Eternal Security vs O.S.A.S

[John Young]

5 hours ago, Gregg said:

Salvation can be lost

If you could "lose" or CHOSE TO LEAVE eternal Salvation then an all knowing God would have never given it to you in the first place.

Ephesians 1:4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

[Gregg]

There are two posts here; let me try to respond to both.  Eternal salvation has not occurred.  In fact there are many scriptures that reference that salvation is a process leading to a future event - our salvation (let me know if you want those scriptures).  We tend to speak of it in the past tense under the mistaken assumption that once we have something we never lose it, hence we treat eternal salvation as something we have how and cannot be lost.  Once we are with Christ, what we have will be eternal.  However we have a life to live before God after coming to Christ and the list of warnings throughout the NT, as well as the descriptions of salvation being in the future, make clear that our choice here have consequences.  

On the second post; that is not a scriptural point.  It is an inference made - that is God would never give eternal life if they could lose it.  God chose the Israelites as His people yet not all will be saved.  God also told the Israelites they would all enter into the promised land but they all did not.  God told Hezekiah to put his affairs in order for he would die but he was given 15 more years.  God told Jonah that Ninevah would be destroyed in 40 days but was not.  God told Eli that he and His family would minister before Him forever, but when they refused to honor God, they no longer were able to minister.  In short, if you read through the OT, we see God react to man over and over and over even though He has stated specific things.  Just for the record, this DOES NOT make God untruthful in any way.  It means that God has intentions to do exactly what He said He would but mans actions have consequences after God has spoken.  When those chosen do not act faithfully they are often destroyed, yet God finds someone else through which to fulfill His promises.   This is the essence of the interaction between man and God  (i seem to remember that Calvin understood this).  Finally, just because Christ knows who are his, the counter argument is not true; those who think they are his are not necessarily His for "why do you call me Lord, Lord and not do what i say?".  In scripture Christ has told people that "knew" Christ that "he never knew them" and "i know you not".  There are two ways to read scripture: in the flesh and in the spirit and it is relatively easy to determine which is which.  If we are reading scripture so that we use it to justify ourselves and our actions, we are reading in the flesh.  If we are reading scripture to seek to truly do God's will, then we are reading in the Spirit.   The flesh and the spirit are at odds.  

While you quote scripture (++), those passages must be examined for what they are really teaching; spend a little more time with these brother.  Just as a simple example, what the foreknowledge of God based on?  What is the idea of pluck (harpazo - carried off by force) really mean?  Perhaps you should consider Dan Barker, Marty Sampson, Joshua Harris, (and these are just a few). Finally, you did not state any of the balancing scriptures (let me know if you want those scriptures).  

God does not force us to remain faithful, nor will He welcome into His kingdom those who are committed to rebelling against Him.  God does help us to remain faithful; praise God for that.   He does this through the Spirit and through discipline, but stiff necked people do not always respond to discipline.  That is shown in the OT; hence the warnings in the NT.   However the idea that no matter what we do once we come to God, has no eternal impact is creating more lukewarm and rebellious people than one might believe.  It is THE reason that Christ will tell people that either a) "He never knew them" or b) "I know you not".  Yet these people believe they are saved.

Those who pay selective inattention to warnings of the most High reject what God warns about (credit to Dale Moody). 

I leave you with this teaching to those Christians who were not living faithfully (note it is the man that soweth below and the man who will reap).

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.  

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting"

We can absolutely trust God if we committed to being are faithful even if we occasionally fall.  It is those who want to live their lives the way they want, often in rebellion to God yet still expect to claim His promises which are at risk.    All God's best......

[Jim_Alaska]

2 hours ago, Gregg said:

There are two posts here; let me try to respond to both.  Eternal salvation has not occurred.  In fact there are many scriptures that reference that salvation is a process leading to a future event - our salvation (let me know if you want those scriptures).  We tend to speak of it in the past tense under the mistaken assumption that once we have something we never lose it, hence we treat eternal salvation as something we have how and cannot be lost.  Once we are with Christ, what we have will be eternal.  However we have a life to live before God after coming to Christ and the list of warnings throughout the NT, as well as the descriptions of salvation being in the future, make clear that our choice here have consequences. 

1 John 5:13 (KJV) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Written in the present tense, not a future event.

[DaveW]

 

So in other words you, like everyone else I have asked, cannot answer the simple matter of the names God chose to use for salvation life, but choose instead to sidestep, redefine, and ignore the plain and basic truth.

Eternal life cannot be eternal if it ends for any reason.

Everlasting life isn't and NEVER WAS everlasting if ends for any reason.

And OF COURSE we want Scriptures for your points. We are not interested in Calvin's lies and false doctrines.

[No Nicolaitans]

Gregg, the examples that you've given had to do with earthly/physical happenings. Salvation is spiritual.

Man can do nothing of his own merit or works to earn salvation, nor can his merits or works cause him to remain saved or cause the loss of salvation. His merits and works can make his relationship with God stronger, or his merits and works can break his fellowship with God...but not his relationship with God.

The word "saved" is an interesting word...it is a past-tense verb that defines past, present, and future happenings...

I was "saved" many years ago.

I am "saved" today.

I will be "saved" in the future.

