Saved in 3 tenses?

[Roselove]

1 minute ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Rose, 

I certainly understood that you were not being rude, and that you were only seeking to clear up some confusion.
 

As far as the time and efforts spent in order to answer your questions (even if they may be "a lot"), in many ways teaching God's truth and answering spiritual questions is the very calling of the Lord our God upon my life.  In many ways such is the very reason that I exist upon this earth.  As long as I can find the time and ability, I shall ever be glad to help in this manner.

I'm glad you understood! I get worried that I come off in a way, that I don't mean to! It's hard, really expressing myself over the internet! Lol! 

But, thank you again. I'm glad that God is using you in this way! 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Concerning the Parable of the Prodigal Son & the Older Brother (Part 1 of 3)

In Luke 15:24 the father of the prodigal son stated concerning his son, “For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.”  Since the father described his son as having been both dead and lost, the question arises concerning how this parable relates to the doctrine of eternal salvation.

Now, for a correct understanding of the parable in relation to the doctrine of salvation, it is necessary to consider the context of the parable in its entirety.  That entire context encompasses all of Luke 15, including a specific circumstance and complaint and a response by our Lord with a threefold parable.  In fact, the threefold parable is delivered by our Lord as His specific response to the complaint that was expressed against Him.  Even so, the contextual circumstance and complaint for the parable of the prodigal son and the older brother is presented in Luke 15:1-2 – “Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.  And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.” 

Thus the context for the parable involves three groups of individuals, as follows: 1) the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, 2) the publicans and sinners, 3) the Pharisees and scribes.  The circumstance for the parable was that the publicans and sinners were drawing near unto the Lord Jesus Christ in order to hear His message.  This circumstance includes three noteworthy elements, as follows: 1) The publicans and sinners were the ones choosing to draw near unto the Lord Jesus Christ (not Christ seeking to be a part of their crowd).  2) The publicans and sinners were drawing near unto Christ specifically in order to hear His message (not in order to influence Him to be in some unified part with them).  3) The message that Christ taught and preached was a call to repentance (as per Matthew 4:17; 9:13).  Thus it appears to be implied in this circumstance that many of these particular publicans and sinners were drawing near unto the Lord Jesus Christ in order to hear His message of repentance and to respond with repentance.

Finally, the complaint of the parable was expressed by the Pharisees and scribes, who murmured against the Lord Jesus Christ specifically because He was receiving these particular publicans and sinners unto Himself and eating with them.  Even so, it is directly in response to this murmuring complaint by the Pharisees and scribes that our Lord Jesus Christ delivered His threefold parable.  As such, the primary point of our Lord’s threefold parable was to defend His reception of the repentant publicans and sinners.

Now, the first two parts of our Lord’s threefold parable are very closely related to one another because they both carry the same basic elements and receive that same explanation by our Lord.  These two parts of our Lord’s threefold parable are found in Luke 15:3-10 – “And he spake this parable unto them, saying, What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?  And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.  And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.  I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.  Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?  And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.  Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.”

In both of these parts to our Lord’s threefold parable, we find the same three basic elements, as follows: 1) something that is lost, 2) the finding of the thing that was lost, 3) a call to joy and rejoicing over the finding of the thing that was lost.  Also for both of these parts, our Lord presented the same basic explanation, which also included three elements, as follows: 1) a sinner in need of repentance (which is represented in the two parts of the threefold parable by the thing that was lost), 2) the repentance of the sinner (which is represented in the two parts of the threefold parable by the finding of the thing that was lost), 3) the joy in heaven in the presence of the angels over the repentance sinner (which is represented in the two parts of the threefold parable by the call to rejoice over the finding of the thing that was lost). 

Even so, we are brought to consider a few details of truth.  First, our Lord did not indicate that the angels themselves are the ones rejoicing.  Rather, He indicated that the rejoicing was done in heaven within the presence of the angels.  So, we might ask – Who is in heaven within the presence of the angels that might rejoice over a sinner who repents?  The answer would be the Lord our God Himself and the saints of the past who have died and are presently in heaven with the Lord God (which would be represented in the two parts of the threefold parable by the friends that are called to rejoice together with the finder of the thing that was lost).  Second, by our Lord’s explanation for these two parts of the threefold parable, we are able to understand that the means by which the Lord our God finds lost sinners is through the repentance of the lost sinner.  In these two parts of the threefold parable, the thing that was lost and then found really did not have the ability to return on its own volition, but had to be found by the “searcher.”  As such, this represents the seeking by the Lord our God after lost sinners.  Yet in our Lord’s explanation, He did not speak about a sinner that was found.  Rather, He spoke about a sinner that repents.  Even so, this indicates the means by which lost sinners are found.  They are found by the Lord our God when they repent.  Third, it is worthy of note that in the first part our Lord made the parable personal unto the murmuring Pharisees and scribes.  He began the parable with the opening phrase, “What man of you . . . .”  Thus our Lord implied that rejoicing over the finding of something precious that had been lost would even be a natural response for the murmurers.  So then, how much more would it be appropriate for the Lord our God to rejoice over the finding of a lost sinner through the means of the sinner’s repentance?  Fourth, in His explanation to the first part of this threefold parable, our Lord revealed that there would be joy in heaven over just one sinner that repents, “more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.”  As such, our Lord revealed how greatly the Lord our God values even a single sinner that comes unto repentance.  Finally, in both parts of our Lord’s threefold parable, He presented that the one who found the thing which was lost called friends to rejoice together over that finding.  Even so, we are able to understand that the Lord our God expects His “friends” to rejoice with Him over any given sinner who repents.

With all of this in mind, we are able to discern the relation of these parts of the threefold parable with the circumstance of Luke 15:1.  First, the thing that was lost represents the publicans and sinners, who were lost sinners in the sight of God.  Second, the finding of the thing that was lost represents the repentance of the publicans and sinners as they drew near unto the Lord Jesus Christ to hear His message of repentance.  Third, the rejoicing over the finding of the thing that was lost represents the response of the Lord our God toward the publicans and sinners who were drawing near unto the Lord Jesus Christ to hear and receive His message of repentance.

