Saved in 3 tenses?

[Jim_Alaska]

Wow, what a wonderful exposition of this passage bro. Scott. I had never thought of this subject in quite the splendid detail you outlined it as.

I really appreciated  the sound study principle you outlined here: 2.  As we consider the details of this parable, it is important for us to recognize the primary point and principle of the parable.  Every Biblical parable, while including various details of truth, contains a primary principle of truth.

This principle is one that I learned early in my Christian life and has served me well in both study and teaching on all of the Parables. If we always look for the primary truth being taught in a Parable and understand that once we have found it, all other secondary truths only serve to "flesh out the story) (Parable). we will be a long way down the road to a proper understanding of a Parable.

Thank you for this response this morning bro. Scott, i served me well as an unexpected blessing since I cannot attend my church this morning. I had a bad fall a couple of days ago and am only recovering slowly. I'm just not well enough to make the hour and a half dive to church this morning, so I consider your response  a welcome substitute for what I may miss in my own services.

So thank you twice Bro. Scott. May your services be a blessing to your hearers this morning.

[Jim_Alaska]

I have often thought how wonderful it would be if we could convince people of the security we have in Christ once and for all.; to have them become secure in the knowledge that they cannot ever, under any circumstance , lose their salvation. I know, this is an age old problem. But it is one that burdens my heart for others who may, by dwelling on possibly obscure passages that are not even speaking of losing our salvation only serve to confuse them more.

Of course we are always able to show the fallacy of one being able to lose their salvation by sound Scripture application. But how wonderful it would be if that person could hold onto their sound conviction of the security of the believer through all the storms of fear, doubt, false teachers and misunderstanding.

Perhaps it may serve this kind of Christian well if they could just make the Scriptures that show the impossibility of one losing their salvation foremost in their thought processes, they would not be easily swayed. I am thinking that if they could permanently embed, not only the idea, but also certain Scriptures that affirm our security, so that when they even start to become confused or even the slightest doubt creeps in, it is then that the positive Scriptures come front and center.

I am thinking of Scriptures such as these:

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of      Jesus Christ:

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish; neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.

In the light of these Scriptures there are no other verses in the whole Bible that could contradict them, none that could cause anyone to cast aside our security, if they could just make them their own once and for all.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Jim_Alaska
added text

[Roselove]

Thank you both for your comments! Pastor Markle, that makes sense I think. It seems like maybe it’s another instance where someone can misinterperate a fellowship verse with salvation verse, perhaps? The outline you gave seems to fit this understanding. It’s frustrating how difficult it can be, differentiating the two scenarios, sometimes.

Jim, thank you for your comments as well! What you said is also reminding me of the remedy for my issues, learning context and interpretation in the Bible. 

It’s unbelievably difficult for me sometimes, to just grasp these kinds of things, it makes me want to kick my brain!! The life in the mind of an OCD sufferer, is very annoying to say the least. Feels like I’m constantly arguing with another person. But hopefully, this will resolve sooner than later! I believe I’m going in the right direction with the insightful help that I’m getting on here and from a couple of other trusted Christians, as well! 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 minute ago, Roselove said:

Thank you both for your comments! Pastor Markle, that makes sense I think. It seems like maybe it’s another instance where someone can misinterperate a fellowship verse with salvation verse, perhaps? The outline you gave seems to fit this understanding. It’s frustrating how difficult it can be, differentiating the two scenarios, sometimes.

Jim, thank you for your comments as well! What you said is also reminding me of the remedy for my issues, learning context and interpretation in the Bible. 

It’s unbelievably difficult for me sometimes, to just grasp these kinds of things, it makes me want to kick my brain!! The life in the mind of an OCD sufferer, is very annoying to say the least. Feels like I’m constantly arguing with another person. But hopefully, this will resolve sooner than later! I believe I’m going in the right direction with the insightful help that I’m getting on here and from a couple of other trusted Christians, as well! 

Sister Rose,

I desire that my following comment will be taken somewhat seriously, but with a little bit of humor as well; yet I most definitely do not wish to cause any offense.

Now the comment - While I am not clinically diagnosed with OCD, I am an individual who Obsessively Cares about Details, especially in Bible study.  Such is the reason for my lengthy, detailed, thorough, extensive answers to questions.  I simply pray that it is all good to the use of edifying and that it ministers God's grace unto others.

[Jim_Alaska]

48 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Rose,

I desire that my following comment will be taken somewhat seriously, but with a little bit of humor as well; yet I most definitely do not wish to cause any offense.

Now the comment - While I am not clinically diagnosed with OCD, I am an individual who Obsessively Cares about Details, especially in Bible study.  Such is the reason for my lengthy, detailed, thorough, extensive answers to questions.  I simply pray that it is all good to the use of edifying and that it ministers God's grace unto others.

I know, that's your excuse and your a stickin to it. But no matter what the reason, I am thankful for it.

