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    • By 1Timothy115 in Devotionals
         11
      Psalms 119:1-8                                         Sep. 5 - Oct. 2, 2019
      1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
      2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
      3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
      4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
      7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
      8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
      The following verse stood out to me...
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      At first glance it seemed to me this person’s soul is poured out with intense desire to have God’s direction in keeping His Word.
      I made a small wood fire in our backyard for my granddaughter, Julia, since she would be staying overnight with us. My wife and Julia stayed outside at the fire for about half an hour. Then, I found myself alone to watch the fire die out on a particularly lovely evening. So I took my verse from above and began to repeat it for memorization. As I repeated the verse, I tried to contemplate the words and apply them to what I was seeing around me. 
      The moon and stars were out now peering through the scattered clouds above.
      [Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.]
      Thought 1         
      The moon has stayed his course since the day God created him, also the stars, obeying the statutes directed by God from the first day they were created. Can you imagine God’s direction to the Moon and stars, “moon you will have a path through the sky above the earth, stars you will occupy the firmament above the moon and be clearly visible in the cloudless night sky.”
      Then, the trees, grass, even the air we breathe obey the statues God gave them from the beginning. None of these creations have souls, none have hearts, none have intelligence, but they all observe God’s statutes, His instructions for their limited time on earth.
      Thought 2
      What if we were like the moon, stars, trees, grass, or the other creations which have no soul? We would be directed to keep God’s statutes without choosing to keep them. This is not the image of God, there would be no dominion over other creatures, or over the earth. We would not be capable of experiencing the joy and peace of learning the love of God
      Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
      Thought 3 (October 2, 2019)
      Is the psalmist pleading God to force God’s statutes to become the man’s ways? No, he is speaking of his own failure in keeping God’s statutes and his desire to keep them, very much like Paul in Romans 7:14-25.
      God doesn’t work through force to turn men from their ways that they would desire His statutes or desire God Himself. Men must reject (repent) put aside his own ways and voluntarily seek God and His statutes.

What would you do?

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17 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

I don't know what else to say.  That attitude is unscriptural, ungodly and completely lacking in compassion.  I'm done here.

"Unscriptural"...I quoted Galatians 5:22-23.

"Ungodly"...saying that a Christian should exhibit the fruit of the Spirit as found in Galatians 5:22-23

"Lacking in compassion"...saying a Christian should endeavor to exhibit the fruit of the Spirit as found in Galatians 5:22-23.

What I see is a bunch of men refusing to take responsibility for their own thoughts and actions...kind of like when Adam blamed Eve. 

 

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I have a solution for the debate on clothing. We should all go back to wearing tunics like the bible times.   Yes Im being silly,  but honestly I would be all for it.  I wouldn't have to think about what to wear.  No one could judge another about their spiritual state based on what their wearing.   And comfortable!!  Im mean what could be more comfy.   

I understand everyones point of veiw to some extent.   As far as bikinis and Speedos go.  I personally cant see anyone entering a church wearing one,  unless their intention was to offend.   Or maybe if you decided to hold a service on the beach, then perhaps. 

I do believe that the IFB does put more pressure on women to be modest than men.   I see way to many men with their pants far to snug , And I have Never heard anything preached at them.   Alot of women now a days , (and its an awful thing) are addicted to pornography as well.   I do believe we are all accountable to one another and should help each other to not sin.   But it can go overboard,  thats why  so many of the Arab nation have their women wear burkas.    When we take all responsibility away from men for watching their eyes and controlling their thoughts, it puts a heavy burden on women and allows men to believe they are not responsible for their actions.    

So many times when a Christian man falls in adultery,   what I hear is more preaching about covering up directed toward women.  The man is talked about as a poor brother that fell.   I find it disturbing.     

 Im all for modesty ,  I believe that I do dress modest , even when I do wear pants.   I see others will disagree with me.   And I know that many in my church feel Im less sanctified and a lesser christian because I dont see things their way.   I guess that's just the way it will have to be unless the Lord tells me different.    I do understand that everyone has their own personal convictions,  and I do respect that.    

