When the church started. Pentecost or Israel

[DaveW]

2 hours ago, Joe Coley said:

brethren with all humility and truthfulness in my heart , the sole purpose here is that you understand why we ( I) believe what we believe and that even if you disagree we can agree that we disagree and have fellowship and rejoicing over the fact that we could still be cursing and fighting with cue sticks at bubbas bar.(no offence to all the bubbas and their husbands ) but we are fellowshipping over the precious words of God.

Does this mean that no one is allowed to disagree with you in statement, but that we should just ignore the bits that we think are wrong and join together in spite of what are clearly differing doctrines?

Are doctrines not important?

Is fellowship the important thing, in spite of doctrinal differences?

 

I ask this because this is the cry of the ecumenical movement: "Love unites, doctrine divides".

But that is a very dangerous philosophy.

But the Bible says:

2 Timothy 3:16-17
(16)  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(17)  That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
 

The very first thing that the Word of God is good for is Doctrine, not unity. In fact "love" and unity don't even rank a mention in this passage.

I am with the other two gents, that doctrine IS IMPORTANT, and I personally feel that your final paragraph is designed to stop anyone from disputing with you.

(And personally I find your references to Bubba etc to be on the offensive side - I see no need to use such talk on this site.)

 

Oh yeah - and make no mistake - many of us here know exactly "where you are coming from", have looked into it, and come to a decidedly different conclusion to you.

[No Nicolaitans]

I think that after this, I will bow out of this thread...unless something happens that truly moves me to do otherwise.

I have shown (by requesting for others to read at least Deuteronomy chapters 28-30) that the only benefits of keeping the law were physical benefits...not spiritual. The only repercussions for not keeping the law were physical repercussions...not spiritual. I requested for only chapters 28-30 be read; however, read the entire book of Deuteronomy, and you will see that keeping the law only gave physical benefits. Disobeying the law only gave physical repercussions. 

I now request that others read Leviticus 26.

Again, the benefits of keeping the law are physical benefits...not spiritual. The only repercussions for not keeping the law are physical repercussions...not spiritual.

Read Deuteronomy 4. Speaking of which, this one verse from Deuteronomy will lay it out plain...

Deuteronomy 4:40
Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.

Physical benefits...UPON THE EARTH.

Read Deuteronomy 7...

If you want to see what the benefits of keeping the law were, if you want to see what the repercussions of not keeping the law were...then read where the law is recorded. Read what is said about keeping (or not keeping) the law. You will not see one instance...not one time...not one hint that keeping the law had anything whatsoever with spiritual salvation.
 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

According to Romans 8:3 there was something that the law "could not do."  I wonder, according to the immediate context of Romans 8:1-4, if we might discern what that something was.

[TheSword1227]

On 6/3/2017 at 7:42 PM, InSeasonOut said:

I started this topic in response to one of the same topic, of when the church began. It had a lot of replies and instead of reading them all and replying with a large response or multiple comments I decided to use my time to write a study on this subject as im still new here and would like to gain more fellowship. That said, pardon me if these things im bringing up have been covered / answered. Still its good to revisit the doctrines of the Bible and understand where each of us believers are coming from and exhort one another, or correct error in meekness. ( James 3:13 ).

First, I've held the view for a while that the church began at Pentecost, when the disciples were filled with the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:4. - But there is also an interesting verse in John 20:22 where Jesus "...breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:" - This is not the baptism of the Holy Ghost. That happened at Acts 2. Note Acts 1:4-5 "And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. " And 1 Corinth 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. " These scriptures and more show that the baptism of the Holy Ghost (the Spirit) is not with water.

John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth,and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

No one is born again without the Spirit; the baptism of the Holy Ghost. The disciples were not born again until Acts 2. - The disciples were saved but not born again. There were Old Testament saints that had the Spirit, but they were not sealed, no eternal security, not saved by faith alone or by looking forward to the cross or the gospel (which Paul preached). Why? Because the Jews were under the law. (Galatians 3:21-25) Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Now, that's why I believed the church began at Pentecost. They didn't belong to Christ until they had the Spirit of Christ. Now that settles it - the church began at Pentecost - Right?

Wrong. The body of Christ began at Pentecost. - I already showed the answer above when I quoted 1 Corinth 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body..."

But the church is the body of Christ, and the body of Christ is the church. Correct. But the church started before Pentecost (stay tuned) but the church became the body of Christ at Pentecost when they were baptized with the Spirit into Christ as members of his body.  (Hopefully I've at least ruled out the hyper-dispensation teaching by now that it began with Paul)

1 Corinthians 12:27-28 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Now this is where I mention that I believe in "progressive revelation", and now see 27-28 to be another example of it. - As I said the church was before Pentecost (but not as the body Christ) But these verses ; 27-28 cannot be "superimposed" backward into when Jesus first called the 12 disciples / apostles. Meaning God set forth first the apostles in the church at Pentecost. (the church became the body of Christ at Pentecost when they were sealed with the Spirit).

Still it must be said that the Lord Jesus Christ has preeminence as he the foundation and precious corner stone (of the church). Isaiah 28:16 . And Hebrews 3:1 says " Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; ".

For sake of time and space ill quickly reference 1 Corinthians 3:11 ; Colossians 1:18 ; Colossians 2:19 ; 1 Peter 2:16 ; (I came across Job 38:4-7 in my study here but im not sure what to do with it on this topic, if anything... moving on)

Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Sorry Calvinists, you were not personally chosen before you were born to be predestined to heaven. God is no respecter of persons. What God "chose" was His Son to be the way of salvation, before the foundation of the world, so man can enter heaven.