[Roselove]

51 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Rose,

I desire that my following comment will be taken somewhat seriously, but with a little bit of humor as well; yet I most definitely do not wish to cause any offense.

Now the comment - While I am not clinically diagnosed with OCD, I am an individual who Obsessively Cares about Details, especially in Bible study.  Such is the reason for my lengthy, detailed, thorough, extensive answers to questions.  I simply pray that it is all good to the use of edifying and that it ministers God's grace unto others.

Not offended, at all! I think your attention to detail is very helpful! It has helped me piece together things that I don’t know if I could have come to, on my own. I certainly appreciate the time you spend on your studies, they have taught me a lot, so far! 

It’d be nice if my obsessive mind processed things, like yours. You seem to handle it in a way healthier way, than myself. 

Mental illness runs in my family pretty bad. I think I mention this stuff, because my heart is crying for help. I feel so alone at times, the only other person that I really knew personally that struggled like me, was my dad.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Roselove

[Pastor Scott Markle]

16 hours ago, Roselove said:

Thank you both for your comments! Pastor Markle, that makes sense I think. It seems like maybe it’s another instance where someone can misinterperate a fellowship verse with salvation verse, perhaps?

Sister Rose,

In answer to your question above, Yes and No.

If the root of the good olive tree does indeed represent the covenants of promise, then inclusion therein is about opportunity and privilege.  Let us consider a few different scenarios in relation to this matter.

First, let us consider those Israelites who were the first generation in the Lord’s redemption from the bondage of Egypt.  Indeed, they all experienced that divine redemption through their faith in the blood of the Passover lamb, as they all sprinkled its blood upon the door post and lintel.  There is no indication that the death angel entered into any Israelite home that night.  Even so, in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 God’s Word gives the report concerning that very generation of Israelites, “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”  They were all believers in God’s redemption through the blood of the lamb.  They were all under the cloud of God’s glorious presence.  They were all baptized unto Moses through the crossing of the Red Sea.  They all partook of the same spiritual meat and drink, such that they all partook of Christ Himself.  As such, the Lord God entered into the covenants of promise with all of them at Mount Sinai; and those covenants of promise included the “fatness” of the Promised Land.  However, because of their unbelief and disobedience at Kadesh, they were not permitted to enter into the Promised Land and to experience its “fatness.”  Rather, they were required to wander in the wilderness until that generation passed away.  Thus in 1 Corinthians 10:5-6 God’s Word gives further report, “But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.  Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.”  Yet even throughout their wandering in the wilderness, they still had the Lord’s presence with them, the Lord’s provision for them, and the Lord’s protection over them.  Did they have part in the covenants of promise as their root possession?  Did they enjoy the fullness of those promises?  No, they did not, because of their unbelief and disobedience. (See Hebrews 3:7-11)  Yet did they experience some aspects of those promises?  Yes, they did, even throughout their wanderings in the wilderness.

However, the scribes and Pharisees in the time of the Lord Jesus Christ’s earthly ministry present a different case.  Although they were very religious, having “a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.” (See Romans 10:2)  “For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness,” through their religious works of the law, did not “submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.” (See Romans 10:3)  Although they were very religious, they were never believers.  Thus our Lord Jesus Christ pronounced that they were not spiritually the children of God, but that they were of their spiritual father, the devil. (See John 8:42-44)  So then, did they have part in the covenants of promise as their root possession?  Yes, as Israelites they did indeed.  On the other hand, did they experience and enjoy the fullness of those promises?  No, actually because of their rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ, they spiritually fell and were cut off from their covenants of promise as a people (although not completely or permanently).  In fact, the Lord God has now judged them as a people with spiritual blindness “in part.” (See Romans 11:7-11, 25)  This is the “severity of God” toward the Israelites unto which Romans 11:22 makes reference.

Now, the spiritual fall and cutting off of the Israelites as a people has opened a spiritual door for us Gentiles as a people.  Whereas the spiritual opportunities of the Israelites as a people have become quite restricted through the spiritual blindness that the Lord God has place upon them, the spiritual opportunities of the Gentiles has become significantly more readily available.  Now, while the access of the Israelites as people unto their covenants of promise has been significantly restricted, the access of us Gentiles as a people unto those covenants of promise has been offered more freely.  Indeed, we of the wild olive tree have an open opportunity to be grafted into the Israelites’ natural root possession, their covenants of promise.  Yet our part in those covenants of promise does not include the “fatness” of the Promised Land.  Rather, our part in those covenants of promise includes the “fatness” of a promised spiritual LIFE, even as our Lord Jesus Christ revealed in John 10:10, “I am come that they might have LIFE, and that they might have it more ABUNDANTLY.”  Even so, this time of the New Testament church is that time wherein every believer receives the indwelling of God the Holy Spirit from the very moment of faith in Christ for salvation, such that the indwelling Holy Spirit might enable our abundant spiritual living as we submit unto His filling influence and direction.  This is the “goodness” of God toward the Gentiles unto which Romans 11:22 makes reference.