The final part of our Lord’s threefold parable is then the part concerning the prodigal son and his older brother.  This part is found in Luke 15:11-32, and it also includes the same three basic elements as the previous two parts.  Thus we understand that our Lord’s explanation for the first two parts of His threefold parable also apply unto this third and final part.  First, in Luke 15:11-16 we encounter the thing that is lost through the sinfully rebellious departure and sinfully riotous living of the prodigal son.  As such, the prodigal son represents the publicans and sinners in their sinful rebellion against the Lord God.  Second, in Luke 15:17-21 we encounter the brokenhearted repentance and return of the prodigal son unto his father.  As such, the repentant prodigal represents the publicans and sinners who were drawing near unto the Lord Jesus Christ to hear and receive His message of repentance.  Third, in Luke 15:20, 22-24 we encounter the joyful response of the father unto his repentant son, wherein the father restores his repentant son unto the fellowship of the family and calls for his servants to rejoice with him over the repentance and return of his son.  As such, the rejoicing of the father represents response of the Lord our God over the repentance of the publicans and sinners as they drew near unto the Lord Jesus Christ. 

Yet this third part of our Lord’s threefold parable includes an element that the previous two parts did not include.  In Luke 15:25-32 this third part includes the bitter anger and murmuring complaint of the elder brother against the father’s reception of and rejoicing over his repentant son.  “Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.  And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.  And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.  And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.  And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: but as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.  And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.  It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.”  Now, although our Lord does not provide a specific explanation for this part, it seems clear from the entire context, beginning with the contextual circumstance and complaint, that the older brother represents the complaining Pharisees and scribes, who murmured against the Lord’s reception of and response toward the repentant publicans and sinners.

So then, what was the relationship of the publicans and sinners and of the Pharisees and scribes toward God the Father?  Within the context of our Lord Jesus Christ’s ministry upon earth, both groups would have been Jews.  As such, both groups were members of God’s chosen people and nation.  Thus within the parable the family relationship of both sons with the father would represent close relationship of the Jews with the Lord God as His chosen people and nation.  Yet both groups also possessed a broken spiritual relationship with the Lord God, such that both groups needed to draw near unto the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior through repentance and faith.  In the parable this is represented for the publicans and sinner through the prodigal son’s rebellious departure from the father, and it is represented for the Pharisees and scribes through the older son’s angry division against the father.  Even so, it is worthy of note that publicans and sinners, as represented by the repentant prodigal, actually did draw near unto the Lord Jesus Christ to receive His message of repentance; whereas the parable ends without any indication that the older brother, who represents the Pharisees and scribes, ever came unto repentance and reconciliation with his father.  As such, the conclusion of our Lord’s threefold parable provided a rebuke against the Pharisees and scribes for their complaint against the Lord Jesus Christ and for their lack of repentance before Him.  Indeed, this would be in union with our Lord’s rebuke against them in the closing portion of Matthew 21:31 – “Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.”

So then, this parable in its entire context does not teach that a child of God can become eternally lost through a rebelliously prodigal lifestyle, such that the prodigal would need to repent and become a child of God again.  Rather, this parable teaches that both groups of Jews, regardless of their relationship with the Lord God as members of His chosen people and nation, needed to draw near unto Christ through repentance and faith.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Concerning the Parable of the Prodigal Son & the Older Brother (Part 2 of 3)

The following two outlines are from messages that I preached concerning the prodigal son and concerning the older brother.  I pray that they will be found to be "good unto the use of edifying."

__________________________________________________

Message #1 – The Way Back to the Father

Luke 15:17-24

 

 Introduction:

 

     A.  Departing from the Father 

           1.  To pursue the way of self 

Luke 15:11-12 – “And he said, A certain man had two sons: And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me.  And he divided unto them his living.”  

           2.  To pursue the way of the world 

Luke 15:13 – “And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.”

            3.  To pursue the way of sin 

Luke 15:13 – “And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.”

     

     B.  Reaping What Is Sown 

Hebrews 11:25 – “Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season.” 

Galatians 6:7-8 – “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.  For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.” 

James 1:15 – “Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”

                                                                                      

           1.  No pleasure 

Luke 15:14 – “And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.”  

           2.  No provision 

Luke 15:15-16 – “And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.  And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.” 

           3.  No help 

Luke 15:15-16 – “And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.  And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.”

 

I.     He Came to Himself – Realizing that it was better to be WITH the father. 

Luke 15:17 – “And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father’s have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!”

 

II.    He Recognized His Sin. 

       A.  I have sinned. 

Luke 15:18 – “I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee.” 

       B.  I am not worthy. 

Luke 15:19 – “And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.” 

       C.  I will serve. 

Luke 15:19 – “And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.”

 

III.  He Returned to the Father. – Draw nigh to God with a broken heart, and He will draw night to you. 

Luke 15;20 – “And he arose, and came to his father.  But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.”  

James 4:8-9 – “Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.  Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.  Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.”

 

IV.  He Confessed His Sin. 

       A.  No excusing himself 

Luke 15:21 – “And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.”  

       B.  No trivializing his sin 

Luke 15:21 – “And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.” 

       C.  No shifting of blame

 

V.   He Was Restored by the Father. 

       A.  Restored to peace 

Luke 15:22 – “But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet.” 

       B.  Restored to blessing 

Luke 15:23 – “And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry.” 

       C.  Restored to fellowship 

Luke 15:24 – “For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.”

 

To hear the sermon as preached, follow the link: https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=13117952482
 

__________________________________________________

Message #2 – What about the Other Brother

Luke 15:25-32

 

 Introduction:

 

     A.  The Conflict 

           1.  The publicans and sinners come 

Luke 15:1 – “Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.”  

           2.  The Pharisees and scribes complain 

Luke 15:2 – “And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.”

 

     B.  The Message 

           1.  Rejoicing when a lost sheep is found 

Luke 15:3-6 – “And he spake this parable unto them, saying, What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?  And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.  And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.”  

           2.  Rejoicing when a lost coin is found 

Luke 15:8-9 – “Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?  And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.”  