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Thief on the Cross said:

So many times when a Christian man falls in adultery,   what I hear is more preaching about covering up directed toward women.  The man is talked about as a poor brother that fell.   I find it disturbing.     

Yes! It seems that men are given a pass...they just can't help it. 

I work in a male-dominated industry. Yes, I dress fairly modestly most of the time, yet...it is not my responsibility to keep some man from losing self-control. I see many men wearing things that I might consider inappropriate...like the guys who walk home from the pool in wet swim suits that leave nothing to the imagination. I may notice it, but it doesn't cause me to "lust" after them. There's only ONE man that I go completely ga-ga over...just one. I've been married to him for a long time.

This whole thing over pornography, "modesty", etc. is just an excuse for not exercising self-control. Personally, I have NEVER had the urge to look at pornography. It's just not something I'm interested in. I don't watch "chick flicks", I don't read romance novels either. I find them a waste of my time. Now, if there's a good sci-fi movie or series on, or a good drama, or something with lots of explosions and car chases, I'm there. My reason for not being interested in those things is simple...sex is not a spectator sport. 

I spoke with my husband about this last night and read him some of the posts. Poor guy's eyes rolled so far back into his head I think he saw his own brain. Something about needing to grow up, learning respect, and yes, developing self control were in his comments. We're talking about a retired 24 year sailor here. 

So, for all you men who are so fragile that the glimpse of a shoulder or a curve can turn you into a boiling pot of lust, it's not the woman's fault, it's your own. Seeing women as human beings that are not property to control will go a long way to resolving your lust issues. 

Edited by Jim_Alaska
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Let us get this Biblically correct:

1.  If a saved man lusts after a woman (that is not his wife), it is a wicked sin against the Lord his God and Savior.  It does not matter if the woman is dressed immodestly or modestly.  That man committed sin against the Lord, and HE is at fault before the Lord.  (This principle would be true in reverse for a saved woman who lusts as well.  However, the specific passage of Scripture in mind sets its focus upon men; therefore, I have done the same.)

2.  If a saved woman dresses immodestly within a public arena (not in the privacy of her relationship with her husband), it is a wicked sin against the Lord her God and Savior.  It does not matter if a man lusts after her or not, or even if a man is actually present who might lust after her.  That woman committed sin against the Lord, and SHE is at fault before the Lord.  (This principle would also be true in reverse for a saved man who dresses immodestly.  However, the specific passage of Scripture in mind sets its focus upon women; therefore, I have done the same.)

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29 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Let us get this Biblically correct:

1.  If a saved man lusts after a woman (that is not his wife), it is a wicked sin against the Lord his God and Savior.  It does not matter if the woman is dressed immodestly or modestly.  That man committed sin against the Lord, and HE is at fault before the Lord.  (This principle would be true in reverse for a saved woman who lusts as well.  However, the specific passage of Scripture in mind sets its focus upon men; therefore, I have done the same.)

2.  If a saved woman dresses immodestly within a public arena (not in the privacy of her relationship with her husband), it is a wicked sin against the Lord her God and Savior.  It does not matter if a man lusts after her or not, or even if a man is actually present who might lust after her.  That woman committed sin against the Lord, and SHE is at fault before the Lord.  (This principle would also be true in reverse for a saved man who dresses immodestly.  However, the specific passage of Scripture in mind sets its focus upon women; therefore, I have done the same.)

citations please. From the New Testament, with proper cultural and historical exegesis please. 

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Brother Stafford, may I ask how you would respond to the original question.  Please understand Im not trying to argue with you.  I believe by your responses that you love the church and its people.   I know we dont see some things the same,  but would like to know your opinion on what would Be the best way to deal with someone dressed like described in the OP.    If you dont want to answer thats fine.  