So then, what about us Gentiles who might not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ?  By the record of the New Testament, it seems apparent that a great majority of the Gentiles as a people will indeed reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.  Even so, because of their unbelief and rejection they also may be cut off from access unto the covenants of promise.  In fact, after some point of rejection and rebellion against the gospel, the Lord God may cut off any given Gentile from an opportunity to come unto Christ through faith for salvation.  This is one aspect of the “severity of God” toward the Gentiles about which Romans 11:22 warns.

On the other hand, by the record of the New Testament, it also seems apparent that many of us Gentiles will indeed receive the Lord Jesus Christ through faith as eternal Savior.  As such, we receive full access unto the “fatness” of the promised life that is found within the new covenant of promise.  Yet our experience of that “fatness” is still determined by our faithfulness unto the Lord and by our submission unto the filling influence of the indwelling Holy Spirit throughout our daily walk.  If we do not walk in faithfulness and the filling of the Holy Spirit, we will not be cut off from our place in eternal life, but we will be cut off from the “fatness” of the abundant life.  This also is an aspect of the “severity of God” toward the Gentiles, although less severe, about which Romans 11:22 warns.

[Roselove]

37 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Rose,

In answer to your question above, Yes and No.

If the root of the good olive tree does indeed represent the covenants of promise, then inclusion therein is about opportunity and privilege.  Let us consider a few different scenarios in relation to this matter.

First, let us consider those Israelites who were the first generation in the Lord’s redemption from the bondage of Egypt.  Indeed, they all experienced that divine redemption through their faith in the blood of the Passover lamb, as they all sprinkled its blood upon the door post and lintel.  There is no indication that the death angel entered into any Israelite home that night.  Even so, in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 God’s Word gives the report concerning that very generation of Israelites, “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”  They were all believers in God’s redemption through the blood of the lamb.  They were all under the cloud of God’s glorious presence.  They were all baptized unto Moses through the crossing of the Red Sea.  They all partook of the same spiritual meat and drink, such that they all partook of Christ Himself.  As such, the Lord God entered into the covenants of promise with all of them at Mount Sinai; and those covenants of promise included the “fatness” of the Promised Land.  However, because of their unbelief and disobedience at Kadesh, they were not permitted to enter into the Promised Land and to experience its “fatness.”  Rather, they were required to wander in the wilderness until that generation passed away.  Thus in 1 Corinthians 10:5-6 God’s Word gives further report, “But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.  Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.”  Yet even throughout their wandering in the wilderness, they still had the Lord’s presence with them, the Lord’s provision for them, and the Lord’s protection over them.  Did they have part in the covenants of promise as their root possession?  Did they enjoy the fullness of those promises?  No, they did not, because of their unbelief and disobedience. (See Hebrews 3:7-11)  Yet did they experience some aspects of those promises?  Yes, they did, even throughout their wanderings in the wilderness.

However, the scribes and Pharisees in the time of the Lord Jesus Christ’s earthly ministry present a different case.  Although they were very religious, having “a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.” (See Romans 10:2)  “For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness,” through their religious works of the law, did not “submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.” (See Romans 10:3)  Although they were very religious, they were never believers.  Thus our Lord Jesus Christ pronounced that they were not spiritually the children of God, but that they were of their spiritual father, the devil. (See John 8:42-44)  So then, did they have part in the covenants of promise as their root possession?  Yes, as Israelites they did indeed.  On the other hand, did they experience and enjoy the fullness of those promises?  No, actually because of their rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ, they spiritually fell and were cut off from their covenants of promise as a people (although not completely or permanently).  In fact, the Lord God has now judged them as a people with spiritual blindness “in part.” (See Romans 11:7-11, 25)  This is the “severity of God” toward the Israelites unto which Romans 11:22 makes reference.

Now, the spiritual fall and cutting off of the Israelites as a people has opened a spiritual door for us Gentiles as a people.  Whereas the spiritual opportunities of the Israelites as a people have become quite restricted through the spiritual blindness that the Lord God has place upon them, the spiritual opportunities of the Gentiles has become significantly more readily available.  Now, while the access of the Israelites as people unto their covenants of promise has been significantly restricted, the access of us Gentiles as a people unto those covenants of promise has been offered more freely.  Indeed, we of the wild olive tree have an open opportunity to be grafted into the Israelites’ natural root possession, their covenants of promise.  Yet our part in those covenants of promise does not include the “fatness” of the Promised Land.  Rather, our part in those covenants of promise includes the “fatness” of a promised spiritual LIFE, even as our Lord Jesus Christ revealed in John 10:10, “I am come that they might have LIFE, and that they might have it more ABUNDANTLY.”  Even so, this time of the New Testament church is that time wherein every believer receives the indwelling of God the Holy Spirit from the very moment of faith in Christ for salvation, such that the indwelling Holy Spirit might enable our abundant spiritual living as we submit unto His filling influence and direction.  This is the “goodness” of God toward the Gentiles unto which Romans 11:22 makes reference.