           3.  Rejoicing when a lost son is returned repentant 

Luke 15:22-24 – “But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: and bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.  And they began to be merry.” 

           4.  Rejoicing by God the Father when a sinner repents 

Luke 15:7 – “I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.” 

Luke 15:10 – “Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.”

 

I.     The Other Brother Did NOT Agree with the Father. 

Luke 15:24-28a – “Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.  And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.  And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. And he was angry . . . .”

 

II.   The Other Brother Became Angry with the Father. 

Luke 15:28-30 – “And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.  And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: but as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.”

 

III.  The Other Brother Broke Fellowship with the Father. 

Luke 15:28 – “And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.” 

 

IV.  The Other Brother Cared Only about Himself. 

Luke 15:29-30 – “And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: but as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.”

 

V.   The Other Brother Continued in Bitterness against the Father. 

Luke 15:31-32 – “And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.  It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.”

 

Note: The parable ends without any indication of repentance on the part of “the other brother.”  In fact, both brothers departed from fellowship with their father.  The younger son broke fellowship through a sinful lifestyle, whereas the older son broke fellowship through a sinful attitude.  Furthermore, the older son engaged in a broken fellowship while never leaving the father’s house, and while having continued in outward, “religious” service and obedience to the father.

 

 To hear the sermon as preached, follow the link: https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=131171017164

[Roselove]

Thank you for this information! I believe I understand now what Jesus was saying! Thank you very much for explaining this in depth! 

From the help I’ve been getting, I’m seeing how security lines up in Scripture, I believe. The question I had about the Old Testament is this, I’ve noticed there are some things in the Old Test. that God said  in the New Test. that we use as proof for security, now. For instance, we say how, He will never leave us nor forsake us, but God said that in the OT as well, yet they left Him and He was no longer with them. Another one that I thought of was, Jude 1:1, my preacher said that it saying that we are preserved, is one of the proof texts of our eternal security. But, in Psalm 37:28, God says that He preserved them forever. I believe that the OT people didn’t have security like the church does. I know there are probably more examples, but I’m just a little confused as to how we can use things like this as proof texts, if God said it in the OT, but it didn’t assure them of absolute security?

[No Nicolaitans]

While I most certainly believe in eternal security, I don't believe that the immediate context of "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee" is pertaining to salvation. What it pertains to is clearly told...

(Hebrews 13:5-6)

 5  Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. 

 6  So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

 

Why was it said in the Old Testament? Again, the immediate context is clear...

 

(Deuteronomy 31:1-6)

 1  And Moses went and spake these words unto all Israel.

 2  And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day; I can no more go out and come in: also the LORD hath said unto me, Thou shalt not go over this Jordan. 

 3  The LORD thy God, he will go over before thee, and he will destroy these nations from before thee, and thou shalt possess them: and Joshua, he shall go over before thee, as the LORD hath said. 

 4  And the LORD shall do unto them as he did to Sihon and to Og, kings of the Amorites, and unto the land of them, whom he destroyed.

 5  And the LORD shall give them up before your face, that ye may do unto them according unto all the commandments which I have commanded you. 

 6  Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

So in a nutshell, God promised to not fail nor forsake them in their battles while conquering the promised land. Both Old and New Testaments refer to God's protection of his people from others...not salvation.

People take "never leave nor forsake" out of its actual context and apply it to salvation.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

20 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

While I most certainly believe in eternal security, I don't believe that the immediate context of "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee" is pertaining to salvation. What it pertains to is clearly told...

(Hebrews 13:5-6)

 5  Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. 

 6  So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

 

Why was it said in the Old Testament? Again, the immediate context is clear...

 

(Deuteronomy 31:1-6)

 1  And Moses went and spake these words unto all Israel.

 2  And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day; I can no more go out and come in: also the LORD hath said unto me, Thou shalt not go over this Jordan. 

 3  The LORD thy God, he will go over before thee, and he will destroy these nations from before thee, and thou shalt possess them: and Joshua, he shall go over before thee, as the LORD hath said. 

 4  And the LORD shall do unto them as he did to Sihon and to Og, kings of the Amorites, and unto the land of them, whom he destroyed.

 5  And the LORD shall give them up before your face, that ye may do unto them according unto all the commandments which I have commanded you. 

 6  Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

So in a nutshell, God promised to not fail nor forsake them in their battles while conquering the promised land. Both Old and New Testaments refer to God's protection of his people from others...not salvation.

People take "never leave nor forsake" out of its actual context and apply it to salvation.

I agree with Brother McWhorter.  I myself would NOT use Hebrews 13:5 as a proof text for eternal security.

[Roselove]

Okay, I think what you both said about that particular passage, makes sense! 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

13 hours ago, Roselove said:

Another one that I thought of was, Jude 1:1, my preacher said that it saying that we are preserved, is one of the proof texts of our eternal security. But, in Psalm 37:28, God says that He preserved them forever. I believe that the OT people didn’t have security like the church does. I know there are probably more examples, but I’m just a little confused as to how we can use things like this as proof texts, if God said it in the OT, but it didn’t assure them of absolute security?

Sister Rose, 

Concerning Jude 1:1 in relation to Psalm 37:28, it appears that your difficulty is specifically due to your premise -- the premise that Old Testament believers did not possess eternal security as New Testament believers.  I myself disagree with that premise.  I believe that Old Testament believers received eternal justification from God before God just as New Testament believers, and that they were eternally regenerated by the power of God just as New Testament believers.  I would hold that the one major difference between Old Testament believers and New Testament believers is that we enjoy the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, whereas they did not.  As such, in my understanding I separate the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration and the work of the Holy Spirit in indwelling  as two distinct (although related) works.  (Now, it is worthy to note that many Fundamental Baptists would disagree with me on this matter, and that some on this very forum have expressed disagreement with me on this matter.)  Even so, I would hold that Jude 1:1 and Psalm 37:28 BOTH teach eternal security for genuine believers, whether Old Testament or New Testament.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Roselove]

49 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Rose, 

Concerning Jude 1:1 in relation to Psalm 37:28, it appears that your difficulty is specifically due to your premise -- the premise that Old Testament believers did not possess eternal security as New Testament believers.  I myself disagree with that premise.  I believe that Old Testament believers received eternal justification from God before God just as New Testament believers, and that they were eternally regenerated by the power of God just as New Testament believers.  I would hold that the one major difference between Old Testament believers and New Testament believers is that we enjoy the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, whereas they did not.  As such, in my understanding I separate the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration and the work of the Holy Spirit in indwelling  as two distinct (although related) works.  (Now, it is worthy to note that many Fundamental Baptists would disagree with me on this matter, and that some on this very forum have expressed disagreement with me on this matter.)  Even so, I would hold that Jude 1:1 and Psalm 37:28 BOTH teach eternal security for genuine believers, whether Old Testament or New Testament.