Also I agree completely that both saved men and women are responsible for their thoughts and actions.   But an unsaved is not in the same way.  They are in bondage held captive by the enemy.  We should first be concerned with their souls , before clothing.    I dont want to forget those the Lord used , some of them were Harlots.  Why was Mary Magdalene drawn to the Lord, because he had compasion on her , I believe.    I would have to do the same with soneone thats walked in , in the attire of a harlot.    Maybe its because Im a woman, and one that lived in the world for 36 yrs.  I would like to think as christians we woukd put aside our comfort for a while in hopes that a soul might be saved.    

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Sin by character is wicked.  Sin by definition is any transgression against the will or Word of God.

1.  Matthew 5:27-28 -- "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery.  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in her heart."  Herein our Lord Jesus Christ was NOT cancelling the prohibition against adultery, as if it no longer applied.  Rather, herein our Lord Jesus Christ was revealing that sexual lust in one's heart is equally as offensive in the sight of God as sexual adultery in one's actions.  Clearly the emphasis that our Lord provides is upon the behavior of the male gender (although this does not exclude the application of the principle from the female gender).  Furthermore, the emphasis that our Lord provides is upon the HEART-behavior of the individual, not just upon the outward-behavior of the individual.  The specific HEART-behavior that our Lord confronts and condemns is that of lusting after a woman.  This sinful scenario begins with a look, that carries a purpose or result of lusting within after a woman.  No further action is necessary.  Our Lord clearly states that this internal lusting after the woman is in the sight of God a commission of ADULTERY with her ALREADY in his heart.  She does not have to agree.  She does not have to even know.  How she is attired does not matter.  Our Lord Jesus Christ did not grant any avenue of excuse for the man.  He has already committed a wicked sin against the Lord his God.  Culture is irrelevant; it is a matter of the heart in the sight of the Lord God.

2.  1 Timothy 2:9-10 -- "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works."  Herein we find a New Testament instruction that clearly places its emphasis upon the behavior of the female gender (although this does not exclude the application of the principle from the male gender).  Furthermore, the emphasis of this instruction concerns the external apparel and attire of women professing godliness.  Women of God are required by the Lord our God to adorn themselves in a modest manner.  This is the opposite of a "show-offish" manner.  In that time the most common purpose for showing-off concerned one's material wealth or physical beauty.  Thus the passage provides such examples of showiness as "broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array."  However, the precept for "modest apparel" is all inclusive, encompassing any manner of showiness.  Even so, in our time another common purpose for showing-off concerns one's sexiness and sexual attraction.  This also would be contrary to the precept for modest apparel.  Yet the passage does not emphasize only the matter of external apparel, but also indicates that a woman's choice of modest apparel should be founded upon a modest spirit, "with shamefacedness and sobriety."  Such would be equivalent to the "meek and quiet spirit" of 1 Peter 3:4, "which is in the sight OF GOD of great price."  Finally, the passage emphasizes that women of God are to pursue the spiritual adornment and attractiveness of good, godly works.  Thus a woman of God is to be filled with a Spirit-filled attitude of modesty and meekness, to be externally adorned with modest apparel and attire, and to be spiritually adorned with good works.  Certainly, the culture may change its fashions of showiness; however, the precept against showiness remains in any cultural setting.  For a woman of God to transgress any part of this instruction is for her to commit a wicked sin against the Lord her God.

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15 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sin by character is wicked.  Sin by definition is any transgression against the will or Word of God.

nice try, not buying it. I specifically requested biblical support for your opinions on clothing and how a woman's "immodest dress" directly causes a man (any man) to sin. I requested citations, proper exegesis and looking at the cultural and historical context. You went off on a tangent. That doesn't work with me. Try it again. 

 

15 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Women of God are required by the Lord our God to adorn themselves in a modest manner. 

Modest how? Outwardly, or with a gentle spirit? I can dress in the most "modest" way imaginable and yet be immodest by calling attention to how modest I am. 