No man can pluck us from his hand...and "no man" includes our self.

Christ said that if any man will come to him, he will not cast them out.

To say that we can lose salvation is to say that Christ is a sinner. Lying is a sin.

[Jim_Alaska]

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

It's not my salvation to lose. The deal (covenant) was made in eternity past between God The Father and God The Son. The ONLY part I have in Salvation is accepting it. Once I accept it there is no provision in God's Word to un-accept it, or discard it.

[Mark Elliott]

I simply would like to ask ,What happened to Adam? Adam was created without sin, he was created pure, he had a personal relationship with God, he talked to God daily, he was without sin and created in the image of God.Adam had eternal life to begin with and was a child of God. God warned him that if he took the forbidden fruit that he would die so this means he had life both physical and eternal. So what happen to Adam? He lost his eternal life .

[Jim_Alaska]

Adam lost his physical life and passed that defect on to all who followed him. There is no scripture that indicates he lost his spiritual life.Therefore our sin causes us to lose our physical life, but cannot take our spiritual life.

[Gregg]

Again, multiple replies answered here.   

1 John 5:13 is true as is all scripture.  While it is true it is rendered in the present tense, the salvation we have now is not the final deliverance; yet this is the only one that matters.  It is the event that counts.  If we are abiding in Christ today, then we currently are working out our salvation with fear and trembling. This is the present salvation.  Yet the eternal salvation is not here.  Our bodies are not eternal; nothing about this world is eternal.  We have not been delivered from sin.  This is why salvation is spoken of in multiple tenses.   So also is the resurrection of the dead. "The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit" and "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory."

Adam died spiritually; that is why we are all born dead spiritually.  Furthermore the Prodigal Son was spiritually alive, sinned and rejected his father and died spiritually, eventually coming back to his senses (and without the Father's pursuit as told) and coming back to life spiritually.  This is what scripture teaches; that is we can die spiritually.  This is shown in many passages including Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:21, Galatians 5:7-8, Luke 8:13, Rev 3:2, etc, etc, etc.  The examples i were to make the point that God does not play games.  When people live in rebellion to him, they have not received His promises.  Hebrews 4 "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it"  

I answered directly the question of eternal life and final salvation.  We do NOT have it yet (not fully).  We will have it in the future assuming we are faithful.  Once it is eternal it is eternal.  That is the truth of the breadth of scripture.  Here are some of the scriptures; let me know if you want them pasted: Luke 21:28; Romans 13:11; Ephesians 4:30; I Peter 1:5; Hebrews 9:27,28.  There are those who will state that eternal life is not eternal life if it can be lost, yet the essence which makes all scripture true is that we have hold on eternal life but not the final event.  For example 1 Timothy 6:19, indicates we must take hold of that which is true life "Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life"  Lay hold is Greek epilambanomai meaning to "struggle to obtain [eternal life]"  "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.   Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus"  

With respect to the post about the usage of scripture above, in some cases, there are errors, in some cases there are interpretations apart from the Greek.  As stated, harpazo is to carry off by force.  We do not carry ourselves off by force.  The essence of the passage is no one else can carry us off (except God).  In other cases, the idea of believing is in the Greek continuous present tense meaning we must keep believing; we must endure.  God is there to help but does not override our will......

There are many many scriptures which address loss of salvation; that is spiritual death.  it is tradition and men listening to men that causes this doctrine to propagate, yet the damage caused by it is untold.  

As i have stated if we are faithful, committed to serving our Lord, trying to obey and do what is right, we have no fear.  Yet any doctrine which  by logical extension assures Christians that no decisions they make on this earth have any effect on a person's salvation are simply leading people into sin and eternal separation from God.  This is the logical extension of the doctrine and most know it.  It causes sin and lukewarmness.  

I leave you with this (factual) blog

Be Ye Holy, even as I have been Ye holy! Thus saith the lord thy God!”, as pastor XXXXXXXXX would proclaim. Holy **I have a potty mouth**, religion is a waste. But this guy teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven.  Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.

Shortly after this was written the person committed mass murder.......

[DaveW]

First point: this is a kjv forum. It is in the rules. Please only quote from the KJV.

Secondly, Jesus was very plainly speaking present tense using the terms everlasting (in these verses) and eternal in respect to salvation life.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 

No amount of maneuvering by you can change this fact.

Either it is eternal or it never was..........

It is very simple.

I believe on Him, I have HAVE eternal life. 

End of story.

If it can be lost, it is not, was not, and never will be eternal nor everlasting.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by DaveW
Phone spelling

[John Young]

The first Adam was Spiritually Safe because he was innocent and righteousness on his own merit before God and then was lost because he fell from his own innocents. This means he could no longer stand before God in his own grace. When we as children lose our innocents we then can no longer stand righteous before God and must submit to another's righteousness.

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

The second Adam still stands in his own righteousness and we who are saved from our fall stand with him in his righteousness and not our own. 

Jude 24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

[Jim_Alaska]

In one post you say "Eternal life does NOT depend on works." And in a post directly before it you say: "As i have stated if we are faithful, committed to serving our Lord, trying to obey and do what is right, we have no fear. "  This is works for salvation if we have to DO anything.

So which is it, works or no works?