So then, what about us Gentiles who might not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ?  By the record of the New Testament, it seems apparent that a great majority of the Gentiles as a people will indeed reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.  Even so, because of their unbelief and rejection they also may be cut off from access unto the covenants of promise.  In fact, after some point of rejection and rebellion against the gospel, the Lord God may cut off any given Gentile from an opportunity to come unto Christ through faith for salvation.  This is one aspect of the “severity of God” toward the Gentiles about which Romans 11:22 warns.

On the other hand, by the record of the New Testament, it also seems apparent that many of us Gentiles will indeed receive the Lord Jesus Christ through faith as eternal Savior.  As such, we receive full access unto the “fatness” of the promised life that is found within the new covenant of promise.  Yet our experience of that “fatness” is still determined by our faithfulness unto the Lord and by our submission unto the filling influence of the indwelling Holy Spirit throughout our daily walk.  If we do not walk in faithfulness and the filling of the Holy Spirit, we will not be cut off from our place in eternal life, but we will be cut off from the “fatness” of the abundant life.  This also is an aspect of the “severity of God” toward the Gentiles, although less severe, about which Romans 11:22 warns.

I’m going to have to think over this, it’s pretty complex. I’m trying to wrap my head around how this is talking about all of these things at once. 

[Roselove]

On 6/18/2018 at 1:08 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Rose,

In answer to your question above, Yes and No.

If the root of the good olive tree does indeed represent the covenants of promise, then inclusion therein is about opportunity and privilege.  Let us consider a few different scenarios in relation to this matter.

First, let us consider those Israelites who were the first generation in the Lord’s redemption from the bondage of Egypt.  Indeed, they all experienced that divine redemption through their faith in the blood of the Passover lamb, as they all sprinkled its blood upon the door post and lintel.  There is no indication that the death angel entered into any Israelite home that night.  Even so, in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 God’s Word gives the report concerning that very generation of Israelites, “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”  They were all believers in God’s redemption through the blood of the lamb.  They were all under the cloud of God’s glorious presence.  They were all baptized unto Moses through the crossing of the Red Sea.  They all partook of the same spiritual meat and drink, such that they all partook of Christ Himself.  As such, the Lord God entered into the covenants of promise with all of them at Mount Sinai; and those covenants of promise included the “fatness” of the Promised Land.  However, because of their unbelief and disobedience at Kadesh, they were not permitted to enter into the Promised Land and to experience its “fatness.”  Rather, they were required to wander in the wilderness until that generation passed away.  Thus in 1 Corinthians 10:5-6 God’s Word gives further report, “But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.  Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.”  Yet even throughout their wandering in the wilderness, they still had the Lord’s presence with them, the Lord’s provision for them, and the Lord’s protection over them.  Did they have part in the covenants of promise as their root possession?  Did they enjoy the fullness of those promises?  No, they did not, because of their unbelief and disobedience. (See Hebrews 3:7-11)  Yet did they experience some aspects of those promises?  Yes, they did, even throughout their wanderings in the wilderness.

However, the scribes and Pharisees in the time of the Lord Jesus Christ’s earthly ministry present a different case.  Although they were very religious, having “a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.” (See Romans 10:2)  “For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness,” through their religious works of the law, did not “submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.” (See Romans 10:3)  Although they were very religious, they were never believers.  Thus our Lord Jesus Christ pronounced that they were not spiritually the children of God, but that they were of their spiritual father, the devil. (See John 8:42-44)  So then, did they have part in the covenants of promise as their root possession?  Yes, as Israelites they did indeed.  On the other hand, did they experience and enjoy the fullness of those promises?  No, actually because of their rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ, they spiritually fell and were cut off from their covenants of promise as a people (although not completely or permanently).  In fact, the Lord God has now judged them as a people with spiritual blindness “in part.” (See Romans 11:7-11, 25)  This is the “severity of God” toward the Israelites unto which Romans 11:22 makes reference.

Now, the spiritual fall and cutting off of the Israelites as a people has opened a spiritual door for us Gentiles as a people.  Whereas the spiritual opportunities of the Israelites as a people have become quite restricted through the spiritual blindness that the Lord God has place upon them, the spiritual opportunities of the Gentiles has become significantly more readily available.  Now, while the access of the Israelites as people unto their covenants of promise has been significantly restricted, the access of us Gentiles as a people unto those covenants of promise has been offered more freely.  Indeed, we of the wild olive tree have an open opportunity to be grafted into the Israelites’ natural root possession, their covenants of promise.  Yet our part in those covenants of promise does not include the “fatness” of the Promised Land.  Rather, our part in those covenants of promise includes the “fatness” of a promised spiritual LIFE, even as our Lord Jesus Christ revealed in John 10:10, “I am come that they might have LIFE, and that they might have it more ABUNDANTLY.”  Even so, this time of the New Testament church is that time wherein every believer receives the indwelling of God the Holy Spirit from the very moment of faith in Christ for salvation, such that the indwelling Holy Spirit might enable our abundant spiritual living as we submit unto His filling influence and direction.  This is the “goodness” of God toward the Gentiles unto which Romans 11:22 makes reference.

