother Stafford said:

I certainly meant no disrespect, nor did I mean it to be a jab at anyone.  I was just sharing a bit of scripture that I thought fit.  I apologize if it was the wrong thing to do. 

Please, stay with us.  This really is a helpful place.

Thank you for clarifying, Bro. S. I'm glad it wasn't meant as a jab. Sharing the scripture was not the wrong thing to do, at all! Sometimes, though, when emotions have become involved, things can be taken in a way not intended. No fault on either side, it just happens.

[Thief on the Cross]

Thank you @HappyChristian, and @Brother Stafford, for clarifying things for me.  

 

[Martyr_4_FutureJoy]

On 8/27/2018 at 2:44 PM, Thief on the Cross said:

A friend and I were discussing this .   She attends a different church a Brethen Assembly.   They are very conservative,  close to IFB in practice and standards, at least her assembly is.  Well they have this woman that attends every once in awhile.   She dresses , well like the world,  the bible would call it a harlot.   Anyway, she is unsaved as of yet.   She wears what my friend says is "cleavage first" and a short skirt.    I asked has anyone said anything to her?   She said, no we just warmly welcome her.   Well I thought that  was really great.  But the truth is Im not so sure what my church would do.  We rarely have visiters that dont belong to another church.  Im not sure what would happen if she came to ours. I personally would welcome her, but others where I attend may do differently.    Some are very protective of their families,  and rightly so.    Opinions on what you might do?   

Is it opinions you are seeking actually, or actions, details, to know what is done ? 

 

One or more times,  when a woman came to an assembly improperly attired,  she was perfectly calmly and peacefully led to another room or area where the proper clothing was available and was (willingly) used (put on).

A multitude of time, when a woman came to an assembly improperly attired (often the wife of the pastor, or leading music ministry),  it was not even thought of (by the  leaders or the group) as sinful,  and ongoing as sin was planted and nurtured at every assembly, more people fell or were led onto this path of destruction,  

instead of anything Christlike, beneficial, helpful or healing.

[Martyr_4_FutureJoy]

This at first glance seemed a good thing...

 

On 9/6/2018 at 4:57 PM, Thief on the Cross said:

I have a solution for the debate on clothing. We should all go back to wearing tunics like the bible times.   Yes Im being silly,  but honestly I would be all for it.  I wouldn't have to think about what to wear.  No one could judge another about their spiritual state based on what their wearing.   And comfortable!!  Im mean what could be more comfy.   

 

then devastatingly to me,  this immediate next insidious blatant departure from KJV character >

 

On 9/6/2018 at 4:57 PM, Thief on the Cross said:

I understand everyones point of veiw to some extent.   As far as bikinis .... I   maybe if you decided to hold a service on the beach, then perhaps. 

 

as such has caused millions (or billions?)  to go into error and sin often without ever any thought of repentance (turning to God for His Healing Help and HIs Salvation).

[Martyr_4_FutureJoy]

On 9/11/2018 at 7:03 PM, Thief on the Cross said:

My answer was in keeping with the original post and discussion.   I do not understand the point of the proverb being posted in any other context.    If it was not directed at the woman of the OP , I dont see the point othervthan to cause contention,    im to sick and tired (literally) to go around in circles .   I was hoping to have civil discussion and fellowship on this site as Im shut in quite alot.   I dont think this is the place for me.   

There is apparently little effort used to censor the wicked or the sinful or the misleading visitors or members.   It is like going to the grocery store - be aware that not everyone is able or even inclined to search out the truth ,  and anything or anyone you /we/ meet must be evaluated as directed in Scripture.   i.e. nothing is as it seems is a true proverb (whether directly in the Bible or not),  and in the way Scripture reveals 'all men are liars' (and worse).   Do not judge by what the (physical) eyes can see,  but judge with a righteous judgment (the Father's judgment , accept His Way, as revealed by Him in His Word).   

One point you made ,  you'd like it if we dressed as they did in the Bible (times). Yes  , that would be better than it is anywhere in the usa except where they do still dress as in the Bible times, as the Bible directs and instructs Godly living.

However, you followed it with a mention of maybe wearing bikini would be okay if a church service was on a beach.   That is not good nor faithful testimony.

[Martyr_4_FutureJoy]

At least she did blush.   God says somewhere "MY PEOPLE have forgotten how to blush".  (that is a very bad thing to happen,  apparently after years or decades or longer sliding into sin more and  more)

 

On 8/30/2018 at 2:31 PM, Brother Stafford said:

Letting the world set the standards for when we draw the line in our churches is a dangerous thing because of the ever lowering of standards of decency.   Again, since many people no longer know what is appropriate to wear in to a church, they need to be taught.  As I said above, we are to be understanding, to a certain degree, with new converts and visitors, but not to the point of allowing unacceptable immodesty.

@Brother Staffordquote continued: 

"I also find it interesting that some of the strongest push-back I receive on this issue is from female church members.  When I have invited non believers as guests, often they ask my what they should wear, but if they don't ask, I will just tell them that the men usually wear suits and the women wear loose fitting, high neckline dresses that come below the knees when seated.  I have never had any of my guests balk or complain at all.  They always seem to understand and respect it.

