MacArthur

[DaveW]

By the way - I am not referring to myself in my first paragraph above..... I  have no respect for you and expect none from you - because of your manner, not your doctrine.

[D-28 Player]

24 minutes ago, DaveW said:

This is why you get so little respect here - you first ignore then attack people who are consistently truing to engage you respectfully.

In fact, this is what you are your type do - slyly attack and prod unril you get a reaction, the cry that people are rude to you.

You show no respect and only come here with one intent - to cause strife and division.

 

What exactly was the last name you registered here with?

Or the one before that?

Dr James would be able to find out, if he was still here........

And this is precisely why I said it would be a waste of time trying to talk to you in the other thread 

21 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

1.  I do NOT support falsehood in any regard, even when it is falsehood against a doctrinal "opponent."

Then I look forward to your posts rebuking your fellows here for their lies 

 

20 minutes ago, DaveW said:

By the way - I am not referring to myself in my first paragraph above..... I  have no respect for you and expect none from you - because of your manner, not your doctrine.

Nor I you and that's why I'm putting you on ignore 

Incidentally you came out swinging fro the beginning not because of my behavior but because of the doctrines you assumed I hold because I corrected a false claim about Calvinism 

 

Edited April 7, 2017 by D-28 Player

[No Nicolaitans]

...and where is "Fundamental Faith" in all of this? I thought he wanted to have some intellectual discussions. Oh wait...I forgot. He supramisrepresentedismed himself when he joined the board. Feigning one who had concerns about Calvinism and his son's involvement in said Calvinism...all the while, being an actual proponent of Calvinism himself.

Them Calvies are a sneaky bunch...

[Alimantado]

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother "D-28 Player,"

With your usage of the phrase "you all," you have encompasses me also under the accusation concerning many "misconceptions about Reformed theology." 

Unless "you all" really means a subset of "you all"... ;)

[Orval]

On ‎4‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 1:55 PM, Alimantado said:

Orval, I've interpreted your argument here as being that if a person believes there is something necessarily prior to the finished work of Christ, then it follows that the person can only be placing their faith in that thing or things but not in the finished work of Christ itself. Is that your argument? If so then it makes me wonder about my own faith in Jesus Christ, since I also believe there are things necessarily prior to the finished work of Christ, for example God's love for the world and his desire for all to be saved. On the same basis, could someone say that I'm not putting my faith in the finished work of Christ?

"When you place God's desire for all to be saved as a prerequisite for salvation you are placing your faith in a system that begins with God's desire for all to be saved.  If you remove God's desire for all to be saved, then there is no purpose for the death of Christ for without God's desire for all to be saved why would Christ need to die for no one could go to heaven."

 

Hello my brother,

 

Thanks for the message to remind me I had not answered you.  I wrote out a response, did not post it and then forgot about it. Lol

 

I want to first point out two things about the post.

 

1^st I do believe that the Reformed position teaches a system and that the launching point of the system is election.  My point being that God, in his sovereignty, has chosen to use election as the cause of salvation.  Of course, this is from the Reformed understanding and not my personal belief.

 

2^nd To answer your question directly yes, I do believe the Reformed place their faith in God’s election.  As a continuation to this statement I must also add, that what a person believes currently does not always match up with what he believed aforetime.  Since an extremely high percentage of those in Reformed Theology converted to the Calvinistic system after they were saved their current belief is inconsistent with their practice. 

 

Very few people understand anything about theology when they get saved other than they are convicted of their need to be saved and respond accordingly by belief that Christ died for them and confession that they need salvation.  I do not believe this process changes no matter if you are Reformed or Arminian.  The point of my illustration to D-28 is that if he truly looks at his system of belief it does not hold up in regards to where his faith is placed now as opposed to when he got saved.  If he believed, then what he believes now he could not be saved because his view on sovereignty and election in relation to salvation.  His own theology teaches he cannot be saved unless he is elected to salvation.  This means he cannot come to Christ and if he comes to Christ it is because he is elect.  Therefore, salvation is all about Sovereignty and election and not about Christ.  I am saved because I am elected is a far stretch from I am saved because Christ died for me.  I am not saying D28 is not saved I am saying he could not be saved in the Reformed system because his faith would not have been in Christ but in election.     

 

To answer your second question concerning God’s desire. I freely admit this question is a bit perplexing. When we enter a discussion about God and asking if God’s desire is prerequisite to faith we are dealing with an unknown.  While God’s attributes are knowable how can we know God’s thoughts, for they are above our thoughts. While God’s sovereignty is part of his attributes election is not an attribute.  Because man puts a high value on election, predestination etc. does not mean they are part of God’s core being, his attributes. 