Also, in that quote, where's the idea that men would "stumble"? 

15 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Furthermore, the emphasis that our Lord provides is upon the HEART-behavior of the individual, not just upon the outward-behavior of the individual.  The specific HEART-behavior that our Lord confronts and condemns is that of lusting after a woman.  This sinful scenario begins with a look, that carries a purpose or result of lusting within after a woman.  No further action is necessary.  Our Lord clearly states that this internal lusting after the woman is in the sight of God a commission of ADULTERY with her ALREADY in his heart.  She does not have to agree.  She does not have to even know.  How she is attired does not matter.

Hmm....there's that pesky idea of self-control again. 

I'm currently wearing a scoop neck, short-sleeved top with appropriate underthings, and a skirt that goes to mid-calf. Some random guy might get turned on by the lumps on my chest that can't be hidden unless I wear a tent. Is it my problem he goes nuts? Nope. It's not. My physical attributes do not exist just to make some guy get hormonal. 

Again, a man's reaction to my clothing is not my problem. HE needs to discover that my existence is not to blame for whatever thoughts go popping into his head. 

But...men are convinced (by the church) that they're nothing more than meat sacks of uncontrollable hormones. If you're silly enough to buy that, you've just lowered yourself to being an animal. Animals can't control their lusts. Men can. 

PS...I broke my sons of saying "I couldn't help it" very early in their lives. They were taught they were fully responsible for every word and action in their lives. I broke them of blaming someone or something else too. My response to "He/She made me...." was this: "Was someone holding a gun to your head and forcing you to do/say whatever it was? No? Then you did it because you wanted to do it." They take full responsibility for everything they do, even if it's something they shouldn't have done. 

Edited by Saved41199
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2 hours ago, Thief on the Cross said:

Brother Stafford, may I ask how you would respond to the original question...

 

On 8/27/2018 at 3:44 PM, Thief on the Cross said:

Well they have this woman that attends every once in awhile.   She dresses , well like the world,  the bible would call it a harlot.   Anyway, she is unsaved as of yet.   She wears what my friend says is "cleavage first" and a short skirt... Opinions on what you might do?   

If a woman was dressed as you described, either myself or someone else given the task (preferably another woman), would speak to her in the same manner as if she entered in a bikini or her undergarments and tell her that we would love to have her attend our services but that she needs to wear something more appropriate.  If she doesn't understand what that means, the person speaking with her would give her examples of what would be acceptable.  We would make sure to repeat that we are looking forward to fellowshipping with her (or him).  This would be done with kindness.

If they are offended by that and decide not to return, like I have said before, I have no problem with that.  We are not responsible for making sure every lost person comes to Christ.  We are responsible for sharing the Gospel with them.  However, just as I would not enter a lingerie store or a strip club in order to share the Gospel, I would not allow the Lingerie store or strip club into a church. 

Jesus ate with publicans and sinners (Mark 2:13-17), but He didn't invite them to the temple.  In fact, Jesus got quite angry at the temple:

Quote

(John 2:13-17) "¶ And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, {14} And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: {15} And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables; {16} And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise. {17} And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up."

I wonder if that caused any of the bystanders (or , perhaps Roman or Greek visitors) to not want to return or listen to what He had to say.  He also had quite a few harsh words to say to the scribes and the Pharisees while at the temple (Mt. 23, Mt. 24:1) that I am sure may have put many visitors off.

Quote

(Luke 9:3-6) "And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece. {4} And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart. {5} And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them. {6} And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where."

He was telling His disciples to share the Gospel everywhere, but that if they are rejected, to not dwell on it and to move on.  This is my feeling about visitors in churches.  They are welcome, but they cannot be disruptive in dress or behavior.  If that offends them, let them go on their way.  If they can't handle being told that they need to dress appropriately, then how are they going to handle hearing some of the convicting preaching about sin and Hell?

