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    • By 1Timothy115 in Devotionals
         11
      Psalms 119:1-8                                         Sep. 5 - Oct. 2, 2019
      1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
      2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
      3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
      4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
      7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
      8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
      The following verse stood out to me...
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      At first glance it seemed to me this person’s soul is poured out with intense desire to have God’s direction in keeping His Word.
      I made a small wood fire in our backyard for my granddaughter, Julia, since she would be staying overnight with us. My wife and Julia stayed outside at the fire for about half an hour. Then, I found myself alone to watch the fire die out on a particularly lovely evening. So I took my verse from above and began to repeat it for memorization. As I repeated the verse, I tried to contemplate the words and apply them to what I was seeing around me. 
      The moon and stars were out now peering through the scattered clouds above.
      [Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.]
      Thought 1         
      The moon has stayed his course since the day God created him, also the stars, obeying the statutes directed by God from the first day they were created. Can you imagine God’s direction to the Moon and stars, “moon you will have a path through the sky above the earth, stars you will occupy the firmament above the moon and be clearly visible in the cloudless night sky.”
      Then, the trees, grass, even the air we breathe obey the statues God gave them from the beginning. None of these creations have souls, none have hearts, none have intelligence, but they all observe God’s statutes, His instructions for their limited time on earth.
      Thought 2
      What if we were like the moon, stars, trees, grass, or the other creations which have no soul? We would be directed to keep God’s statutes without choosing to keep them. This is not the image of God, there would be no dominion over other creatures, or over the earth. We would not be capable of experiencing the joy and peace of learning the love of God
      Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
      Thought 3 (October 2, 2019)
      Is the psalmist pleading God to force God’s statutes to become the man’s ways? No, he is speaking of his own failure in keeping God’s statutes and his desire to keep them, very much like Paul in Romans 7:14-25.
      God doesn’t work through force to turn men from their ways that they would desire His statutes or desire God Himself. Men must reject (repent) put aside his own ways and voluntarily seek God and His statutes.

What would you do?

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
8 hours ago, Salyan said:

I would modify that a bit to say that women who refuse to wear pants because they consider them to be men’s garments should also not wear culottes. 

If a woman does not wear pants because she considers them to be too form-fitting and immodest, then wearing culottes would not be hypocritical. 

Fully agreed.  IF the position is that Deuteronomy 22:5 forbids ANY pant-wear on women as an abomination against the Lord, then ANY and ALL pants-wear should be included for the sake of Biblical (and apparently -- "spiritual") consistency.  (By the way, without at all seeking to be crass, and praying that this will be taken in the correct spirit -- this would also include such things as PANTyhose and PANTies.)

(For the sake of the moderators, if that last parenthetical is deemed inappropriate for this discussion, let me know; and I will edit it out of the posting.)
 

3 hours ago, swathdiver said:

Somehow we went from wearing culottes to shorts for sports activities.  At least the culottes were modest and identified one as a girl from a distance.

As to the earlier discussion, when folks in my local church tried to school an unbeliever about their immodest dress, without ears to hear with, they were offended and never came back.  Hard lesson.  When I pulled into the parking lot for the first time at our local church, my wife refused to get out of the car, saying it was a cult, all these ladies wearing dresses and long skirts!  We left but I prayed and persisted and we came back and the Lord wrought his Work on my dear wife's heart.  In the pew on a Wednesday night she leaned over and said we're home.  We did not live around women who dressed modestly.  Everything tight and or hanging out is the norm.

I had a job delivering to convenience stores once, it was tough being a child of God and going into those places with the ladies everywhere biblically naked.  I had to keep my thoughts on the Lord continually.  I loved the work but not that aspect, it was terribly stressful and soon after I was injured and could not do it anymore.

When these young ladies dress up, their dresses end barely below their belly buttons and barely the other way too!  Not a whole lot is left to the imagination.  But that is business attire, clubbing attire, its what they wear to weddings and funerals.  When not in dresses they're wearing those active wear skin tight clothes or even less.  Their momma's did too and they know no better. 