I’m interested to know more about why you believe that. I’ve heard some people believe it, but never quite understood where in the OT they came to that conclusion. I appreciate your feedback 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On ‎4‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 12:08 PM, Roselove said:

I’m interested to know more about why you believe that. I’ve heard some people believe it, but never quite understood where in the OT they came to that conclusion. I appreciate your feedback 

Sister Rose,

I do have one more installment concerning the parable of the prodigal son and the older brother.  This installment will concern the applicational usage of the parable concerning the matter of spiritual revival among believers.

However, in relation to the interest that you expressed above, I have a question for you -- When do you believe that eternal regeneration first began to be applied unto believers?  For example, those who do not grant regeneration unto Old Testament believers often place the dividing line at the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, indicating that regeneration is a blessing of the new covenant that began with the shed blood and sacrificial death of Christ, and that blessing of regeneration is empowered by the resurrection of Christ.  Thus they would conclude that the blessing of regeneration could not has been granted before that death and resurrection.  Is this the position that you hold?  Or is your position something different that this?  (Note: The point at which you hold for the beginning of the blessing of regeneration will affect the particular evidences that I might present to the contrary.)

[Roselove]

11 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Rose,

I do have one more installment concerning the parable of the prodigal son and the older brother.  This installment will concern the applicational usage of the parable concerning the matter of spiritual revival among believers.

However, in relation to the interest that you expressed above, I have a question for you -- When do you believe that eternal regeneration first began to be applied unto believers?  For example, those who do not grant regeneration unto Old Testament believers often place the dividing line at the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, indicating that regeneration is a blessing of the new covenant that began with the shed blood and sacrificial death of Christ, and that blessing of regeneration is empowered by the resurrection of Christ.  Thus they would conclude that the blessing of regeneration could not has been granted before that death and resurrection.  Is this the position that you hold?  Or is your position something different that this?  (Note: The point at which you hold for the beginning of the blessing of regeneration will affect the particular evidences that I might present to the contrary.)

Yes, I believe that it started after Jesus’s death and resurrection. The reason I believe that is because it seems that God would cast people away in the OT, if they didn’t obey Him (I’m open to reevaluate that idea, but that’s just what I see when I’ve read in it) and one of the biggest reasons is because I don’t understand why they’d have to obey the law and continue animal sacrifices, if it didn’t take those things, at the time, to keep them under God’s forgiveness. When Jesus died, those things were fulfilled and from my understanding (from what I’ve been being, taught), until we were able to be cleansed through His blood, it was the obeying the law and doing sacrifices while watching for the coming Messiah, that justified them. I know it wasn’t the law obeying and sacrifices, themselves, but continuing to do it symbolically, until Christ came. Also, I believe the people going through the tribulation, won’t have eternal security. There’s a lot of things that cause me to feel that way when I read the NT. I think He’s going to take away His Spirit from the earth but only come amongst His saints, like He did in the OT? Or maybe He was in the world during the OT and and leaves in the tribulation, I believe it was one or the other, I can’t remember every detail right now. I feel like this is the only way I can see eternal security as true in this case, because  otherwise you’d have to take a lot of passages that I’ve been taught are for the tribulation saints and apply them to people who are said to be absolutely eternally secure, and I don’t know if I’d be able to reconcile all of that together in my head. 

Edited April 9, 2018 by Roselove

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Concerning the Parable of the Prodigal Son & the Older Brother (Part 3 of 3)

It is possible to consider and apply the truth of this parable as a singular unit of its own, and thereby to separate it from the context of Luke 15 as a whole.  In such a case, an individual could focus upon the father-son relationship that is presented within the parable, and could view the parable as speaking concerning the relationship of God the Father with His dear children, that is – with those who are His children through faith in Christ.  Even so, the prodigal son would then be viewed as representing believers who go away backward from the Lord our God through a complete lifestyle of worldliness; whereas the older brother would then be viewed as representing believers who go away backward from the Lord our God in heart attitude while maintaining faithfulness in religious practice.  In addition, the primary truth of the parable would be that there is a way of spiritual return and revival through repentance for backslidden believers, and that such repentance is required equally for both a lifestyle of utter worldliness and an attitude of selfish hypocrisy.

Yet within this consideration and application of the parable, the question might arise how a genuine child of God might be “dead and then alive again” and might be “lost and then found,” as per Luke 15:24, 32.  First, it is important for us to recognize that these statements are made as figurative statements by the father himself within the parable.  So then, we may ask – In what way was the prodigal “dead” and “lost” to his father?  Certainly it was not because the prodigal had physically died or necessarily because the father had no idea where his son had gone.  Rather, it was because their relationship of fellowship was broken (“dead” and “lost” to the father) when the prodigal departed to the far country.

Second, we must understand the essential meaning of “death” as presented through God’s Word.  We ourselves have the tendency to think of “death” as a cessation.  The lungs cease breathing.  The heart ceases pumping.  The brain ceases processing.  The body ceases functioning.  The person ceases living.  Yet God’s Word does not present “death” essentially as a cessation, but more so as a separation.  While physical death does mean that the person ceases living in this life, it does not mean that the person ceases living and existing altogether; for the person in the form of soul-spirit continues to “live” and exist in the life to come.  Thus God’s Word defines physical death as the moment when the soul-spirit separates from the physical body.