So then, what about us Gentiles who might not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ?  By the record of the New Testament, it seems apparent that a great majority of the Gentiles as a people will indeed reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.  Even so, because of their unbelief and rejection they also may be cut off from access unto the covenants of promise.  In fact, after some point of rejection and rebellion against the gospel, the Lord God may cut off any given Gentile from an opportunity to come unto Christ through faith for salvation.  This is one aspect of the “severity of God” toward the Gentiles about which Romans 11:22 warns.

On the other hand, by the record of the New Testament, it also seems apparent that many of us Gentiles will indeed receive the Lord Jesus Christ through faith as eternal Savior.  As such, we receive full access unto the “fatness” of the promised life that is found within the new covenant of promise.  Yet our experience of that “fatness” is still determined by our faithfulness unto the Lord and by our submission unto the filling influence of the indwelling Holy Spirit throughout our daily walk.  If we do not walk in faithfulness and the filling of the Holy Spirit, we will not be cut off from our place in eternal life, but we will be cut off from the “fatness” of the abundant life.  This also is an aspect of the “severity of God” toward the Gentiles, although less severe, about which Romans 11:22 warns.

I’m going to have to think over this, it’s pretty complex. I’m trying to wrap my head around how this is talking about all of these things at once. 

So, in verse 22 this specifically talking about the blessings at believers, depending on our walk with Him? 

I guess the biggest thing that confuses me is how this portion of Scripture is worded. I feel like if you read it in a simple way, it’d seem pretty straight-forward that if we don’t continue with God, we won’t be in His saving grace, anymore. It seems like a lot of things that appear to say that, if you take it as face value, it seems to go along with that belief. But, if one believes in security, then we have to look at it in a more complex way. 

I realize that there are many complex things in the Bible, being that it’s the Word of the Amazing God. I guess I just have a hard time not reading the Bible like I would any other book. Usually you wouldn’t have to do a lot of deep interperating to figure out what a chapter out of it was trying to say. This is my main struggle, I think.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

12 hours ago, Roselove said:

I’m going to have to think over this, it’s pretty complex. I’m trying to wrap my head around how this is talking about all of these things at once. 

So, in verse 22 this specifically talking about the blessings at believers, depending on our walk with Him? 

I guess the biggest thing that confuses me is how this portion of Scripture is worded. I feel like if you read it in a simple way, it’d seem pretty straight-forward that if we don’t continue with God, we won’t be in His saving grace, anymore. It seems like a lot of things that appear to say that, if you take it as face value, it seems to go along with that belief. But, if one believes in security, then we have to look at it in a more complex way. 

I realize that there are many complex things in the Bible, being that it’s the Word of the Amazing God. I guess I just have a hard time not reading the Bible like I would any other book. Usually you wouldn’t have to do a lot of deep interperating to figure out what a chapter out of it was trying to say. This is my main struggle, I think.

Sister Rose,

I certainly agree that we should read and study God's Word in a straight forward manner.  However, a straight forward reading of this parable about the two olive trees in Romans 11:16-24 leaves us with one very significant question unanswered.  That question is this -- What does the root/trunk of the good olive tree represent?  The passage seems to define what the branches of the good olive tree represent., and it seems to define what the branches of the wild olive tree represent.  On the other hand, while the passage references the root/trunk of the good olive tree four times (and by referencing the tree itself, infers the root/trunk a few additional times), the passage itself does NOT seem to define specifically what the root/trunk of the good olive might be.  Yet defining this representation is QUITE significant for your question.  Certainly, the parable and passage DOES communicate that there is something which might be possessed, but which then might also be lost.  Whatever this something is, it is represented by the root/trunk of the good olive tree.  It is the root/trunk of the good olive tree that the Israelites possess by nature.  It is the root/trunk of the good olive tree from which the Israelites were cut off because of their unbelief (thus a possession lost).  It is the root/trunk of the good olive tree into which we Gentiles might be grafted through faith.  It is the root/trunk of the good olive tree about which the warning is given that we Gentiles might also be cut off after being grafted in (thus the possibility of a possession lost).  It is the root/trunk of the good olive tree into which the Israelites who were cut off might be grafted back in.  Even so, by a straight forward reading of the parable and passage, the "something" that might be either possessed or lost IS the root/trunk of the good olive tree.  So then, we must ask -- What does the root/trunk of the good olive tree represent?  Yet as we read through the passage, it does NOT define this representation for us, which "complicates" our understanding of the passage and parable.  

Now above you said --

Quote

I realize that there are many complex things in the Bible, being that it’s the Word of the Amazing God. I guess I just have a hard time not reading the Bible like I would any other book. Usually you wouldn’t have to do a lot of deep interperating to figure out what a chapter out of it was trying to say. This is my main struggle, I think.