Ephesians 1:22-23 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

I'll again repeat that I believe the body of Christ began at Pentecost, but when did the church begin?

Acts 7:37-39 " This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: 39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, "

Acts 7:44-45 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. 45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;

Now this is where many Bible believers will separate the men from the boys. Hopefully no one here would ever change the text of the Bible (God's word ; KJV). Many "scholars" change the word "church" in the wilderness and remove the name Jesus from verse 45. (Please don't waste my time if you think this is a mistranslation)

To be honest I never personally studied Acts 7:38 "church in the wilderness". I've read it many times, but never spent time on, and even after all this, I need more time on it as this is really just a "rough draft". Basically 7:37 is a prophecy fulfilled in Jesus. 7:38 "This is he (Jesus).." The church in the wilderness is clearly Israel. The church in the wilderness is not the body of Christ. There is to be a distinction made here between the two, until Pentecost. (Church becomes body of Christ when baptized with the Spirit).

7:39 mentions Egypt, - the church in the wilderness (Israel) was an "assembly" that was "called out of Egypt". - Progressive revelation shows that now we as Christians (in Christ ; the body of Christ) are the church, an "assembly" that is "called out of the world". (Egypt being a type of the world).

I think my error of thinking the church started at Pentecost was because I was making "the church" and "the body of Christ" the same thing... and they are... now. The church started in the wilderness with Israel - The Body of Christ started at Pentecost with the apostles (Israelites).

Acts 7:45 Correctly says "Jesus". - All modern versions change this to "Joshua". Which Joshua, is a 'type' of Jesus Christ (second advent). The names are similar, as Joshua came from the Old Testament Hebrew > to English. And the name Jesus came from the New Testament Greek > to English. Same with Hebrews 4:8 - This is not a mistranslation it is advanced revelation. Joshua is a type of the Lord Jesus. Same with Hebrew 2:12 which i'll quote

For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

The church here is the church in the wilderness. They sang the song of Moses (Exodus 15:1 ff) And Israel will sing it again in the time of Jacobs trouble (7 years of tribulation).

Jesus is the captain of their salvation. Joshua worshipped Jesus as the captain of the LORD's host in Joshua 5:13-15 (This is he, that was in the church of the wilderness - 7:38)

Hebrews 2:12 is a quote from Psalm 22:22 except the church is called a "congregation".

I think Acts 7:38 could be used to show how the church didn't replace Israel, because it began with Israel. These are not 2 different churches. Jesus did not go to the Gentiles, he only went to Israel. The disciples were all Jewish Hebrew Israelites, they were the church during the ministry of Jesus on earth. (not yet the body).

Matthew 16:18-19a And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven (reference to the millennial kingdom). Not the keys of the church. (Paul revealed the mystery of the body of Christ).

It's been well noted that "I will build..." is future tense. And I agree... its so future tense that this refers to Israel in "the tribulation". (I will admit that I heard this taught but didn't agree with it, I didn't understand it until today.)

Does the church go through the tribulation? Yeah the church in the wilderness, AKA Israel. - The body of Christ (Christians, in Christ) do not.

Some pre-tribbers (im one) have taught the church is not mentioned after Revelation 3 , its not , the rapture is in 4:1 and that is proof the church does not go thru Daniels 70th week / or "the tribulation" (TOJT). ... I can't say that anymore. I actually believe the 7 churches of Rev, 2-3 are 7 literal churches in "the tribulation". (Each having an angel over them).

I do believe the book of Hebrews is written to literal Hebrews for the 7 years of tribulation. It mentions the church in 2:12 ; and 12:23

And James when he writes he clearly says in 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Obviously the 12 tribes of Israel (Rev. 7).  Yet James speaks of the church in 5:14 , Therefore many post tribbers say Christians go thru "the trib"

Many Hyperdispensationalists say Hebrews all thru Revelation is only for the trib, but this is extreme division. There is much instruction and learning to know in Hebrews but it must be rightly divided and understood that passages like Hebrews 6:4-6 is not for the body of Christ.

Basically what im saying with that is, Christians are raptured ; the body of Christ , the church. But by definition the church is still being built as many will be saved in the 7 year tribulation but these saints do not become part of the body of Christ.

In closing, the church started with Israel in the wilderness, - church as in congregation or assembly, called out of Egypt. Israel is God's chosen nation/people. The Messiah Jesus went to Israel and called twelve disciples/apostles for his church. The nation rejected and crucified their Messiah (bringing in the New Testament according to Hebrews 9:15-17) The church (Israel) became the body of Christ when baptized with the Spirit (at Pentecost). Peter and others preached to Jews and after they martyred Stephen, God saved Paul to preach and be the apostle of the Gentiles.

Jesus said in John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jews and Gentiles in one body.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (Jew and Gentile)

2:15-16 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

There was no body of Christ until Jesus was crucified. Only calvary made it possible for there to be "one body"... and no one was in the one body until Pentecost.

Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The church was placed into or converted into the body of Christ. (Ephesians 1:22-23)

Thanks for reading. I know its long and I was kind of everywhere... im sure it could be organized better and "fine tuned". I just wrote all this today and am new to this position and this is where I ended up... so i'd like to hear your thoughts. God bless.

-Jake.

Jake, what's the difference between being saved and born again?