This principle of separation also defines the second death, the lake of fire. (See Revelation 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8)  The second death is eternal death.  It is not a complete and eternal separation from God altogether, for God Himself IS present in the lake of fire.  First, the Lord our God is infinitely present, and thus present even in the lake of fire.  Second, the lake of fire is a part of creation, “prepared for the devil and his angels” (see Matthew 25:41); and as the One who sustains all creation, the Lord our God is present to sustain the eternal existence of the lake of fire.  Third, the lake of fire is the place wherein the Lord God’s infinite wrath is “poured out without mixture” (see Revelation 14:10-11) and thus the Lord our God is present there in the eternal outpouring of His wrath.  So then, in what manner is the lake of fire a separation?  When Revelation 14:10 indicates that God’s wrath is poured out in the lake of fire “without mixture,” it means that His infinite wrath is not at all in even the smallest manner diluted by God’s goodness, grace, mercy, love, kindness.  This is the eternal separation of the second death, the lake of fire – a complete and eternal separation from any experience whatsoever at all in God’s goodness, grace, mercy, love, and kindness.

This principle of separation also defines the spiritually lost condition of the unsaved, who are “dead in trespasses and sins.” (See Ephesians 2:1)  This means that they are the children of sinful disobedience and spiritual darkness (see Ephesians 2:2, 5:8), being separate from the family of God.  This means that they are without Christ as their Savior, without hope of a heavenly home, and without God as their heavenly Father. (See Ephesians 2:12)  This means that they are completely separated “from the life of God” through the spiritual blindness of their hearts. (see Ephesians 4:18)  Their spirit is dead.  This does not mean that their spirit is non-existent.  Rather, this means that on the level of their spirit, they are completely dead to God in sin.  They are completely separated from any spiritual ability to have spiritual fellowship with God the Father.

So then, is there a Biblical manner in which the children of God might experience spiritual deadness?  Speaking to the children of God, Romans 8:12-13 gives answer, “Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”  At the moment of faith in Christ for salvation, a believer is regenerated at the level of the spirit.  The old spirit, that was spiritually dead to God and completely “corrupt according to the deceitful lusts” (see Ephesians 4:22), is crucified with Christ and removed; and a new spirit, “which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness” (see Ephesians 4:24) replaces that old spirit.  Even so, at the level of the spirit, the believer is a new creation in Christ Jesus, such that the old spirit is completely passed away, and the believer’s spirit is completely made new. (See 2 Corinthians 5:17)  Yet while living upon this earth, the believer still retains his or her sinful flesh, the principle of selfishness within the believer’s soul. (See Romans 7:17-18, 23)  Thus every single moment of this life a war rages within the believer’s soul.  This war rages between the believer’s regenerated spirit in union with the indwelling Holy Spirit and the believer’s sinful, selfish flesh. (See Galatians 5:17)  Indeed, this war rages over controlling influence upon the believer’s soul, encompassing the motivations of the believer’s heart, the thoughts of the believer’s mind, the feelings of the believer’s emotion, and the decisions of the believer’s will. (See 1Peter 2:11) 

Even so, when a believer walks after the influence of his or her sinful, selfish flesh, that believer experiences a spiritual deadness in his or her daily walk. (See Romans 8:13)  On the other hand, when a believer walks after the influence of the indwelling Holy Spirit, that believer experiences abundant spiritual life in his or her daily walk. (See Romans 8:13)  However, the spiritual deadness that a believer experiences when walking after the influence his or her sinful, selfish flesh is not on the level of the believer’s spirit, but is only on the level of the believer’s soul.  The believer’s regenerate spirit is created after God’s own likeness in perfect righteousness and holiness, whereby the believer is a partaker of the divine nature. (See Ephesians 4:24 & 2 Peter 1:4)  In addition, the believer’s spirit is indwelt by God the Holy Spirit. (See Romans 8:16)  This regenerated spirit cannot be corrupted by sin, and thus cannot experience spiritual deadness.  However, the believer’s soul still needs to be transformed unto the perfect character of Christ through the process of sanctification. (See Romans 12:2 & 2 Corinthians 3:18)  Thus the believer CAN experience sinful corruption in the character of the soul and CAN experience spiritual deadness at the level of the soul.  This spiritual deadness would be defined as a separation from the moment-by-moment fellowship of God at the level of the believer’s soul. (See 1 John 1:6)  Indeed in the realm of a believer’s daily walk, that believer could become “dead” and “lost” to the fellowship of God the Father.  Yet there is a way back to the fullness and abundance of God’s blessed fellowship.  That way back is by means of broken hearted repentance.  Even so, the parable of the prodigal son and the older brother could be viewed and applied in order to communicate this principle of repentance.

In conclusion, I would list the four realms of “death” as follows:

1.  Physical Death – impacting an individual’s physical life upon this earth, being the separation of the soul-spirit from the body.

2.  Eternal Death (the second death) – impacting an individual’s whole person for eternity, being the separation of the individuals from any part in God’s goodness, grace, mercy, love, kindness, so as only to experience the judgment of God’s infinite wrath forever.

3.  Spiritual Death – impacting an unbeliever’s spirit (and thereby also the individual’s soul), being the complete separation of the individual’s spirit from the life, family, and fellowship of God, so as to be the children of sinful disobedience and spiritual darkness.

4.  Soulish Death – impacting a believer’s soul (but not the believer’s spirit), being a separation from the blessed and abundant fellowship of God in the believer’s daily walk (but not a separation from the believer’s family relationship with God).

It is worthy to notice that in every one of these cases, the foundational cause for the “death” element is sin.  Even so, James 1:15 declares, “Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth for sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”  This principle is a spiritually universal principle that affects both believers and unbelievers.  In fact, in its context James 1:15 was written to believers concerning their daily spiritual walk.

