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futurehope

Music in Church

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If that's how you worship, then that is fine, though I don't know if that would be considered worship, necessarily. I'm just not sure how a person who is truly in a spirit of worship can sit as if nothing is touching them and exhibit no expression at all.

Music was often an expression of praise and worship in the OT, especially. It wasn't to "prepare hearts for the sermon." The music itself was the worship and adoration of God. That's especially why I don't see the need for songs to be about salvation or conviction of sin, that's not what music is for. At least, that's not what worship or praise music is for. Praise and worship music puts all the focus on God and His glory and in worshipping Him, I think that's a positive thing.


You tell us that we can't judge someone's heart based off their actions - even when we are using scripture to do so - in another topic, but turn around and judge someone else's worship simply by opinion?? :puzzled: I don't get it Kevin. As far as conviction of sin and salvation, is this not the root and fundamental point of why we praise God - because He did convict us of our sin so that we could be saved? Personally, I'm starting to get the idea that you are more interested in being charismatic than being doctrinally sound and growing in wisdom and truth. I don't understand your stance on this if you have no scripture to back it up with.

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The reason for that is this:

"Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

We see from this that one of the primary purposes of godly music is to teach and admonish the hearers. If the words to a song do not do that it really isn't a particularly godly song.

Every song that I can recall from scripture, is either teaching doctrine directly, or is recounting various deeds of the Lord, and thus still teaching much doctrine, but indirectly.

What we don't see in scriptural songs is something which is very common in much CCM, mindless repetition with the focus on the music so as to induce emotion, or vague wordings with only token acknowledgement to bible truths.

Psalm 136:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psalm 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psalm 136:3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psalm 136:4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psalm 136:5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

And so goes the rest of the chapter. Repetition is not always a bad thing. It might not be your preference, but certainly not wrong. If you look at the Psalms, you will often find songs that are extolling the virtues of the Lord, recalling past events, or just praising the Lord for His goodness. The Psalms are the largest examples of Biblical music in the Bible, and they seem to be more similar to P&W songs than to hymns, IMHO.

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You tell us that we can't judge someone's heart based off their actions - even when we are using scripture to do so - in another topic, but turn around and judge someone else's worship simply by opinion?? :puzzled: I don't get it Kevin. As far as conviction of sin and salvation, is this not the root and fundamental point of why we praise God - because He did convict us of our sin so that we could be saved? Personally, I'm starting to get the idea that you are more interested in being charismatic than being doctrinally sound and growing in wisdom and truth. I don't understand your stance on this if you have no scripture to back it up with.

I'm not judging, I'm saying I don't understand how that is worship. I never called into question her spirituality or anything related to it. I haven't gone outside the normal bounds of discussion and debate and attacked anyone personally. I'm not going to chase the strawman in the latter part of your post.

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Psalm 136:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psalm 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psalm 136:3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psalm 136:4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psalm 136:5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

And so goes the rest of the chapter. Repetition is not always a bad thing. It might not be your preference, but certainly not wrong. If you look at the Psalms, you will often find songs that are extolling the virtues of the Lord, recalling past events, or just praising the Lord for His goodness. The Psalms are the largest examples of Biblical music in the Bible, and they seem to be more similar to P&W songs than to hymns, IMHO.



In musical styles too?? That was the original topic here, not so much the lyrics. Though I do agree that there is nothing wrong with repetition. You can't tell God too many times that you love and adore Him.

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I don't have a problem with SOME limited CCM, however it is my PREFERENCE not to have it at church. I like the good old hymns of the faith. I love to sing them at church.

I do, however, have problems with the churches that pretend to be totally against CCM but will "adapt" Bill Gaithers songs and make them "acceptable" to be sung in church. That, my friends, is hypocrisy.

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I'm not judging, I'm saying I don't understand how that is worship. I never called into question her spirituality or anything related to it. I haven't gone outside the normal bounds of discussion and debate and attacked anyone personally. I'm not going to chase the strawman in the latter part of your post.




Yet again, you are giving opinions. What do you base your stance from?? Experiences; or truth found in God's word? That's all I'm asking.

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I don't have a problem with SOME limited CCM, however it is my PREFERENCE not to have it at church. I like the good old hymns of the faith. I love to sing them at church.