 

Only under conviction of the Holy Spirit will they begin to get curious and ask questions and have ears to hear with, then we can help win them for the Lord and get them to dress proper.

Brother "Swathdiver,"

While (I believe) you and I do not hold precisely the same position concerning the "pants-wear on women" issue, I am compelled to commend the above posting with an expression of hearty agreement.  

Praise the Lord for the testimony concerning how the Lord our God worked in the heart of your dear wife.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Some food for thought for those who think ladies wearing trousers is ok.  Who started this?  Who started the trend of women dressing in pants and men's clothing being tailored for ladies?  Why the liberals in Hollywood did beginning in the 1920s in America.  So why would Christians adopt the lifestyle of Hollywood, allowing them to move the ancient landmarks that had been in place since the creation?

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
22 hours ago, swathdiver said:

Some food for thought for those who think ladies wearing trousers is ok.  Who started this?  Who started the trend of women dressing in pants and men's clothing being tailored for ladies?  Why the liberals in Hollywood did beginning in the 1920s in America.  So why would Christians adopt the lifestyle of Hollywood, allowing them to move the ancient landmarks that had been in place since the creation?

This is a guilt by association fallacy.it would be the equivalent of saying that if whoever created the first firearm did so to murder someone, that owning a gun is sinful because of that.

While the intentions behind the agenda for woman to wear pants may have been wrong, today women do not wear pants for the same reasons.

in fact, many of our wedding traditions can be traced back to idolatry and false religious beliefs. Does that make the traditions wrong? I don’t think so.

Cultural traditions can change in meaning, and so can the meaning and purpose of wearing particular articles of clothing.  

Women today as a whole do not wear pants to be masculine or to rebel against gender identity.

I also fail to see in the Bible where landmarks are set out since creation that woman are to wear dresses and men to wear pants. Pastor Markle study showed what the Bible says about clothing, men should be wearing skirts then right? 

Edited by Jordan Kurecki
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
10 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

I can't believe how far from the OP this thread has gone. 

Agreed, and it is partially my fault.  For that I do apologize, and I shall refrain from adding anything further in this thread discussion to the "rabbit trail."

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  • Lady Administrators
2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Agreed, and it is partially my fault.  For that I do apologize, and I shall refrain from adding anything further in this thread discussion to the "rabbit trail."

I honestly don't mind the discussion. We've had it many times here, but each time I learn something new. Mayhap starting another thread would be the answer?

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  • Administrators

I find it interesting that this thread has taken the direction it has. The Op was in regard to a lost woman wearing inappropriate clothing to church. I has now taken a turn for the wearing of suits and ties for members and leaders.

While not strictly off topic, I would still contend for my original reply above that said in effect, "she is lost and we can't, or shouldn't dictate to a visitor how she should dress."

Which is more important for the ministry of our church, what a visitor wears, or the fact that their very attendance might have a saving, life changing influence, resulting in proper Christian qualities?

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
11 hours ago, Saved41199 said:

If a lost person shows up at church, they should be shown the love of Christ, not slammed for their clothing...they're lost, they don't know any better. Perhaps instead of singling out that person or immediately talking trash about their wardrobe, maybe have a member of the congregation reach out to them in love and disciple them.

I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested that we "slam" or "talk trash" about anyone.  Kindly addressing something is a far cry from talking trash.

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  • Moderators
6 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested that we "slam" or "talk trash" about anyone.  Kindly addressing something is a far cry from talking trash.

She's explaining it from the point of view of the visitor, and she's right. To walk up to a first time, possibly unsaved visitor and tell them that they have to change their clothing to visit the building/service, no matter how 'kindly' meant, is just plain rude.  (And kind intentions are no excuse for rude behavior.) The visitor will feel humiliated and unwelcome.  