[Roselove]

On 4/17/2018 at 5:33 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Concerning the Parable of the Prodigal Son & the Older Brother (Part 3 of 3)

It is possible to consider and apply the truth of this parable as a singular unit of its own, and thereby to separate it from the context of Luke 15 as a whole.  In such a case, an individual could focus upon the father-son relationship that is presented within the parable, and could view the parable as speaking concerning the relationship of God the Father with His dear children, that is – with those who are His children through faith in Christ.  Even so, the prodigal son would then be viewed as representing believers who go away backward from the Lord our God through a complete lifestyle of worldliness; whereas the older brother would then be viewed as representing believers who go away backward from the Lord our God in heart attitude while maintaining faithfulness in religious practice.  In addition, the primary truth of the parable would be that there is a way of spiritual return and revival through repentance for backslidden believers, and that such repentance is required equally for both a lifestyle of utter worldliness and an attitude of selfish hypocrisy.

Yet within this consideration and application of the parable, the question might arise how a genuine child of God might be “dead and then alive again” and might be “lost and then found,” as per Luke 15:24, 32.  First, it is important for us to recognize that these statements are made as figurative statements by the father himself within the parable.  So then, we may ask – In what way was the prodigal “dead” and “lost” to his father?  Certainly it was not because the prodigal had physically died or necessarily because the father had no idea where his son had gone.  Rather, it was because their relationship of fellowship was broken (“dead” and “lost” to the father) when the prodigal departed to the far country.

Second, we must understand the essential meaning of “death” as presented through God’s Word.  We ourselves have the tendency to think of “death” as a cessation.  The lungs cease breathing.  The heart ceases pumping.  The brain ceases processing.  The body ceases functioning.  The person ceases living.  Yet God’s Word does not present “death” essentially as a cessation, but more so as a separation.  While physical death does mean that the person ceases living in this life, it does not mean that the person ceases living and existing altogether; for the person in the form of soul-spirit continues to “live” and exist in the life to come.  Thus God’s Word defines physical death as the moment when the soul-spirit separates from the physical body.

This principle of separation also defines the second death, the lake of fire. (See Revelation 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8)  The second death is eternal death.  It is not a complete and eternal separation from God altogether, for God Himself IS present in the lake of fire.  First, the Lord our God is infinitely present, and thus present even in the lake of fire.  Second, the lake of fire is a part of creation, “prepared for the devil and his angels” (see Matthew 25:41); and as the One who sustains all creation, the Lord our God is present to sustain the eternal existence of the lake of fire.  Third, the lake of fire is the place wherein the Lord God’s infinite wrath is “poured out without mixture” (see Revelation 14:10-11) and thus the Lord our God is present there in the eternal outpouring of His wrath.  So then, in what manner is the lake of fire a separation?  When Revelation 14:10 indicates that God’s wrath is poured out in the lake of fire “without mixture,” it means that His infinite wrath is not at all in even the smallest manner diluted by God’s goodness, grace, mercy, love, kindness.  This is the eternal separation of the second death, the lake of fire – a complete and eternal separation from any experience whatsoever at all in God’s goodness, grace, mercy, love, and kindness.

This principle of separation also defines the spiritually lost condition of the unsaved, who are “dead in trespasses and sins.” (See Ephesians 2:1)  This means that they are the children of sinful disobedience and spiritual darkness (see Ephesians 2:2, 5:8), being separate from the family of God.  This means that they are without Christ as their Savior, without hope of a heavenly home, and without God as their heavenly Father. (See Ephesians 2:12)  This means that they are completely separated “from the life of God” through the spiritual blindness of their hearts. (see Ephesians 4:18)  Their spirit is dead.  This does not mean that their spirit is non-existent.  Rather, this means that on the level of their spirit, they are completely dead to God in sin.  They are completely separated from any spiritual ability to have spiritual fellowship with God the Father.

So then, is there a Biblical manner in which the children of God might experience spiritual deadness?  Speaking to the children of God, Romans 8:12-13 gives answer, “Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”  At the moment of faith in Christ for salvation, a believer is regenerated at the level of the spirit.  The old spirit, that was spiritually dead to God and completely “corrupt according to the deceitful lusts” (see Ephesians 4:22), is crucified with Christ and removed; and a new spirit, “which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness” (see Ephesians 4:24) replaces that old spirit.  Even so, at the level of the spirit, the believer is a new creation in Christ Jesus, such that the old spirit is completely passed away, and the believer’s spirit is completely made new. (See 2 Corinthians 5:17)  Yet while living upon this earth, the believer still retains his or her sinful flesh, the principle of selfishness within the believer’s soul. (See Romans 7:17-18, 23)  Thus every single moment of this life a war rages within the believer’s soul.  This war rages between the believer’s regenerated spirit in union with the indwelling Holy Spirit and the believer’s sinful, selfish flesh. (See Galatians 5:17)  Indeed, this war rages over controlling influence upon the believer’s soul, encompassing the motivations of the believer’s heart, the thoughts of the believer’s mind, the feelings of the believer’s emotion, and the decisions of the believer’s will. (See 1Peter 2:11) 

Even so, when a believer walks after the influence of his or her sinful, selfish flesh, that believer experiences a spiritual deadness in his or her daily walk. (See Romans 8:13)  On the other hand, when a believer walks after the influence of the indwelling Holy Spirit, that believer experiences abundant spiritual life in his or her daily walk. (See Romans 8:13)  However, the spiritual deadness that a believer experiences when walking after the influence his or her sinful, selfish flesh is not on the level of the believer’s spirit, but is only on the level of the believer’s soul.  The believer’s regenerate spirit is created after God’s own likeness in perfect righteousness and holiness, whereby the believer is a partaker of the divine nature. (See Ephesians 4:24 & 2 Peter 1:4)  In addition, the believer’s spirit is indwelt by God the Holy Spirit. (See Romans 8:16)  This regenerated spirit cannot be corrupted by sin, and thus cannot experience spiritual deadness.  However, the believer’s soul still needs to be transformed unto the perfect character of Christ through the process of sanctification. (See Romans 12:2 & 2 Corinthians 3:18)  Thus the believer CAN experience sinful corruption in the character of the soul and CAN experience spiritual deadness at the level of the soul.  This spiritual deadness would be defined as a separation from the moment-by-moment fellowship of God at the level of the believer’s soul. (See 1 John 1:6)  Indeed in the realm of a believer’s daily walk, that believer could become “dead” and “lost” to the fellowship of God the Father.  Yet there is a way back to the fullness and abundance of God’s blessed fellowship.  That way back is by means of broken hearted repentance.  Even so, the parable of the prodigal son and the older brother could be viewed and applied in order to communicate this principle of repentance.

