Music in Church

[kevinmiller]

I agree, what is in the heart is what causes people to fall away. However, the heart that tends to seek after the style of CCM is often the same heart that leads people to fall away. Six of one half dozen of the other.

And you know this because....?
How is it that so many people here seem to think they can understand a person's heart when the Bible tells us that only God can know and understand a man's heart? A person that tends to see after CCM? What kind of person is that and where is your basis for that? Anything Scriptural? But then again, you've totally skipped over what makes CCM "unholy" music. You're whole premise is based on the assumption that CCM leads you astray because it is inherently unholy. But again, I ask, what is it about those sound waves that violates Scripture?

[Guest Guest]

Wow, a total lack of discernment! Sad - in your case, anything goes, except the person that actually draws a line! :sad

You can draw YOUR line but stop drawing other peoples lines for them. Respectfully, Tank

[Guest Guest]

Here's what the BIBLE says as Seth already pointed out and was largely ignored: "Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."
and to answer your comment about Psalms not are singing all about our salvation.......well, um, it was written before the New Testament I believe......

Some of them point to the Cross. Awesome, you just proved my point many CCM songs do just that "Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

[HappyChristian]

Psalm 78:1 is interesting:

"Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. "

It has been said on this thread that what goes in the ear doesn't affect the heart. I have to say that is pretty ignorant. Anything that goes into our ears or our eyes affects our hearts. Just because there isn't a verse that says "Mine ear affecteth mine heart" doesn't mean there is no effect. Songs are not just sound waves...they have WORDS in them. God tells us that we are to incline our EARS to the WORDS of His mouth. He could sing them and they would still be words! If words don't affect us, why do we listen to preaching? They do...and the words on the CCM songs DO affect us, whether anyone who listens to a lot of it wants to admit it or not.

As far as songs not leading people astray - sorry, Kevin, but that is just not true!!! Songs are a powerful agent in our lives. Songs can uplift us, songs can depress us, songs can motivate us, songs can discourage us. Check out all the secular love songs/whine songs and you'll see what I mean. CCM is no different, and neither is traditional music.

Songs do affect our hearts. If we are right with God, the Holy Spirit will speak to us and let us know that the music we are hearing is not right. If we ignore Him and continue listening to the music that He pricks us about, He will let us go...and our hearts are so deceptive we will convince ourselves that the music is good, goldy and leading us to better things - whether it's CCM or secular. When we have allowed our hearts to deceive us, we know better than anyone - we've seen it all - we can say with assurance that all those stories we heard just aren't true, because, hey, it didn't happen to us, we are more spiritual than we've ever been...

[kevinmiller]

Psalm 78:1 is interesting:

"Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. "

It has been said on this thread that what goes in the ear doesn't affect the heart. I have to say that is pretty ignorant. Anything that goes into our ears or our eyes affects our hearts. Just because there isn't a verse that says "Mine ear affecteth mine heart" doesn't mean there is no effect. Songs are not just sound waves...they have WORDS in them. God tells us that we are to incline our EARS to the WORDS of His mouth. He could sing them and they would still be words! If words don't affect us, why do we listen to preaching? They do...and the words on the CCM songs DO affect us, whether anyone who listens to a lot of it wants to admit it or not.

As far as songs not leading people astray - sorry, Kevin, but that is just not true!!! Songs are a powerful agent in our lives. Songs can uplift us, songs can depress us, songs can motivate us, songs can discourage us. Check out all the secular love songs/whine songs and you'll see what I mean. CCM is no different, and neither is traditional music.

Songs do affect our hearts. If we are right with God, the Holy Spirit will speak to us and let us know that the music we are hearing is not right. If we ignore Him and continue listening to the music that He pricks us about, He will let us go...and our hearts are so deceptive we will convince ourselves that the music is good, goldy and leading us to better things - whether it's CCM or secular. When we have allowed our hearts to deceive us, we know better than anyone - we've seen it all - we can say with assurance that all those stories we heard just aren't true, because, hey, it didn't happen to us, we are more spiritual than we've ever been...

Oh, I totally agree. I was talking about the music itself, not the lryics. Certainly the messages we allow into our minds has an effect on us, but I don't see that possibility in music.

[bzmomo7]

And you know this because....?
How is it that so many people here seem to think they can understand a person's heart when the Bible tells us that only God can know and understand a man's heart? A person that tends to see after CCM? What kind of person is that and where is your basis for that? Anything Scriptural? But then again, you've totally skipped over what makes CCM "unholy" music. You're whole premise is based on the assumption that CCM leads you astray because it is inherently unholy. But again, I ask, what is it about those sound waves that violates Scripture?

Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black?? This is what you wrote yesterday, Kevin.

A person's heart will often determine what they display outwardly. When a person sings hymns, oftentimes they just sing the words while looking straight ahead or down at their hymnbooks. On the other hand, when I'm in a contemporary worship service, people are raising their hands as they sing about the power or glory of God. I've even see people cry at times. It seems like their hearts are really in it and they focus on and think about what they are singing rather than just saying the words. I said once before that a lot of hymns are about doctrine whereas most P&W songs are focusing on the glory and majesty and goodness of God. I see something real in the way people worship God in a contemporary service that I don't see in most traditional services. It seems like people actually care about what they're singing.

It would seem that at the time you wrote this you thought you could not only tell where a person's heart was, but whether or not they were REALLY worshipping God or not because in reference to us "nose-in-the-hymn book" type people you also said,

If that's how you worship, then that is fine, though I don't know if I would call that worship, necessarily.

:hide

[Guest Guest]

Psalm 78:1 is interesting:

"Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. "

It has been said on this thread that what goes in the ear doesn't affect the heart. I have to say that is pretty ignorant. Anything that goes into our ears or our eyes affects our hearts. Just because there isn't a verse that says "Mine ear affecteth mine heart" doesn't mean there is no effect. Songs are not just sound waves...they have WORDS in them. God tells us that we are to incline our EARS to the WORDS of His mouth. He could sing them and they would still be words! If words don't affect us, why do we listen to preaching? They do...and the words on the CCM songs DO affect us, whether anyone who listens to a lot of it wants to admit it or not.

As far as songs not leading people astray - sorry, Kevin, but that is just not true!!! Songs are a powerful agent in our lives. Songs can uplift us, songs can depress us, songs can motivate us, songs can discourage us. Check out all the secular love songs/whine songs and you'll see what I mean. CCM is no different, and neither is traditional music.

Songs do affect our hearts. If we are right with God, the Holy Spirit will speak to us and let us know that the music we are hearing is not right. If we ignore Him and continue listening to the music that He pricks us about, He will let us go...and our hearts are so deceptive we will convince ourselves that the music is good, goldy and leading us to better things - whether it's CCM or secular. When we have allowed our hearts to deceive us, we know better than anyone - we've seen it all - we can say with assurance that all those stories we heard just aren't true, because, hey, it didn't happen to us, we are more spiritual than we've ever been...

LuAnne. Well said, sister. :smile :clap:

[Guest Guest]

kevinmiller wrote:
Seth Doty wrote:
Nor is it possible for a style of music to cause someone to fall away. A falling away is a result of what's in your heart, not what goes in your ears. Could you explain to me how these sound waves cause someone to become backslidden because they are a different kind of sound wave to what is "traditional?"


I agree, what is in the heart is what causes people to fall away. However, the heart that tends to seek after the style of CCM is often the same heart that leads people to fall away. Six of one half dozen of the other.
And you know this because....?
How is it that so many people here seem to think they can understand a person's heart when the Bible tells us that only God can know and understand a man's heart? A person that tends to see after CCM? What kind of person is that and where is your basis for that? Anything Scriptural? But then again, you've totally skipped over what makes CCM "unholy" music. You're whole premise is based on the assumption that CCM leads you astray because it is inherently unholy. But again, I ask, what is it about those sound waves that violates Scripture?

Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black?? This is what you wrote yesterday, Kevin.

Good observation, bzmomo7. ITA. :smile :thumb

[futurehope]

You see what happens when I am away for 18 hours, I now have like four pages of catching up to do!! Kevin, I agree with your post as far as what is forbidden and what you said on worldliness is exactly my point. I personally don't have a problem with a lot of what is all being lumped into CCM (though most of what I listen to in my truck and at home is Southern Gospel), but my original point to this entire topic was for us all (cooperatively) to look at just what God's word says about what is worldly (where music is concerned), what is suitable for worship, etc. Unfortunately, many of the posts I have seen have been more about personal opinion or what someone's church practices. We've made it all the way from personal accusations to denominational attacks and back again. However, while I have only had the chance to scan what posts took place last night, it seems we might finally be headed towards an unbiased approach to what the Bible has to say about this subject.

So, for everyone, can we all take that approach hear and forget for a few moments about our personal preferrences? That being said, the reason I originally ask about worldliness is this: If we are not of the world and, therefore, not supposed to act like the world, doesn't this apply to music as well? If so, where is the line of worldly drawn on this matter? And, I'm sorry Tank, but I don't think that God wants us each to draw our own lines. We are all (if we are saved) part of the body of Christ and we are all to follow the same guidelines for our lives. So let's try to look in the word for what the guideline on music really is.