 

Mod Post: I feel that we're beginning to run around in circles on this. Thief, has your question been answered?  If so, I'd encourage you to consider closing this conversation. If not, by all means, continue. 🌝

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
1 hour ago, Salyan said:

She's explaining it from the point of view of the visitor, and she's right. To walk up to a first time, possibly unsaved visitor and tell them that they have to change their clothing to visit the building/service, no matter how 'kindly' meant, is just plain rude.  (And kind intentions are no excuse for rude behavior.) The visitor will feel humiliated and unwelcome.  

Exactly. I know if I had been spoken to about my clothing the first time I set foot in a church, I'd have never returned. In my pre-IFB days, my primary wardrobe was jeans, concert t-shirts or tank tops and tennis shoes. If I had gone into a church and someone decided to pick on my wardrobe rather than being happy I was at least there, well...my mouth would have gotten the best of me and I'd have never returned. It would have also reinforced the idea I had that Christianity was some exclusive club that only took those who walked, talked, lived a certain way. Fortunately, we were blessed to find a church that did not look down on us because of our situation (pretty much dirt poor and on welfare). We were immediately surrounded by love...and that is what made the difference. 

So, the next time someone shows up at church in raggedy clothing or revealing clothing, understand, they don't know any better and it's not YOUR job to point that out in their first visit. Love them, pray for and with them, and let GOD do what He's good at. Years ago there was a t-shirt that was very popular among the Christian crowd. It said "Fisher of men, I catch them, HE cleans them". There's a lot of profound wisdom in that short, pithy saying. 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
1 hour ago, Saved41199 said:

So, the next time someone shows up at church in raggedy clothing or revealing clothing, understand, they don't know any better and it's not YOUR job to point that out in their first visit.

Just out of curiosity, since I;m assuming that you wouldn't allow someone to come in to your church wearing, to the extreme, as little as a bikini, where would you draw the line to where you would speak to them?  

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
15 minutes ago, Brother Stafford said:

Just out of curiosity, since I;m assuming that you wouldn't allow someone to come in to your church wearing, to the extreme, as little as a bikini, where would you draw the line to where you would speak to them?  

I live in Las Vegas...there are times when you're happy with the bare legal minimum (which ain't much in Sin City). 

In terms of "allowing"...it ain't your church, it ain't my church, it's God's church. 

Now...quit it. 

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  • Members

I have been reading through all the comments and finding them interesting.

  I am still after several years attending an IFB church ,( which I love for the most part) trying to figure out some of the practices.   The dress code has always been one .  You see I attened 2 different churches prior, well actually 3.  The church I was saved in I only attened 3 times as I moved , it was a sovereign grace baptist.    I attened in jeans , no one looked at me differently,  believe me I was looking for it.     After that attended community church and then fellowship baptist.  What I don't undrrstand is why I was never convicted of the Lord or by any church member all 9 yrs about my clothing.   It was never ever mentioned , preached or talked about,  it was a non issue.    When first saved I read and read every spare moment the bible, its all I wanted to do.   You would think the spirit would have convicted me in that time.     It wasn't until attending the IFB that I had ever heard of such a thing , except for cults like Amish or Mennonite.       What I was convicted of though were my thoughts.   I did not want to dress any longer to appear attractive to the opposite sex or to make other women jealous.      Never did that equate to never wearing pants.      Never all those years prior did I ever look at someones outward appearance and judge whether or not I think them to be saved or sanctified.    I hear this alot where I attend, that people can tell your different by the way you dress.    I will be brutally honest here.    I REALLY dont get it.   The preoccupation of clothing with the IFB , the ties the skirts and dresses ,  the whole dressing for the Lord.    Some of the best times with the Lord Im in my PJs.     I find it to be a burden , that has brought me to tears some Sunday mornings as I look for something to wear that won't draw LOOKS in my direction.     I have never felt the pleasure of the Lord in my spirit by anything I have put on my flesh.  

I am concerned for my son with this issue,  I dont want him to be preoccupied with this.  I dont ever want him to look at a person and make a judgement about them by their outward appearance.     I have had to rebuke him several times.   Once he pointed out a man on the road with tattoos and mentioned "how ungodly "  that man is.   It broke my heart.     There are so many wonderful things about our church , but the clothing , outward appearance issues IMO is not one of them.    I sincerely hope I am not offending anyone,  that is not my intention.  Im just speaking from where Im seeing things.  