In conclusion, I would list the four realms of “death” as follows:

1.  Physical Death – impacting an individual’s physical life upon this earth, being the separation of the soul-spirit from the body.

2.  Eternal Death (the second death) – impacting an individual’s whole person for eternity, being the separation of the individuals from any part in God’s goodness, grace, mercy, love, kindness, so as only to experience the judgment of God’s infinite wrath forever.

3.  Spiritual Death – impacting an unbeliever’s spirit (and thereby also the individual’s soul), being the complete separation of the individual’s spirit from the life, family, and fellowship of God, so as to be the children of sinful disobedience and spiritual darkness.

4.  Soulish Death – impacting a believer’s soul (but not the believer’s spirit), being a separation from the blessed and abundant fellowship of God in the believer’s daily walk (but not a separation from the believer’s family relationship with God).

It is worthy to notice that in every one of these cases, the foundational cause for the “death” element is sin.  Even so, James 1:15 declares, “Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth for sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”  This principle is a spiritually universal principle that affects both believers and unbelievers.  In fact, in its context James 1:15 was written to believers concerning their daily spiritual walk.

Thank you for your explanation, this makes sense. So, I know that our soul has to be saved to go to Heaven, so if our soul is considered dead we can still go to Heaven because our spirit is alive? Is that because we won’t ultimately depart from God, because He forever resides in us? This bit is slightly confusing to me, I just want to make sure I’m understanding that portion, correctly.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, Roselove said:

Thank you for your explanation, this makes sense. So, I know that our soul has to be saved to go to Heaven, so if our soul is considered dead we can still go to Heaven because our spirit is alive? Is that because we won’t ultimately depart from God, because He forever resides in us? This bit is slightly confusing to me, I just want to make sure I’m understanding that portion, correctly.

Sister Rose,

In order to understand an answer to these questions, we must somewhat understand both the difference and the connection between the human spirit and the human soul.  I myself believe that a human individual upon this earth may be described as consisting of three basic parts -- the spirit and the soul and the body.  I believe this based upon the statement of 1 Thessalonians 5:23 -- "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."  (Note: This verse also indicates that God's work of salvation and sanctification which ultimately leads unto glorification encompasses the whole human individual, including spirit and soul and body.)  Based upon how the idea of "soul" is used throughout Scripture, I believe that the human "soul" IS the very essence of the human person.  I further believe that the human soul is given a body in order that the human soul may interact with the physical world, and that the human soul is given a spirit in order that the human soul may interact in fellowship with God.  (Note: Yet because in the lost condition the human spirit is dead to God "in trespasses and sins," an unsaved individual CANNOT at all in any manner experience the spiritual life and fellowship of God, until that individual is spiritually regenerated through faith in Christ as Savior.) 

On the other hand, although I believe that the human soul and the human spirit are separate parts of the human individual, I also believe that these two parts are so closely connected within the human individual that we humans cannot truly distinguish the precise dividing line between them.  In fact, it requires the precise sharpness and discernment of God's own Word itself to distinguish precisely this dividing line between them.  Even so, Hebrews 4:12 declares, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."  As such, I believe that the human spirit, by whatever spiritual character it may have, ALWAYS has a level of influence upon the human soul.  For an unbeliever that human spirit is utterly sinful in its character, and thus has a continual influence of sinful corruption upon the human soul.  Furthermore, since the unbeliever also possesses "the flesh," the sinful principle of selfishness within the soul, the unbeliever only experiences sinful influences from within at any and every given moment.  However, the case of the believer is different.  For a believer the human spirit is regenerated, being created after God "in righteousness and true holiness" (see Ephesians 4:24), and thus has a continual influence of godly direction upon the human soul.  Yet a believer also still retains "the flesh," the sinful principle of selfishness within the soul, which ever influences the believer toward selfishness in contradiction to the godly influence of the believer's regenerate spirit (which is indwelt by Holy Spirit and which stands in perfect union of godly influence with the Holy Spirit).  For this reason a believer ever experiences a raging war within between the godly, righteous influence of the Spirit and the ungodly, selfish influence flesh. (See Galatians 5:17)  

With the above in mind, let us consider your questions:

Quote

So, I know that our soul has to be saved to go to Heaven, so if our soul is considered dead we can still go to Heaven because our spirit is alive?

Indeed, our soul must be "saved" in order to go unto Heaven; and the Lord God accomplishes this "saving of the soul" through the work of sanctification.  Ultimately the Lord our God will perfect this work of soul-sanctification at the moment of the believer's death, thus granting that perfectly sanctified soul-spirit entrance into His presence in heaven.  Furthermore, the Lord our God completes this work of perfect sanctification at that moment because the believer is in Christ through faith and because the believer is thereby a regenerate child of God at the level of the spirit.  The believer's spirit is "dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." (See Romans 6:11)  Therefore, the believer IS a child of God; and as a child of God, the believer shall be made perfectly like unto Christ (see 1 John 3:1-2) and shall receive a heavenly inheritance (see Romans 8:16-17; Galatians 4:7; 1 Peter 1:3-5)  (Note: 1 Peter 1:3-5 directly connects this promised inheritance with our eternal security.)  So then, although a believer might walk in "soul-death" within his or her daily walk upon the earth, that believer ever remains spiritually alive at the level of his or her regenerate spirit.  Furthermore, although a believer might walk in "soul-death" within his or her daily walk upon the earth, that believer's soul will be made perfectly sanctified and alive (having "the flesh," the sinful principle of selfishness, completely removed) at the moment of death and entrance into the heavenly presence of God.

Quote

Is that because we won’t ultimately depart from God, because He forever resides in us?