 

If I understand your post, your concern lies in the fact that God has a criterion (based on all of God’s attributes) for offering salvation to all and if you understand an aspect of that criteria that makes your salvation invalid.  That is not what I was implying when I wrote the post.  God is not subject to what man believes, if our faith is placed in Christ and his finished work our salvation is secured in what Christ has done, is currently doing and will do in the future. 

 

Once again, my point was that D-28 could not be saved if he believed in the system he supports at the time of salvation.  I am not challenging he is saved, but his salvation was based on choice and after salvation he chose to believe in the Reformed system.  The reformed system would not have allowed him to get saved.  How can they know they are elect prior to salvation?

 

I hope I have not muddied the waters.

    

[D-28 Player]

45 minutes ago, Orval said:

The point of my illustration to D-28 is that if he truly looks at his system of belief it does not hold up in regards to where his faith is placed now as opposed to when he got saved.  If he believed, then what he believes now he could not be saved because his view on sovereignty and election in relation to salvation.  His own theology teaches he cannot be saved unless he is elected to salvation.  This means he cannot come to Christ and if he comes to Christ it is because he is elect.  Therefore, salvation is all about Sovereignty and election and not about Christ.  I am saved because I am elected is a far stretch from I am saved because Christ died for me.  I am not saying D28 is not saved I am saying he could not be saved in the Reformed system because his faith would not have been in Christ but in election.     

 

You are a liar. Just a flat out unrepentant liar and are of your father the Father of Lies.

No matter how any times you deceitfully misrepresent my views, I will continue to believe and to preach Christ crucified for the forgiveness of sins and salvation by repentance and faith alone in Christ alone.

CHRIST A-LONE!!!! Do you understand that, liar? 

 

54 minutes ago, Orval said:

Once again, my point was that D-28 could not be saved if he believed in the system he supports at the time of salvation.  I am not challenging he is saved, but his salvation was based on choice and after salvation he chose to believe in the Reformed system.  The reformed system would not have allowed him to get saved.  How can they know they are elect prior to salvation?

 

    

If you don't believe that one is not saved by repentance and faith alone in Christ alone then it's you who are not saved not we Christians 

[No Nicolaitans]

4 minutes ago, D-28 Player said:

You are a liar. Just a flat out unrepentant liar and are of your father the Father of Lies.

No matter how any times you deceitfully misrepresent my views, I will continue to believe and to preach Christ crucified for the forgiveness of sins and salvation by repentance and faith alone in Christ alone.

CHRIST A-LONE!!!! Do you understand that, liar? 

 

If you don't believe that one is not saved by repentance and faith alone in Christ alone then it's you who are not saved not we Christians 

Good grief man...you know not of what you speak.

Shame on you.

[Orval]

8 minutes ago, D-28 Player said:

You are a liar. Just a flat out unrepentant liar and are of your father the Father of Lies.

No matter how any times you deceitfully misrepresent my views, I will continue to believe and to preach Christ crucified for the forgiveness of sins and salvation by repentance and faith alone in Christ alone.

CHRIST A-LONE!!!! Do you understand that, liar? 

 

If you believe I am a liar then defend your system.  Prove that I misrepresented the Reformed system.  You said yourself you were not saved in a Reformed church, you were saved in a free will church.  I contend that if you believed when you were saved what you believe now your faith would not have not been in Christ but in the system you propagate.  Calling me names will not convince me to disbelieve what I believe to be true. 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Orval

[D-28 Player]

1 minute ago, Orval said:

If you believe I am a liar then defend your system.  Prove that I misrepresented the Reformed system.  You said yourself you were not saved in a Reformed church, you were saved in a free will church.  I contend that if you believed now what you believed when you got saved your faith would not have not been in Christ but in the system you propagate.  Calling me names will not convince me to disbelieve what I believe to be true. 

Another lie! I never said I was saved in a "Free Will church"! I said that wasn't saved in any church but only became a member of a church after I was saved;

Like I said if you don't believe that repentance and faith alone in Christ alone is what saves then it's you who aren't saved and your fruit of dishonesty shows this to be the case 

[Alimantado]

35 minutes ago, Orval said:

Hello my brother,

 

Thanks for the message to remind me I had not answered you.  I wrote out a response, did not post it and then forgot about it. Lol

 

I want to first point out two things about the post.

 

1^st I do believe that the Reformed position teaches a system and that the launching point of the system is election.  My point being that God, in his sovereignty, has chosen to use election as the cause of salvation.  Of course, this is from the Reformed understanding and not my personal belief.

 

2^nd To answer your question directly yes, I do believe the Reformed place their faith in God’s election.  As a continuation to this statement I must also add, that what a person believes currently does not always match up with what he believed aforetime.  Since an extremely high percentage of those in Reformed Theology converted to the Calvinistic system after they were saved their current belief is inconsistent with their practice. 