 

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No, that's a very fair assessment. Honestly, speaking as a person who does tend to judge outward appearances (although I know I shouldn't), I wish I had your disregard for them!  My observance is that the churches, like people, tend to swing to one of two opposite extremes - either the liberal or the legalistic. Either clothes don't matter at all, or they matter too much.

There are several guidelines I think we can defend Biblically.  You made mention of a couple of them in your testimony above.

1. Modest Apparel (1 Tim. 2:9)  This includes
     A. Covering the body appropriately. 
           This principle was set in place by God Himself in clothing Adam & Eve after the fall. There isn't as much clear definition in Scripture as I'd like to have defining modesty, for sure. I like Isaiah 47:2-3 for a (somewhat lopsided) definition. 
    B. Not dressing out of pride or ostentation (gold & pearls & costly array)

2. Not dressing like the opposite gender (Deut. 2:5)
     Much as I would love this verse to apply to all forms of pants -  I really don't think pants are modest at all, unless you're skiing or trapeze walking - I honestly don't believe we can apply it so in this generation. Three generations ago, sure. 

3. Not causing our brother to stumble (Rom. 14:13, 21)
    I think this, here, ought to cause us ladies to watch our clothing. Men are absolutely responsible for their own thoughts, and this must not be corrupted to blame women for men's sins, but if we really care for our brothers, wouldn't we want to give them a break  from everything this world throws at them?

There's one more guideline that I live by, but I'm not sure if it's quite so much a Biblical guideline so much as a cultural one. And that is that in this culture, we wear out best when going to important places or to meet important people. Different people, depending on their background, or current circumstances, may have widely varied levels of 'best', but the point is that they are being respectful and honoring God by dressing up. (this is constrained by the Biblical principles, of course - I have a fancy dress for concerts that would be too ostentatious for church.)

Edited to add: I do absolutely believe that churches and camps, like any other organization, have the right to set dress standards for their workers. If people don't wish to submit to the standards, they are free to not assist in that area. This isn't the same as simply attending. 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

What disturbs me greatly here is the idea of "my church" or "your church". The church does not belong to men...It belongs to Christ. 

A person can wear the "right" clothes, say the "right" things and still have a heart blacker than the night. Yet, that person would be welcomed and accepted in IFB-world over someone who isn't wearing the "right" clothes or saying the "right" things, yet DOES the things that Jesus tells us to do "love one another as I have loved you". 

We, as people, cannot judge hearts. So what if someone shows up in a bikini or speedos? Shouldn't you just thank God that they came to church to hear the Gospel? 

Give it a rest folks...clothing is the LEAST of things we should worry about...

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
13 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

What disturbs me greatly here is the idea of "my church" or "your church". The church does not belong to men...It belongs to Christ. 

A person can wear the "right" clothes, say the "right" things and still have a heart blacker than the night. Yet, that person would be welcomed and accepted in IFB-world over someone who isn't wearing the "right" clothes or saying the "right" things, yet DOES the things that Jesus tells us to do "love one another as I have loved you". 

We, as people, cannot judge hearts. So what if someone shows up in a bikini or speedos? Shouldn't you just thank God that they came to church to hear the Gospel? 

Give it a rest folks...clothing is the LEAST of things we should worry about...

Well to be fair, saying "my church" doesn't necessarily imply the idea of ownership it actually also contains the idea of belonging to something or associations with something. for example, if I say "my school" it doesn't mean I own it, it means I belong to it, that I have membership. Consider similar phrase "my country" or "my nation" "my tribe" etc. 

Yes the church belongs to Jesus Christ, but honestly how many people who say "my church" actually mean that they think it belongs to them. 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
On 9/4/2018 at 7:28 PM, Brother Stafford said:

Just out of curiosity, since I'm assuming that you wouldn't allow someone to come in to your church wearing, to the extreme, as little as a bikini, where would you draw the line to where you would speak to them?  