Most certainly, you should read God's Word in a literary manner, like you would any other book.  However, when a given passage itself does not provide the specific information to answer a specific question that we have, further and deeper interpreting is required.  What does the parable and passage reveal straightforwardly --

1.  The root/trunk of the tree (whatever it represents) is holy by character, and thus so are the branches that it contains. (Romans 11:16)
2.  Some of the natural branches (Israelites, as per the immediate context) of the good olive tree were broken off from the root/trunk of the good olive tree. (Romans 11:17)
3.  We Gentiles were grafted into the root/trunk of the good olive tree, and thus partake of the "root and fatness" of that tree along with the natural branches. (Romans 11:17)
4.  Because of this, we Gentiles should not boast against the natural branches (Israelites) because we do not bear the root/trunk of the tree, but it bears us. (Romans 11:18)
5.  The natural branches (Israelites) of the good olive tree were broken off because of unbelief. (Romans 11:20)
6.  We Gentiles were grafted into the root/trunk of the good olive tree through faith. (Romans 11:20)
7.  We Gentiles should take warning that if God did not spare the natural branches (Israelites) of the good olive tree, then he might also not spare us Gentiles. (Romans 11:21)
8.  This all reveals the "goodness and severity of God," on the Israelites His severity, on us Gentiles His goodness -- if we Gentiles continue in His goodness. (Romans 11:22)
9.  However, if we Gentiles do not continue in God's goodness toward us, then we also might be cut off from the root/trunk of the good olive tree. (Romans 11:22)
10.  The natural branches (Israelites) who were cut off from the root/trunk of the good olive tree might be grafted back in if they remain not in unbelief, but come to faith. (Romans 11:23)
11.  Indeed, if us Gentiles as the branches of a wild olive tree could be "grafted contrary to nature" into the root/trunk of the good olive tree, then "how much more" might "the natural branches" of that good olive tree be grafted back into "their own olive tree?"

Now, throughout this entire matter the root/trunk of the good olive tree plays a significant part.  What then does the root/trunk of the good olive tree represent?  While the passage does provide us with elements of information about the root/trunk of the good olive tree, it never actually specifies what the root/trunk of the good olive tree represents.  Thus ANY answer that we develop for our understanding of the parable and passage requires some level of conjecture or assumption.  For example, I believe that within your own struggle in relation to the passage, you have made an assumption concerning the representation for the root/trunk of the good olive tree, as follows --

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I guess the biggest thing that confuses me is how this portion of Scripture is worded. I feel like if you read it in a simple way, it’d seem pretty straight-forward that if we don’t continue with God, we won’t be in His saving grace, anymore. It seems like a lot of things that appear to say that, if you take it as face value, it seems to go along with that belief. But, if one believes in security, then we have to look at it in a more complex way. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

That portion in your above statement which I have emphasized appears to reveal your (assumed) understanding concerning that which the root/trunk of the good olive tree represents.  The parable and passage speaks about branches being cut off from the root/trunk (and fatness) of the good olive tree.  Above you speak about being "cut off" from God's saving grace.  Thus you appear to be equating God's saving grace with the root/trunk of the good olive tree.  I myself do not agree with this understanding for the representation of the root/trunk of the good olive tree for the following conjectured (deeper) reasonings --

1.  Whatever the root/trunk of the good olive tree might be, it is the possession of the Israelites naturally, such that they all were attached to it at the first (before they were cut off from it through unbelief).  Yet to me it does not appear Biblically correct to say that God's saving grace is NATURALLY possessed by the all Israelites, but that they might be cut off from that saving grace through unbelief.  Now, I might be able to accept the argument, not that the root/trunk of the good olive tree represents God's saving grace itself, but that it represents the OPPORTUNITY to receive to God's saving grace.  Then the passage would be indicating that the OPPORTUNITY and PRIVELEGE to receive God's saving grace (not the saving grace itself) is the possession of His chosen people NATURALLY, but that they spiritually fell from that greater OPPORTUNITY and PRIVELEGE to receive God's saving grace through their unbelief as a people, such that as a people they are now bound under a heavy cloud of spiritual blindness.  Even so, then the passage would also be indicating concerning the grafting in of us Gentiles, not that we now possess God's saving grace itself, but that we now possess a more ready OPPORTUNITY and PRIVELEGE to receive God's saving grace.  This more ready OPPORTUNITY and PRIVELEGE to receive God's saving grace would be God's goodness toward us Gentiles as a people.  Yet that goodness only continues toward us as a people if we continue in it.  However, if we Gentiles persist in unbelief against God's saving grace, that more ready OPPORTUNITY and PRIVELEGE to receive God's saving grace could be cut off from us also, such that we Gentiles also as a people (or some particular societal structure among us Gentiles) might be bound under the heavy cloud of spiritual blindness as the Israelites.