 

Very few people understand anything about theology when they get saved other than they are convicted of their need to be saved and respond accordingly by belief that Christ died for them and confession that they need salvation.  I do not believe this process changes no matter if you are Reformed or Arminian.  The point of my illustration to D-28 is that if he truly looks at his system of belief it does not hold up in regards to where his faith is placed now as opposed to when he got saved.  If he believed, then what he believes now he could not be saved because his view on sovereignty and election in relation to salvation.  His own theology teaches he cannot be saved unless he is elected to salvation.  This means he cannot come to Christ and if he comes to Christ it is because he is elect.  Therefore, salvation is all about Sovereignty and election and not about Christ.  I am saved because I am elected is a far stretch from I am saved because Christ died for me.  I am not saying D28 is not saved I am saying he could not be saved in the Reformed system because his faith would not have been in Christ but in election.     

 

To answer your second question concerning God’s desire. I freely admit this question is a bit perplexing. When we enter a discussion about God and asking if God’s desire is prerequisite to faith we are dealing with an unknown.  While God’s attributes are knowable how can we know God’s thoughts, for they are above our thoughts. While God’s sovereignty is part of his attributes election is not an attribute.  Because man puts a high value on election, predestination etc. does not mean they are part of God’s core being, his attributes. 

 

If I understand your post, your concern lies in the fact that God has a criterion (based on all of God’s attributes) for offering salvation to all and if you understand an aspect of that criteria that makes your salvation invalid.  That is not what I was implying when I wrote the post.  God is not subject to what man believes, if our faith is placed in Christ and his finished work our salvation is secured in what Christ has done, is currently doing and will do in the future. 

 

Once again, my point was that D-28 could not be saved if he believed in the system he supports at the time of salvation.  I am not challenging he is saved, but his salvation was based on choice and after salvation he chose to believe in the Reformed system.  The reformed system would not have allowed him to get saved.  How can they know they are elect prior to salvation?

 

I hope I have not muddied the waters.

    

Grateful for this, Orval. I responded to your post because I was interested in a particular argument that it seemed to me you were making about why a hypothetical Calvinist who professes faith in Jesus Christ may not actually have a saving faith, which is that their particular beliefs mean that the object of their faith is wrong. More particularly, that because Calvinists belief in a system, it must necessarily follow that they are putting their faith in the first 'step' in that system, or in the 'cause' as you call it above (bolded orange), which is Election, rather than in Jesus on the cross. I outlined a general form of the argument in my first post to you and asked you whether I'd got it right but you didn't address my outline nor my question directly in your answer.

That's the discussion point I was interested in and I'd be happy to talk more about it, the reason being that, if I'm understanding you correctly, it's an argument I've heard often and at times in my walk with Christ hearing it has had an affect on my own assurance of salvation.

As to the other things you bring up, I don't have any argument with these ones (paraphrased for brevity so correct me if I've got any wrong):

--Calvinism isn't your own belief;

--A person may get saved believing one thing and then go on to believe another, thus still being saved but having a different faith to the saving faith they once had;

--Lots of Calvinists have got saved before becoming Calvinists, and therefore are saved in spite of being Calvinists;

--You aren't saying D28 isn't saved;

The two paras in blue: I don't think I understand them but they don't appear to address what I was bringing up. If we talk some more maybe those points will 'come out in the wash' so to speak.

[Orval]

12 minutes ago, D-28 Player said:

Another lie! I never said I was saved in a "Free Will church"! I said that wasn't saved in any church but only became a member of a church after I was saved;

Like I said if you don't believe that repentance and faith alone in Christ alone is what saves then it's you who aren't saved and your fruit of dishonesty shows this to be the case 

My apologies for misrepresenting you.  None-the-less you were saved and then joined an Arminian church (which is free will) and it was in this Arminian church that you began your theological trip down the road to being a full blown Calvinist.  But you were saved when you chose to come to Christ you were not saved by believing in election nor in predestination nor in the Sovereignty of God.  You were convicted of sin and responded to that conviction and came to Christ.  Not because you were elected but because you were convicted by the Holy Spirit.  Had you believed your present system of soteriology when you got saved your salvation, in my mind would not have been based the work of Christ but on the election of God.  Now instead of calling me names please defend your own positon and prove me wrong.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Orval

[No Nicolaitans]

17 minutes ago, D-28 Player said:

Another lie! I never said I was saved in a "Free Will church"! I said that wasn't saved in any church but only became a member of a church after I was saved;

Like I said if you don't believe that repentance and faith alone in Christ alone is what saves then it's you who aren't saved and your fruit of dishonesty shows this to be the case 

Hmmm...let's see who's being deceitful....

4 hours ago, Orval said:

D-28,

Would you be willing to answer a simple question from me?  Did you get saved in a Reformed church, or were you saved elsewhere and then became a member of a Reformed church? 