It is true that a believer cannot depart from God at all whatsoever on the level of his or her regenerate spirit.  Thus it would be true that a believer could never "ultimately' depart from God at THAT level.  However, I believe that a genuine believer can indeed depart from God in a complete lifestyle of rebellion at the level of his or her soul's character and life's conduct.  Such a believer would be one who himself or herself "shall be saved, yet so as by fire," as per 1 Corinthians 3:15.  As such, from human observation such a believer would appear to have completely departed from God unto some manner of selfishness, worldliness, and ungodliness.  However, the truth which is more important is that because the regenerate spirit and the indwelling Holy Spirit resides within the New Testament believer, the Lord our God never disowns His child and never departs from being the heavenly Father of His child. (Note: Even in the parable of the prodigal, there is no indication that the father of the prodigal disowned his son from the father-son relationship.)  Indeed, the Lord our God will depart from walking in moment-by-moment FELLOWSHIP with his disobedient and rebellious children; but the Lord our God never departs from His own faithfulness as the Heavenly Father of His children or from His own responsibility of discipline against His children (see Hebrews 12:6-8).

Edited April 19, 2018 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Roselove]

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Rose,

In order to understand an answer to these questions, we must somewhat understand both the difference and the connection between the human spirit and the human soul.  I myself believe that a human individual upon this earth may be described as consisting of three basic parts -- the spirit and the soul and the body.  I believe this based upon the statement of 1 Thessalonians 5:23 -- "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."  (Note: This verse also indicates that God's work of salvation and sanctification which ultimately leads unto glorification encompasses the whole human individual, including spirit and soul and body.)  Based upon how the idea of "soul" is used throughout Scripture, I believe that the human "soul" IS the very essence of the human person.  I further believe that the human soul is given a body in order that the human soul may interact with the physical world, and that the human soul is given a spirit in order that the human soul may interact in fellowship with God.  (Note: Yet because in the lost condition the human spirit is dead to God "in trespasses and sins," an unsaved individual CANNOT at all in any manner experience the spiritual life and fellowship of God, until that individual is spiritually regenerated through faith in Christ as Savior.) 

On the other hand, although I believe that the human soul and the human spirit are separate parts of the human individual, I also believe that these two parts are so closely connected within the human individual that we humans cannot truly distinguish the precise dividing line between them.  In fact, it requires the precise sharpness and discernment of God's own Word itself to distinguish precisely this dividing line between them.  Even so, Hebrews 4:12 declares, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."  As such, I believe that the human spirit, by whatever spiritual character it may have, ALWAYS has a level of influence upon the human soul.  For an unbeliever that human spirit is utterly sinful in its character, and thus has a continual influence of sinful corruption upon the human soul.  Furthermore, since the unbeliever also possesses "the flesh," the sinful principle of selfishness within the soul, the unbeliever only experiences sinful influences from within at any and every given moment.  However, the case of the believer is different.  For a believer the human spirit is regenerated, being created after God "in righteousness and true holiness" (see Ephesians 4:24), and thus has a continual influence of godly direction upon the human soul.  Yet a believer also still retains "the flesh," the sinful principle of selfishness within the soul, which ever influences the believer toward selfishness in contradiction to the godly influence of the believer's regenerate spirit (which is indwelt by Holy Spirit and which stands in perfect union of godly influence with the Holy Spirit).  For this reason a believer ever experiences a raging war within between the godly, righteous influence of the Spirit and the ungodly, selfish influence flesh. (See Galatians 5:17)  

With the above in mind, let us consider your questions:

Indeed, our soul must be "saved" in order to go unto Heaven; and the Lord God accomplishes this "saving of the soul" through the work of sanctification.  Ultimately the Lord our God will perfect this work of soul-sanctification at the moment of the believer's death, thus granting that perfectly sanctified soul-spirit entrance into His presence in heaven.  Furthermore, the Lord our God completes this work of perfect sanctification at that moment because the believer is in Christ through faith and because the believer is thereby a regenerate child of God at the level of the spirit.  The believer's spirit is "dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." (See Romans 6:11)  Therefore, the believer IS a child of God; and as a child of God, the believer shall be made perfectly like unto Christ (see 1 John 3:1-2) and shall receive a heavenly inheritance (see Romans 8:16-17; Galatians 4:7; 1 Peter 1:3-5)  (Note: 1 Peter 1:3-5 directly connects this promised inheritance with our eternal security.)  So then, although a believer might walk in "soul-death" within his or her daily walk upon the earth, that believer ever remains spiritually alive at the level of his or her regenerate spirit.  Furthermore, although a believer might walk in "soul-death" within his or her daily walk upon the earth, that believer's soul will be made perfectly sanctified and alive (having "the flesh," the sinful principle of selfishness, completely removed) at the moment of death and entrance into the heavenly presence of God.

It is true that a believer cannot depart from God at all whatsoever on the level of his or her regenerate spirit.  Thus it would be true that a believer could never "ultimately' depart from God at THAT level.  However, I believe that a genuine believer can indeed depart from God in a complete lifestyle of rebellion at the level of his or her soul's character and life's conduct.  Such a believer would be one who himself or herself "shall be saved, yet so as by fire," as per 1 Corinthians 3:15.  As such, from human observation such a believer would appear to have completely departed from God unto some manner of selfishness, worldliness, and ungodliness.  However, the truth which is more important is that because the regenerate spirit and the indwelling Holy Spirit resides within the New Testament believer, the Lord our God never disowns His child and never departs from being the heavenly Father of His child. (Note: Even in the parable of the prodigal, there is no indication that the father of the prodigal disowned his son from the father-son relationship.)  Indeed, the Lord our God will depart from walking in moment-by-moment FELLOWSHIP with his disobedient and rebellious children; but the Lord our God never departs from His own faithfulness as the Heavenly Father of His children or from His own responsibility of discipline against His children (see Hebrews 12:6-8).

Wow, that really is very interesting. It kind of helps me understand some of the fellowship verses that many misconstrue as salvation verses. I was asking God last night to help me understand things, I was trying to stay calm and think coherently and His Word was piecing together in my mind. I think the biggest problems I’ve had is truly understanding how to be calm and trust Him while I talk and listen to Him. It’s always been against my nature, I’ve always been such a nervous person, this has definitely been an eye opener to me, lately. I’m eager to see our relationship grow, now that I’m not so anxious about everything.