2.  As per the immediate context in Romans 11:5-6, God's saving grace comes specifically through His GRACE, such that it includes NO requirement of works whatsoever at all.  Yet if we claim (from Romans 11:20-22) that God's saving grace is indeed received initially through faith, but that we must continue in His goodness in order to remain therein without losing it, then we have added some level of "working faithfulness" to the means of God's saving grace.  Then we have -- God's saving grace is received through faith and retained through (working) faithfulness.  Yet Romans 11:6 clearly indicates that if it be at all of works, "then is it no more grace."  Now we have a contradiction within the immediate context of Romans 11.  Yet no such contradiction in God's Word can possibly be, especially within the same immediate context.  An apparent contradiction only reveals that we are in some manner not understanding something correctly.

3.  The primary principle for the parable of the two olive trees is NOT about the matter of eternal security (security established by God's promise) versus faithfulness security (security retained through our faithfulness).  Rather, the primary principle for the parable is a warning that we Gentiles (especially Gentile believers) should not develop a wrong attitude against unbelieving Israelites.  We should not become boastful against them.  We should not become high-minded against them.  We should not become wise in our own conceits against them.  Rather, we should ever walk in the fear of the Lord our God, and should ever retain a spirit of gracious humility in relation to the Israelites as the NATURAL branches of the good olive tree, into which God graciously grafted us within His goodness against our nature.

4.  Romans 11:28-32 provides the conclusion to the matter.  Therefore, its references to the gospel, the gifts and calling of God, and the mercy of God must all fit with unity in relation to our understanding of the parable in Romans 11:16-24.

5.  At least one other interpretive question requires consideration.  Throughout the parable of Romans 11:16-24, plural pronouns are employed for Israelite "branches" that were cut off from the good olive tree, whereas singular pronouns are employed for the Gentile representation in the parable.  So then, do these singular pronouns for the Gentile representation encompass the whole of Gentiles as a singular group; or do these singular pronouns for the Gentile representation reference just a single Gentile individual (possibly, a single Gentile believer).  It also worthy of notice that throughout the rest of the chapter's context, the Gentiles are considered from the plural perspective, just as the Israelites.

Now, above you ask the question --

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So, in verse 22 is this specifically talking about the blessings at believers, depending on our walk with Him? 

 

Truly, the answer to your question is founded directly upon a correct understanding for what the root/trunk of the good olive tree represents.

In my previous postings, I have contended that the root/trunk of the good olive tree represents the covenants of promise that the Lord God originally gave unto the Israelites.

[Roselove]

There’s one more thing that’s been really nagging at me, that I heard. 

The seal of the Holy Spirit is a down payment, but when you get a down payment you can give it back or if you trash the house that someone gave their down payment for, they then legally aren’t obligated to purchase the house and can then get their down payment, back. Brings to mind when the Bible says to respect the our body because the Holy Spirit lives in us. 

Also, that we’re only engaged to Christ, not married yet. So we must be ready for when He comes back, so when Jesus comes, we are found spotless and as a chaste virgin. 

These definitely got me a bit concerned.

[Roselove]

I’ve been struggling a lot, I pray that my mind gets settled about all of this, soon. 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

8 hours ago, Roselove said:

I’ve been struggling a lot, I pray that my mind gets settled about all of this, soon. 

Sister Rose,

First, I shall continue to pray for the settling of your mind on these matters.  Remember that the Lord our God has NOT given to us "the spirit of fear," but has given to us the spirit "of power, and of love, and of a SOUND MIND."  Remember also that it is this very Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit of God, who bears witness with our spirit "that we are the children of God."

Second, meditate much upon the promises of our Lord Jesus Christ in John 6:37-40 concerning those who come to Him in faith for salvation, and upon HIS responsibility and power to fulfill those promises in accord with the will of God the Father.

Third, I recognize that there are still some outstanding questions in this discussion that I have not yet engaged.  Lately I have been focused upon dealing with some false teaching in the forum.  Prayerfully I shall be able to reengage this discussion sometime next week.

[Roselove]

5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Rose,

First, I shall continue to pray for the settling of your mind on these matters.  Remember that the Lord our God has NOT given to us "the spirit of fear," but has given to us the spirit "of power, and of love, and of a SOUND MIND."  Remember also that it is this very Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit of God, who bears witness with our spirit "that we are the children of God."

Second, meditate much upon the promises of our Lord Jesus Christ in John 6:37-40 concerning those who come to Him in faith for salvation, and upon HIS responsibility and power to fulfill those promises in accord with the will of God the Father.

Third, I recognize that there are still some outstanding questions in this discussion that I have not yet engaged.  Lately I have been focused upon dealing with some false teaching in the forum.  Prayerfully I shall be able to reengage this discussion sometime next week.

Thank you, I appreciate it!