P.S. It is my personal opinion that churches should use caution when allowing visitors to attend.  I believe that the majority of the soul-winning of the lost should be done outside of church.  I feel strongly that members should only invite guests that they have spoken with and who have shown at least some sort of interest in the things of God.  There are plenty of things that believers can hear preached and can understand, but that would confuse or put off the still lost.  There have been instances where visitors from other churches or even other denominations have caused discord among existing members.  These are a few examples why I believe we should use caution with visitors, and, as I said, it is only my opinion.

P.P.S. It just occurred to me that I can't recall guests and visitors being mentioned in the epistles.  Now I want to go see if I can find some verses about the subject.

 

Edited by Brother Stafford
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31 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

nice try, not buying it. I specifically requested biblical support for your opinions on clothing and how a woman's "immodest dress" directly causes a man (any man) to sin. I requested citations, proper exegesis and looking at the cultural and historical context. You went off on a tangent. That doesn't work with me. Try it again. (emboldening added by Pastor Scott Markle)

Well, the emboldened part of your quote above is where you have your failure in relation to my earlier posting.  My earlier posting NO WHERE indicated that a woman's immodest dress CAUSES a man to sin, or that she is AT ALL responsible for his sin.  I have NO NEED to support that opinion, specifically because it is NOT my opinion.  Rather, my earlier posting indicated that a man is at fault for sin against the Lord his God through lust REGARDLESS of the woman's behavior.  You might want to read again, as follows:

2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

1.  If a saved man lusts after a woman (that is not his wife), it is a wicked sin against the Lord his God and Savior.  It does not matter if the woman is dressed immodestly or modestly.  That man committed sin against the Lord, and HE is at fault before the Lord.  (This principle would be true in reverse for a saved woman who lusts as well.  However, the specific passage of Scripture in mind sets its focus upon men; therefore, I have done the same.) (emboldening added by Pastor Scott Markle)

Furthermore, my earlier posting also indicated that a woman is at fault for sin against the Lord her God if she wears immodest apparel, REGARDLESS of whether a man chooses to lust after her or not.  You might want to read again, as follows:

2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

2.  If a saved woman dresses immodestly within a public arena (not in the privacy of her relationship with her husband), it is a wicked sin against the Lord her God and Savior.  It does not matter if a man lusts after her or not, or even if a man is actually present who might lust after her.  That woman committed sin against the Lord, and SHE is at fault before the Lord.  (This principle would also be true in reverse for a saved man who dresses immodestly.  However, the specific passage of Scripture in mind sets its focus upon women; therefore, I have done the same.) (emboldening added by Pastor Scott Markle)

My additional posting, as per your request, provided the two Biblical passages wherein the two Biblical commands are provided for the two positions that I presented in my previous posting.  The man in point #1 has committed sin because he transgressed the command of Matthew 5:28.  The woman in point #2 has committed sin because she transgressed the command of 1 Timothy 2:9-10.  It really does not matter what any other person may or may not do.  Breaking the respective command in each case IS SIN.

By the way, in my earlier posting there was also NO hint of BLAME SHIFTING.  Each individual is responsible before the Lord God for his or her OWN behavior, whether it be obedient or disobedient to the respective command of God's Word.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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1 hour ago, Brother Stafford said:

P.S. It is my personal opinion that churches should use caution when allowing visitors to attend.  I believe that the majority of the soul-winning of the lost should be done outside of church.  I feel strongly that members should only invite guests that they have spoken with and who have shown at least some sort of interest in the things of God.  There are plenty of things that believers can hear preached and can understand, but that would confuse or put off the still lost.  There have been instances where visitors from other churches or even other denominations have caused discord among existing members.  These are a few examples why I believe we should use caution with visitors, and, as I said, it is only my opinion.

So you have to show your membership card and secret decoder ring to get in the door? 