I do, however, have problems with the churches that pretend to be totally against CCM but will "adapt" Bill Gaithers songs and make them "acceptable" to be sung in church. That, my friends, is hypocrisy.



I agree MrsW. But again, you're talking about personal preferrences. What are God's preferrences??

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God's preferences are that after salvation we have a "new song" and that we make melody and sing Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Songs. That's about all He says about music apart from showing some very vibrant worship in the Old Testament. I like to see hands raised at times. Our church sings hymns mostly, but I would say that the contemporary songs fall under the category of "spiritual songs". "Spiritual songs" are the ones that actually have spiritual value, not the songs that are "christianized" from some worldly songs. Casting Crowns, for example, have many spiritual songs that are edifying to the believer, however some other CCM groups such as Zoegirl are just fluff and dance music etc.

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God's preferences are that after salvation we have a "new song" and that we make melody and sing Psalms' date=' Hymns and Spiritual Songs. That's about all He says about music apart from showing some very vibrant worship in the Old Testament. I like to see hands raised at times. Our church sings hymns mostly, but I would say that the contemporary songs fall under the category of "spiritual songs". "Spiritual songs" are the ones that actually have spiritual value, not the songs that are "christianized" from some worldly songs. Casting Crowns, for example, have many spiritual songs that are edifying to the believer, however some other CCM groups such as Zoegirl are just fluff and dance music etc.[/quote']


Trust me. I'm not intentionally trying to make this go 'round and 'round, but doesn't this bring us back to the point of: actually I'll just repost what I put up earlier.

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Kevin, please note that I'm not saying that your church is as "shallow" as some of what I had previously mentioned. But also, please realize that the bottom line, and you've basically said this yourself, it's not the music that determines the service or the amount of love and passion for our Saviour. I have made very generalized comments about "contemporary" church serices and you have done the same about the "old fashioned" ones. However, the bottom line is really about the motives, intents, and personal spiritual response to God of each individual and the church as a whole. If people are staring down at their songbooks lifelessly and singing the words out of duty, they are basically doing so in vain. In the same respect, if they are lifting their hands and singing out to make themselves appear "in tune to the Holy Spirit" (as I have heard some charasmatics put it) or to make themselves feel good, they are also in vain. So maybe we should look back to our original subject of not necessarily considering things from an emotional stand point and just simply the facts in the word. I think a good question was posed earlier: What determines (and it should come from God's word and not your opinions please) something to be appropriate for our lives and God's praise and service and not to be worldly? Also, what makes something to be worldly?

Anyone??

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Where does it say that music is to bring someone to salvation? I thought music was used to praise GOD maybe I am wrong. I read many posts that said Old Hymns turn you toward salvation and I simply agree very much so with those statemets. My questions are Why can't music in church also simply praise God for anything and everything he has done in our lives not just salvation? The Pslam's are songs right are they all about salvation? Some verses are and others talk about other things. Why is this book not considered our standard? Tank

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Yet again, you are giving opinions. What do you base your stance from?? Experiences; or truth found in God's word? That's all I'm asking.

What stance, specifically, are you referring to?

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God's preferences are that after salvation we have a "new song" and that we make melody and sing Psalms' date=' Hymns and Spiritual Songs. That's about all He says about music apart from showing some very vibrant worship in the Old Testament. I like to see hands raised at times. Our church sings hymns mostly, but I would say that the contemporary songs fall under the category of "spiritual songs". "Spiritual songs" are the ones that actually have spiritual value, not the songs that are "christianized" from some worldly songs. Casting Crowns, for example, have many spiritual songs that are edifying to the believer, however some other CCM groups such as Zoegirl are just fluff and dance music etc.[/quote']
Casting Crowns is my favorite band now. :frog
It's one of the few Christian groups I really like, I feel like there is really something to it. I do listen to secular music, as well, but there is a difference in your purpose when you listen to a fun song as opposed to a song in praise or worship to God, know what I mean? Listening to a harmless secular song is just like any other activity that might be harmless entertainment, like watching a movie on Friday night, it doesn't uplift you spiritually, but nothing necessarily inherently wrong in it, either. What do you think?