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 5/7/2018 at 5:57 PM, Roselove said:

Sorry, one more thing- how does Matthew 10:28 relate to the discussion of the soul we’ve been talking about? It seems like it means more than whether we are doing well on earth/being kept alive, because Jesus says to not worry about the people hurting their bodies, but fear God because He can throw our bodies and souls in hell. Also, the part in this chapter talking about enduring until the end and this being repeated in Matthew 24, I’m a bit confused, because I feel the wording seems to be talking about Christians. These things are making me a little anxious, I was working with my husband about these and he couldn’t figure it out, either. 

Sister Rose,

I do apologize for taking so long to answer this question.  So many responsibilities and commitments.  I have been somewhat overwhelmed lately.

Concerning Matthew 10:28.

First, it is contextually clear that throughout Matthew 10:5-42 our Lord Jesus Christ was speaking to his believing disciples, not to the lost multitudes.  Second, in Matthew 10:28 our Lord Jesus Christ did indeed speak about the soul, not simply concerning a person's life on this earth, but concerning a person's eternal destiny in the life to come.  However, as we consider the truth of Matthew 10:28, it is important for us to recognize precisely what our Lord did say, and thus also what he did not say, and thereby to discern what our Lord intended by that which He said.   

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."  

Herein our Lord did NOT pronounce a judgment upon unfaithful servants.  He did NOT say -- "Fear God lest he destroy both your soul and body in hell."  Our Lord Jesus Christ did NOT pronounce a judgment that God the Father will or even might destroy our soul and body in hell, if we are in some manner not faithful enough.  In fact, herein our Lord Jesus Christ did NOT specify any particular individuals whose soul and body God the Father might destroy in hell.  He did not say -- "Fear him which is able to destroy both YOUR soul and body in hell."  Our Lord Jesus Christ did NOT specifically apply this truth unto His believing disciples.

No, in Matthew 10:28 our Lord Jesus Christ did NOT pronounce a divine judgment.  Rather, in Matthew 10:28 our Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed a divine ABILITY.  In fact, our Lord Jesus Christ revealed a contrast in ABILITIES, between the ability of human persecutors and the ability of the Lord our God.  Yes, in some cases the authority and ability of human persecutors and human government may extend even unto the judgment of death in this life.  They may indeed have the authority and ability of judgment to kill the body.  Yet their authority and ability of judgment can extend no further than this life.  It does not and cannot extend into the life of eternity.  In contrast, our Lord God's authority and ability of judgment extends also into the life of eternity both absolutely and eternally.  So then, when we find ourselves in a place wherein we must choose between these two authorities, we should choose to fear, respect, honor, and obey the greater (yeah, the Greatest) authority.  We should not choose to fear, respect, honor, and obey human authority in contradiction to our Lord God's authority.  Rather, we should choose to fear, respect, honor, and obey our Lord God's authority in contrast to human authority. 

This is our Lord Jesus Christ's exhortation in Matthew 10:28.  With this exhortation it is not His intention to fill us with fear that we might lose our eternal life and be cast into hell.  Rather, with this exhortation it is His intention to instruct and encourage us that we might remain faithful by choosing to fear, respect, honor, and obey God, rather than man.  When we are in the midst of oppression and persecution for our Lord's sake, even possibly unto the judgment of physical death, we will be greatly tempted to fear our human persecutors, and thus to compromise under the persecution.  However, our Lord Jesus Christ intends that we remember the greater and eternal authority of God our heavenly Father, and that we remember the limitations of human persecution.  

So then, is there any implication or Biblical teaching concerning those whose souls and bodies God the Father might destroy with the eternal judgment of hell?  Yes, there is.  In another context the specifically concerns the matter of persecution for our Lord's sake, 2 Thessalonians 1:3-10 declares, "We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; so that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."

Indeed, 2 Thessalonians 1:3-10 is a context concerning persecution for the Lord's sake, just as Matthew 10:16-42.  In 2 Thessalonians 1:3-10 those whose soul and body "shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (in hell) are "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."  It is NOT the believing disciples who might be judged with the destruction of their soul and body in hell.  Rather, it is the wicked persecutors who shall experience this divine judgment.  In fact, 2 Thessalonians 1:10 reveals that in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ's coming, He shall be glorified and admired "in ALL them that believe."  Believers are NOT judged with hell.  Believers enter into the glory of the Lord, so to ever be with the Lord.

With all of this in mind, we might understand the truth of Matthew 11:28 as follows -- "And fear not them [the wicked persecutors] which kill the [YOUR] body, but are not able to kill the [YOUR} soul: but rather fear him [God our heavenly Father] which is able to destroy both [THEIR - THE WICKED PERSECUTOR'S] soul and body in hell."  As such, Matthew 11:28 serves as an exhoration to instruct us unto the right choice in times of persecution, as well as an exhortation to encourage us that the Lord our God WILL vindicate our faithfulness and WILL judge our persecutors.  Their authority and ability of judgment may allow them to kill our bodies, but one day they MUST face the righteous judgment of the Lord our God, whose authority and ability of judgment is absolute and eternal, for how they treated His own.