Also, if any of my posts have offended anyone, my sincere appologies. Let's try to remember that we are all God's children here and not be turning on eachother. The goal is only the truth.

One more thing, if we want to discuss the heart and our ability or God's ability to understand it, I'm definitely interested, but let's do it on another thread and keep this one to music.

[Guest Guest]

You see what happens when I am away for 18 hours' date=' I now have like four pages of catching up to do!! [/quote']


Too funny, futurehope. :lol

[futurehope]

Just wanted to let you all know that I did start that new thread in the lounge, for those of you who wanted to join the discussion on the heart.

[bzmomo7]

You see what happens when I am away for 18 hours, I now have like four pages of catching up to do!! Kevin, I agree with your post as far as what is forbidden and what you said on worldliness is exactly my point. I personally don't have a problem with a lot of what is all being lumped into CCM (though most of what I listen to in my truck and at home is Southern Gospel), but my original point to this entire topic was for us all (cooperatively) to look at just what God's word says about what is worldly (where music is concerned), what is suitable for worship, etc. Unfortunately, many of the posts I have seen have been more about personal opinion or what someone's church practices. We've made it all the way from personal accusations to denominational attacks and back again. However, while I have only had the chance to scan what posts took place last night, it seems we might finally be headed towards an unbiased approach to what the Bible has to say about this subject.

So, for everyone, can we all take that approach hear and forget for a few moments about our personal preferrences? That being said, the reason I originally ask about worldliness is this: If we are not of the world and, therefore, not supposed to act like the world, doesn't this apply to music as well? If so, where is the line of worldly drawn on this matter? And, I'm sorry Tank, but I don't think that God wants us each to draw our own lines. We are all (if we are saved) part of the body of Christ and we are all to follow the same guidelines for our lives. So let's try to look in the word for what the guideline on music really is.

Also, if any of my posts have offended anyone, my sincere appologies. Let's try to remember that we are all God's children here and not be turning on eachother. The goal is only the truth.

One more thing, if we want to discuss the heart and our ability or God's ability to understand it, I'm definitely interested, but let's do it on another thread and keep this one to music.

Alright, I think we can give this a shot.........we might well end up in the very same spot in another 18hrs. though.
How 'bout starting with what the definition of "worldly" is for starters so that maybe (though I doubt it) we all can have a "bridge of understanding". Definitions, anyone?

[kevinmiller]

Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black?? This is what you wrote yesterday, Kevin.

I believe you misunderstand me. I said that oftentimes, what is in a person's heart will come out. In other words, if I secretly have hatred in my heart, it's going to become evident to people around me. If I have joy in my heart, people are going to see that in my countenance. However, we can never truly know what is in their heart, it would just be a guessing game. I never made a blanket statement about it, though.

However, on the flip side, people are claiming to know a person's motives and their heart based on what music they listen to or how they choose to serve God. Not only are they saying they KNOW a person's heart but they are even going so far as to judge their spirituality. I think there's a big difference between what I was trying to say and what others are saying.

It would seem that at the time you wrote this you thought you could not only tell where a person's heart was, but whether or not they were REALLY worshipping God or not because in reference to us "nose-in-the-hymn book" type people you also said,

I was merely speculating about what the definition of true worship is. You had said that you think about the words of the song and their truths. However, I'm not entirely sure that is what worship is, Biblically. So, what I was saying was that if that is indeed worship, and you prefer to do it in that manner, that is perfectly fine. :smile

[kevinmiller]

I think someone does need to define worldly, based on Scripture and Scripture alone. I think it's used more on here than it's used in the Bible. :wink

[missfiddlyn27]

It absolutely drives me crazy!!! I've heard a couple people play that way before....it reminds me of saloon music as well. I don't like it. One time a guest speaker brought their own piano player, and she was playing "Onward Christian Soldiers" in that flowery style (which was also much higher notes than usual) during offering. It took everything in me not to speak up. When you play a song like that in a "lively, playful" manner it seems to communicate "I'm playing it this way for show and effect rather the sober reflection one would give it singing it played the way it was intended. Like it has been played for man's glory; not God's.

At the church were I attend, I think we're kinda lucky. We've got two Taiwanese girls who have piano performance degrees from a big college who play for the church. They play everything exactly how it is printed in the hymnal with mathematical accuracy. It's a little spooky. :frog