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Something is appropriate if it is not forbidden in Scripture, is not a poor testimony for Christ and is not a stumbling block for others.
As far as worldly, we need further defining of that term and what the Bible actually says about worldliness.

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Where does it say that music is to bring someone to salvation? I thought music was used to praise GOD maybe I am wrong. I read many posts that said Old Hymns turn you toward salvation and I simply agree very much so with those statemets. My questions are Why can't music in church also simply praise God for anything and everything he has done in our lives not just salvation? The Pslam's are songs right are they all about salvation? Some verses are and others talk about other things. Why is this book not considered our standard? Tank


Here's what the BIBLE says as Seth already pointed out and was largely ignored: "Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."
and to answer your comment about Psalms not are singing all about our salvation.......well, um, it was written before the New Testament I believe...... :wink

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Good post. As long as the secular music isn't immoral, then it isn't necessarily "bad" to listen to it. (by "immoral", I mean bad lyrics or a song that promotes sin)

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Here's what the BIBLE says as Seth already pointed out and was largely ignored: "Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."
and to answer your comment about Psalms not are singing all about our salvation.......well, um, it was written before the New Testament I believe...... :wink

I think based on what the Bible as a whole says, we can assume that we can sing songs that are teaching or praising God. Both are fine, Biblically.

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Psalm 136:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalm 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalm 136:3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalm 136:4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever. Psalm 136:5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever. And so goes the rest of the chapter. Repetition is not always a bad thing. It might not be your preference, but certainly not wrong. If you look at the Psalms, you will often find songs that are extolling the virtues of the Lord, recalling past events, or just praising the Lord for His goodness. The Psalms are the largest examples of Biblical music in the Bible, and they seem to be more similar to P&W songs than to hymns, IMHO.









Lol. I thought you might mention those verses. That happens to be a style very much like the refrain in a hymn. Each "for his mercy endureth for ever" comes after a mention of a distinct act or character trait of God and is expressing that each mentioned act was an act of his mercy. Hardly mindless repetition. You only posted part of the chapter, read that whole thing and tell me that song wasn't made up of doctrine. Indeed, the whole song is about the character and acts of God. It is hardly comparable to the vague, emotion based fluff which makes up the greater part of much CCM... I find it somewhat amusing that you compare the psalms to CCM, the psalms are loaded with doctrine, they are probably the single most quoted book of the bible in the NT(not 100% sure, would have to check, going by memory) However, by your own admission, CCM contains very little doctrine.


Generally speaking I find CCM is most prevalent among those that turn away from the known will of God, those that corrupt and and reject the scriptures, and it is often prevalent in the lives of those who are living in open sin. There is a reason for that... It is because most CCM has more to do with giving a feel good "religious experience" than worshiping God. You may say that is judgmental, and I agree. :Green The tree is known by it's fruit. 90% of the Christians I have known who fell into gross open sin(and unfortunately I have known quite a few) listened mostly to CCM perhaps with some secular thrown in. Most were about your and my age, and every one told me how Godly and Christ honoring their music was and how it "helped" them in their walk with Christ. :bonk: That wasn't the fruit when it matured though... Godly music doesn't make wicked people holy, but holy people will have no desire to listen to unholy music.


Ecclesiastes 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.

"Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight."

"Proverbs 21:27 The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind?"

"Psalm 50:15-17 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me. But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth? Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee."

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Kevin does have a point. There is no Scripture that says music should prepare our hearts for a sermon.



:amen::goodpost:KJB...I have always heard that prayer should prepare our hearts for a sermon. However, IMO, that is to be done prior to a church service. Then, my pastor does two invitations on Sunday morning. The first one is for anyone to lay any burdens down and/or praise and worship the Lord at the altar or in your seats. The other invitation is for salvation and for the Christian (whatever God has "convicted" you of...if anything.) I always get convicted. :lol: The Christian may come to the altar, sit in their seats...or kneel down praying, or just stand...whatever the Lord places on our hearts to do. Sunday nights and Wednesday nights are a little different...but, it is definetly prayer.