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On 8/9/2018 at 7:28 PM, Alan said:

I Timothy 3:15, “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”

The “house of God” that Paul is referring to the local assembly of the believers. The Apostle Paul is admonishing Timothy to behave himself in the local assembly of believers; the church. The local church was an assembly in an area of a community. It was the visible assembly of the saints in the New Testament. The church may be in a house, a rented building, or a building that was bought for the purpose of the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

In 1 and 2 Timothy Paul the Apostle give Timothy, and every saint in the New Testament, instructions “how” to behave himself in the local assembly of believers in the church. 

 

 

All visitors are cordially welcomed to visit churches.

All of the churches that we have started we have welcomed all folks, with all types of backgrounds, with opened arms.

All people should learn "how" they should behave in the "house of God." The church is, or at least should be, "...the house of God." The invisible head of the New Testament church is the Lord Jesus Christ and the pastor is his under-shepherd. The godly Pastor (please note the word 'godly'), knows the difference between 'modest' apparel and 'immodest' apparel.  

The "Progressive" churches, liberal churches, and many other churches in our Laodicean Age, are not teaching the saints, nor the sinners, "how to behave in the house of God." Part of the reason is that they are not 'godly.'

Those saints who refuse (after careful teaching),to learn "how to behave in the house of God," should not be in a position of authority in the church nor represent the church in any fashion.

Included on "how to behave in the house of God," is: our speech, our behaviour, our dress, our actions, our doctrines, our attitudes, and our compassion shown towards others.

 

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8 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

So you have to show your membership card and secret decoder ring to get in the door? 

Yes.  That is exactly what I am saying.  We're not actually a church.  We're just using that as a front to push Ovaltine.

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1 hour ago, Saved41199 said:

So you have to show your membership card and secret decoder ring to get in the door? 

Sarcastic comments such as this are unbecoming to Christians. I, for one, can do without them and would encourage your future comments written in a godly manner. 

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Well I guess there are differing opinions on how an unbeliever should be treated .  I guess we will all have to answer to the Lord for what we do.   

Also another thing that I wonder is are we supposed to be erecting large buildings to hold our meetings in.  Is this building the "house of God"?  Or are we the house of God.   Is God dwelling there if we are not?     Why do we put up signs, with service times,  special events and such.   Or do you have "everyone welcone" .  Is it true?    What I believe reflects how I treat unbelievers, because I was one.  

We had a man who would come in stinking of alcohol,  he was not disruptive,   but he stunk.   We were happy he was there.   He heard the gospel many times over a few months.   We bring a boy often , who also smells badly .   We pick him up and need to put the windows down he smells so awful.    His parents couldnt care less.    He never bathes or has clothing washed.   We have washed his clothing a few times  when we brought him home and given him clothing, but they quickly become like the rest, as he never takes them off.     We believe we are doing the right thing bringing him to church or including him in activities.    This would also be considered poor behavior.    Why are certain things ok or acceptable so they can be reached and not others.      I would never say to him he cant attend unless he cleans himself up first.   He doesn't know any better .    I also believe the same of the Lady who attends in what she believes is a nice outfit.   

 

 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Thief on the Cross said:

Well I guess there are differing opinions on how an unbeliever should be treated .  I guess we will all have to answer to the Lord for what we do.   

Also another thing that I wonder is are we supposed to be erecting large buildings to hold our meetings in.  Is this building the "house of God"?  Or are we the house of God.   Is God dwelling there if we are not?     Why do we put up signs, with service times,  special events and such.   Or do you have "everyone welcone" .  Is it true?    What I believe reflects how I treat unbelievers, because I was one.  

We had a man who would come in stinking of alcohol,  he was not disruptive,   but he stunk.   We were happy he was there.   He heard the gospel many times over a few months.   We bring a boy often , who also smells badly .   We pick him up and need to put the windows down he smells so awful.    His parents couldnt care less.    He never bathes or has clothing washed.   We have washed his clothing a few times  when we brought him home and given him clothing, but they quickly become like the rest, as he never takes them off.     We believe we are doing the right thing bringing him to church or including him in activities.    This would also be considered poor behavior.    Why are certain things ok or acceptable so they can be reached and not others.      I would never say to him he cant attend unless he cleans himself up first.   He doesn't know any better .    I also believe the same of the Lady who attends in what she believes is a nice outfit.   