 

5 hours ago, Saved41199 said:

So what if someone shows up in a bikini or speedos? Shouldn't you just thank God that they came to church to hear the Gospel? 

Give it a rest folks...clothing is the LEAST of things we should worry about...

Thank you for answering my question.  I appreciate you being candid and honest with your position.  What you have seemingly deemed acceptable attire for church attendance is what the Bible calls nakedness (Ex. 20:26, 28:42 &c.).  To have no issue with anyone attending a church while biblically naked, and, essentially, in their underwear, is beyond obscene and is objectively wrong by biblical standards.  I was planning to not speak anymore on this, but this is just plain wickedness.

While I admire your zeal for reaching the lost, what about the saved?  Men have to constantly guard their eyes and thoughts because of the carelessness of immodest women in the world.  Although many saved men experience a certain amount of relief from this issue, being saved does not eliminate the issue entirely.  For many men, church attendance offers a brief respite from the constant barrage of immodest imagery offered by the world.  If a member is struggling with porn addiction, for example, allowing immodestly dressed people into the church would be incredibly cruel to that member.  Cannot they at least have the expectation of a sanctuary when gathering with others to worship God?

This goes for women too.  In my past, I had known many women that spoke very candidly about how certain visual aspects of men cause their thoughts to drift.  Over the years, I have had many women call attention to and compliment, in one way or another, my posterior.  For years now, I have gone out of my way to make certain that my pants completely disguise the shape of that aspect of me, when I am out in public, and I always wear a suit jacket that covers that area while attending church services.  I also keep my tattoos covered and I always wear long sleeve, loose fitting, button down shirts; in church or in public.

Guests should also be able to experience an atmosphere where sexual temptations are eliminated as much as possible.  Immodestly dressed members, or other immodestly dressed guests, can provide a very strong distraction and interfere with them hearing the Gospel being presented. Requiring appropriate clothing from both guests and members is for the benefit of both the guests and members.

Edited by Brother Stafford
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
3 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

While I admire your zeal for reaching the lost, what about the saved?  Men have to constantly guard their eyes and thoughts because of the carelessness of immodest women in the world. 

Ummm....nope. Men need to learn SELF-CONTROL. Seriously. My husband can walk down the Strip and not have a single untoward reaction to any of the lovely ladies hanging out. Men can control their own thoughts. Now, do you think women aren't affected visually? I mean, I'm old, not dead. Yet, I can look at a nice-looking man and not think about anything other than..."gee, nice looking guy". 

I'm sick and tired of men blaming women for their lack of self control. I would point you to Galatians 5:22-23 

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

You do know what "temperance" is, right? It's self-control. 

3 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

If a member is struggling with porn addiction, for example, allowing immodestly dressed people into the church would be incredibly cruel to that member.  Cannot they at least have the expectation of a sanctuary when gathering with others to worship God?

Gee...there's that self-control thing again. It is entirely possible to go through life without being tempted by pornography, need some sort of blocking software or controls on your computer. My husband has done it for at least 21 years. 

 

3 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

Guests should also be able to experience an atmosphere where sexual temptations are eliminated as much as possible.  Immodestly dressed members, or other immodestly dressed guests, can provide a very strong distraction and interfere with them hearing the Gospel being presented. Requiring appropriate clothing from both guests and members is for the benefit of both the guests and members.

No, Christians should be able to develop self-control. Get over it. Women have curves and bumps. Men have certain attributes. That's the way God made us. If it makes you get utterly hormonally irrational, then YOU have the problem. Not me. My husband traveled the world in the Navy. I'm sure he saw all sorts of sights...yet, know what makes him more of a man? SELF-CONTROL. Yes, he went to bars, topless bars...and didn't lose his marbles in them. He came home to me. There has been no pornography in my house for 20+ years. Why? Because he is not interested in other women. Why? SELF-CONTROL. 

Don't blame women for your inability to control your own thoughts. You're not an animal, driven by hormonal lusts. 

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