 

4 hours ago, D-28 Player said:

This is a little like asking, "Do you still beat your wife", as it assumes that I'm a member of a Reformed church. 

But in answer to your question, not only was I not saved in a Reformed church, the church I joined after I got saved was Arminian and when the one Reformed guy in that church tried to explain Reformed theology to me, I was almost as hateful and antagonistic toward him as you all are toward Calvinists.

I had so any of the same misconceptions about Reformed theology that you all have about Calvinism that it's safe to say I didn't really even know what it was until I had been a Christian for about ten years. 

It would appear that no one is being deceitful, yet your answer gave a certain impression. You never said whether you were saved in a church or not...so your own words defy you. Surely...as someone who holds to Calvinist doctrines, words mean something to you. Orval's assumption that you were saved in a "free-will church" are completely understandable, yet your constant accusations toward him (or her) are completely out of line.

Shame on you.

Edited April 7, 2017 by No Nicolaitans

[D-28 Player]

31 minutes ago, Orval said:

None-the-less you were saved and then joined an Arminian church (which is free will) and it was in this Arminian church that you began your theological trip down the road to being a full blown Calvinist.  But you were saved when you chose to come to Christ you were not saved by believing in election nor in predestination nor in the Sovereignty of God.  You were convicted of sin and responded to that conviction and came to Christ.  Not because you were elected but because you were convicted by the Holy Spirit.  Had you believed your present system of soteriology when you got saved your salvation, in my mind would not have been based the work of Christ but on the election of God.  Now instead of calling me names please defend your own positon and prove me wrong.

I love the way you "apologize" for lying about what I said and then call me a "full blown Calvinist". 

Yes I was saved the same way everybody who is saved is saved: By repentance and faith in Christ Not by believing in election or predestination 

I've never believed otherwise and unless someone can show me definitively from the Word of God that one is saved by believing in election or predestination will never believe otherwise 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2017 by D-28 Player

[Orval]

20 minutes ago, D-28 Player said:

I love the way you "apologize" for lying about what I said and then call me a "full blown Calvinist". 

Yes I was saved the same way everybody who is saved is saved: By repentance and faith in Christ Not by believing in election or predestination 

I've never believed otherwise and unless someone can show me definitively from the Word of God that one is saved by believing in election or predestination will never believe otherwise 

What absolute moron would read anything I've said and interpret it to mean "--A person may get saved believing one thing and then go on to believe another, thus still being saved but having a different faith to the saving faith they once had;

--Lots of Calvinists have got saved before becoming Calvinists, and therefore are saved in spite of being Calvinists"

 

 

If you are not Calvinist then why would you defend Calvinism?  Secondly if you are not Calvinist then what are you? 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Orval
edited because the original post was edited.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

9 minutes ago, D-28 Player said:

Like I said if you don't believe that repentance and faith alone in Christ alone is what saves then it's you who aren't saved and your fruit of dishonesty shows this to be the case 

Actually, I believe that the Calvinistic system would emphatically declare (according to its monergistic viewpoint) that GOD HIMSELF is the ONE WHO saves, but that He saves through "repentance and faith alone in Christ alone."  Indeed, I believe that the Calvinistic system would declare that it is GOD HIMSELF ALONE in that He first predestinated and irresistibly regenerates those whom HE has predestinated, such that those irresistibly regenerated individuals will have both the ability and the inevitable desire to repent and believe toward Christ alone.

As such, the Calvinistic system requires the following in the life events of the lost sinner:

1.  God's irresistible grace of regeneration.
2.  The sinner's divinely created repentance and faith toward Christ.

___________________________________

Now, I myself have a conflict with the manner in which Brother "D-28 Player" continues to employ the words "saved" and "salvation" (in their various forms).  In my system of belief, the words "saved" and "salvation" (in their various forms and in relation to eternal salvation) encompass such aspects of eternal salvation as regeneration, adoption, redemption, forgiveness, cleansing, imputation, justification, reconciliation, etc.  As such, I would find the Calvinistic system to be accurate in claiming that eternal salvation is through repentance and faith alone toward Christ, at least in regard to the majority of these aspects of eternal salvation.  However, when the Calvinistic system claims that regeneration is NOT through repentance and faith alone toward Christ alone because it is actually BEFORE and UNTO repentance and faith alone toward Christ alone, then I must contend that the Calvinistic system does actually deny (what I believe to be) one of the aspects of eternal salvation from being through repentance and faith alone toward Christ alone.  As such, it would appear to me that Calvinistic system teaches that MOST of the aspects of eternal salvation are through repentance and faith alone in Christ alone, but not ALL of the aspects of eternal salvation are through repentance and faith alone toward Christ alone.

Now, the Calvinistic system does indeed have the option to deny this claim by simply declaring within its system that REGENERATION is actually NOT an aspect of eternal salvation.