Also, requiring a certain standard is also to make sure that the guests are not uncomfortable.  As a man, I would feel incredibly uncomfortable being the only one in a t-shirt and jeans.  I know that women feel equally uncomfortable when they are the only one under dressed.  I attended a Baptist friend's wedding years before I was saved.  My girlfriend, at the time, was going to meet me there.  Being raised Catholic, I thought I should wear a suit, but she showed up wearing a tight black dress that came to her mid thigh and high heels.  I don't know if I have ever seen another woman blush as much as she did.  She was so uncomfortable that she asked me if she could wear my suit coat and she asked me if we could leave the second the ceremony was over.  Had my friend taken a moment to make sure we were on the same page, or had I made sure she knew how to dress for a church, we could have saved my girlfriend a tremendous amount of humiliation.

I have heard a handful of stories, mostly from women, that tell of a visiting female guest being spoken to about her attire and that that guest never returned.  I have heard the same scenario illustrated, time and time again, that if we hold to such standards, then visitors will be so offended that they shall return again no more.  I have never witnessed it happening, but even if a visitor, who was dressed too immodestly for church, got so offended by a kind and loving explanation of the dress requirements that they never returned, I have no problem with that.  If they are put off by such a reasonable request, they probably were not in the frame of mind to get much out of the service anyway. 

We are not to lower our standards for unbelievers.  Many IFB churches have adopted worldly CCM music for their services to appeal to more people.  Some have even started being okay with bible versions, other than the KJV being used by members. Churches in almost every denomination have full scale coffee shops and there are even some that have actual Starbucks in them.  Standards slip a little bit at a time and never stop falling unless intentional action is taken to stop it and/or reverse it.  We are not to lower our standards to accommodate the world."

[Martyr_4_FutureJoy]

On 8/30/2018 at 2:31 PM, Brother Stafford said:

We are not to lower our standards for unbelievers.  Many IFB churches have adopted worldly CCM music for their services to appeal to more people.  Some have even started being okay with bible versions, other than the KJV being used by members. Churches in almost every denomination have full scale coffee shops and there are even some that have actual Starbucks in them.  Standards slip a little bit at a time and never stop falling unless intentional action is taken to stop it and/or reverse it.  We are not to lower our standards to accommodate the world.

"We" are at a time already that the standards of the KJV Bible are not even known nor taught nor accepted by most groups,  as sin has gotten deep inroads into people's lives in and out of churches.  What is a lie is called the truth,  while what is true is called a lie,  and few are able to distinguish the difference at all.

[farouk]

1 Corinthians 10.32 says: "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God".

I'm all for modesty. But there comes a point when a local church can become so legalistic, it is as if they have paraphrased 1 Corinthians 10.32 to say, instead: "Give offence, both to the Jews, and to the Gentiles, and to the church of God" if everyone from all those dispensational categories is driven away even before the service starts...

On 8/29/2018 at 5:14 PM, Thief on the Cross said:

I was told of a church that had spare neck ties at the door, if you showed up without one you were given one to put on.   

Generally speaking, the equivalent for neckties for men is widely acknowledged as earrings for women, right?

I wonder if that same local church kept a box of earrings for any woman who "dared" come in without earrings in..

(So what would you think of such a "rule", @HappyChristian? )

 

Edited September 11, 2021 by farouk

[HappyChristian]

On 9/10/2021 at 9:29 PM, farouk said:

1 Corinthians 10.32 says: "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God".

I'm all for modesty. But there comes a point when a local church can become so legalistic, it is as if they have paraphrased 1 Corinthians 10.32 to say, instead: "Give offence, both to the Jews, and to the Gentiles, and to the church of God" if everyone from all those dispensational categories is driven away even before the service starts...

Generally speaking, the equivalent for neckties for men is widely acknowledged as earrings for women, right?

I wonder if that same local church kept a box of earrings for any woman who "dared" come in without earrings in..

(So what would you think of such a "rule", @HappyChristian? )

 

I don't know why you tagged me particularly, but I'll answer...I think it would be ridiculous. I've never in all my life heard of an equivalency between men's ties and women's earrings, so the comparison doesn't work for me.

That said, I don't agree with having neckties at the door to give to men who aren't wearing them. I have no issue with having extra ties available if a man needs one, but not as a requirement for everyone. 

[farouk]

I see in this article that conservative business wear can include neckties for men and earrings for women:

 

https://work.chron.com/dress-part-sales-professional-3443.html

 

There are probably numerous other sources which might give broadly the same idea.

 

To me (imho) the idea of keeping a box of ties which men entering a church building are compelled to wear is bizarre.

 

If an Asian businessman visiting from his country came to an office in North America wearing a  perfectly smart suit but no necktie, to buy something from a company, no one would give him a hard time.

IMHO, if someone comes into a service in order to hear the Word of God and is not wearing a necktie, it would be odd for anyone to want to give him a hard time, as if his desire to hear the Word of God is supposedly authenticated only at the moment he puts on a necktie.

Edited September 13, 2021 by farouk
Added sections

[farouk]

PS: @HappyChristianAs I believe Kitagrl said quite a while ago, double pierced ears are so widespread and imho if some Christian women think similarly of them as did Kitagrl, then if there is no big deal in their minds, there need be no big deal in anyone else's, either.

(Or else conservative, Biblical churches can quickly start resembling controlling cults...)

2c...