Sister,

Please understand that I myself do NOT stand in complete agreement with Brother Stafford on this matter.  Nevertheless, I would recognize that your comparative examples above are something like comparing "apples to cucumbers."  Smelling badly is NOT a moral issue.  Dressing immodestly (toward that which God's Word defines as "nakedness") IS a moral issue.  The two issues are NOT an equivalent comparison.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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3 minutes ago, Thief on the Cross said:

Well I guess there are differing opinions on how an unbeliever should be treated .

No, I believe we all agree that an unbeliever  should be treated with as much dignity and respect as anyone else.  With regard to our subject of modesty in church, we can uphold standards without treating people poorly.

We had a man who would come in stinking of alcohol,  he was not disruptive, but he stunk.   We were happy he was there.   He heard the gospel many times over a few months.   We bring a boy often , who also smells badly .   We pick him up and need to put the windows down he smells so awful.    His parents couldnt care less.    He never bathes or has clothing washed.   We have washed his clothing a few times  when we brought him home and given him clothing, but they quickly become like the rest, as he never takes them off.     We believe we are doing the right thing bringing him to church or including him in activities.    This would also be considered poor behavior.    Why are certain things ok or acceptable so they can be reached and not others.      I would never say to him he cant attend unless he cleans himself up first.      

I agree with how your church is welcoming them, helping them and sharing the Gospel with them.   You mentioned that they are dirty, but made no mention of them being dressed immodestly.  One can be dirty and dressed modestly at the same time.

He doesn't know any better.  I also believe the same of the Lady who attends in what she believes is a nice outfit.   

It is true that many women, adult or youngsters, do not understand what appropriate clothing is.  That is why we teach them.

 

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7 minutes ago, Thief on the Cross said:

Well I guess there are differing opinions on how an unbeliever should be treated .  I guess we will all have to answer to the Lord for what we do.   

Also another thing that I wonder is are we supposed to be erecting large buildings to hold our meetings in.  Is this building the "house of God"?  Or are we the house of God.   Is God dwelling there if we are not?     Why do we put up signs, with service times,  special events and such.   Or do you have "everyone welcone" .  Is it true?    What I believe reflects how I treat unbelievers, because I was one.  

We had a man who would come in stinking of alcohol,  he was not disruptive,   but he stunk.   We were happy he was there.   He heard the gospel many times over a few months.   We bring a boy often , who also smells badly .   We pick him up and need to put the windows down he smells so awful.    His parents couldnt care less.    He never bathes or has clothing washed.   We have washed his clothing a few times  when we brought him home and given him clothing, but they quickly become like the rest, as he never takes them off.     We believe we are doing the right thing bringing him to church or including him in activities.    This would also be considered poor behavior.    Why are certain things ok or acceptable so they can be reached and not others.      I would never say to him he cant attend unless he cleans himself up first.   He doesn't know any better .    I also believe the same of the Lady who attends in what she believes is a nice outfit.   

 

 

 

 

 

Don't stop doing what you're doing. You know, this very thing turned my son off from the last church he was a member of. My son was in charge of the bus ministry at his IFB church and had begun bringing some kids like that. But one day his pastor called him aside to tell him, during "fellowship", to have these kids sit in a separate room and bring them takeout plates AFTER everyone else had gone through the line. When my son later went to him to question him about this, the pastor began a progression of retaliation towards my son and ended up taking  him off the bus ministry. THAT is the "Behavior" which "stinks" in the nostrils of God.

James 2:3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:

Continue treating your lady visitor, and the rest, like honored guests. It is LOVE that draws people to Christ.

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