I listen to music in the car to prepare my heart. Music is again "themed" in my IFB church to go right along with the pastor's sermon. I believe it touches people's hearts. It sure touches me and my hubby's heart...and, we are praying for my (our) son...when he comes. :pray the Lord "convicts" him to come and worship, more than a handful of times. :amen:


Music fills my soul with "joy unspeakable" that is coupled with prayer.

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I thought music was used to praise GOD maybe I am wrong. I read many posts that said Old Hymns turn you toward salvation and I simply agree very much so with those statemets. My questions are Why can't music in church also simply praise God for anything and everything he has done in our lives not just salvation?


Nothing wrong with praising God in songs, it is fine, actually it is excellent, however, much of CCM is corrupt with a improper view of exactly what "praise" is. It isn't repeating a phrase which means nothing, like, "Lord I lift your name on high" for example, rather, it is specific thanks or blessing for something in his character or for something he has done. A large number of hymns are praise as well as doctrine...

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Here's what the BIBLE says as Seth already pointed out and was largely ignored: "Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."
and to answer your comment about Psalms not are singing all about our salvation.......well, um, it was written before the New Testament I believe...... :wink



bzmomo7...Great answer about the Pslams being written before the NT. :amen::goodpost:

Yes, isn't it funny how the scripture that Seth posted got "largely ignored." Or did it? Hmmm? :amen:

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Nothing wrong with praising God in songs, it is fine, actually it is excellent, however, much of CCM is corrupt with a improper view of exactly what "praise" is. It isn't repeating a phrase which means nothing, like, "Lord I lift your name on high" for example, rather, it is specific thanks or blessing for something in his character or for something he has done. A large number of hymns are praise as well as doctrine...

Lord I Lift Your Name On High

"Lord, I liftYour name on high
Lord, I love to sing Your praises
I'm so glad You're in my life
I'm so glad You came to save us

Chorus:
You came from heaven to earth
To show the way
From the earth to the cross
My debt to pay
From the cross to the grave
From the grave to the sky
Lord, I lift Your name on high"

I think those are pretty good lyrics, personally. :wink

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Lord I Lift Your Name On High

"Lord, I liftYour name on high
Lord, I love to sing Your praises
I'm so glad You're in my life
I'm so glad You came to save us

Chorus:
You came from heaven to earth
To show the way
From the earth to the cross
My debt to pay
From the cross to the grave
From the grave to the sky
Lord, I lift Your name on high"

I think those are pretty good lyrics, personally. :wink



It is a great Christian camp song and VBS song, IMO. :frog

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Seth, many of the Psalms were not "loaded" with doctrine, as you say. Some chapters were nothing more than encouragements to praise God and lift up His name. Many CCM songs will actually quote Scripture verses as part of the refrain or in a verse. It can't get much better than that.

Generally speaking I find CCM is most prevalent among those that turn away from the known will of God, those that corrupt and and reject the scriptures, and it is often prevalent in the lives of those who are living in open sin. There is a reason for that... It is because most CCM has more to do with giving a feel good "religious experience" than worshiping God. You may say that is judgmental, and I agree. :Green The tree is known by it's fruit. 90% of the Christians I have known who fell into gross open sin(and unfortunately I have known quite a few) listened mostly to CCM perhaps with some secular thrown in. Most were about your and my age, and every one told me how Godly and Christ honoring their music was and how it "helped" them in their walk with Christ. :bonk: That wasn't the fruit when it matured though... Godly music doesn't make wicked people holy, but holy people will have no desire to listen to unholy music.

I'm not sure who you've seen this happen to, I've seen quite the opposite. The people that I know who are most focused on God and concerned with spiritual things listen to both CCM and secular music. They are seeking God's will for their lives, some use the KJV exclusively(should be a plus, right? :wink ), pray daily, spend time in fellowship with God and other believers discussing spiritual things, etc. So your argument simply doesn't hold up. It was one of the reasons I started doubting what I once believed and had been taught about music. I had a few case scenarios I could pull up, too, but I found that wasn't the norm, nor could it be directly correlated to the music. In fact, it can't be. How can anyone say that what music goes into your ears is going to direct your heart? Any problem that someone has in their Christian walk is going to be as a result of where their heart is and what they are seeking after, not what music they listen to.

You can call it unholy all you want, but until you prove WHY it's unholy, there isn't much to stand on.

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