Music in Church

[Revelation3:20]

Point being that all kinds of dancing is not forbidden. There are several examples of it occurring in a God honoring context. Of course, I am sure it wasn't a seductive type of dancing, but it was dancing none the less.

[kevinmiller]

so you think that QOATING these new songs is better than qoating these old songs, meaningful, so you disrespect the rest of us who love to praise God through our hymns, the new songs have no more meanigfulness than the old ones, some are good most repeat the same things over and over more like a chant, but I guess thats ok in the more contemporary services, which I take to mean more worldly, more acceptable to the unsaved folks in this world something that wont step on your toes but tickle ears. You have obviously never been in a church that praises God through singing of hymns, there is nothing like it. That being said its all about praising God not how it makes you feel, and deffinatly not whats popular.

Whoa....hold your horses. Who said that quoting new songs is better than quoting old songs? I am totally lost. And then you go on to say that I'm disrespecting those who praise God through hymns. Again, I'm lost. Where did you get anywhere in my postings that I've disrespected those who like hymns or said anything about quoting new or old songs? If anyone has come close to getting disrespected here, it's those that listen to CCM. At least, nobody has judged a person's relationship with Christ based on what they listen to from the CCM side.

Actually, the contemporary service that I attended had 95% saved people and people getting saved and joining the church or people's lives changing on a regular basis. And this was a very small church. Trying to broad brush contemporary services is like trying to broad brush traditional services. Most Catholic services are very traditional and yet you'll never hear the gospel preached. Some other denominations are the same way. You've also got Baptists who are traditional that preach salvation all the time. Then, on the other hand, you've got charismatic Catholic churches that play all kinds of modern music and still no salvation is taught and it's that way in many other denominations, as well. But you also have Christian denominations who have contemporary services and teach doctrine and salvation. It goes both ways and there are all kinds of churches on both sides of the CCM issue.

[282Mikado]

The point is that this story has nothing to do with dancing in the church. With regards to dancing this story is about dance for the world by the world.

It seemed to me as a sarcastic stab at the traditionalists and in support of Tank's point. If I misread it I apologize. If I did not, I don't. Either way, I still don't see this as a good reference for or against dancing in the church.

[matie-k]

This topic is getting very confusing! But I wish you all could have been at our church this morning - there was a mixture of old hymns and new praise songs, and it was a huge blessing! I think it was a blessing primarily for the fact that the music's focus was on praising God and not on man.

These are the songs from this morning (and boy did everyone sing out!):

Come, Christians, join to sing
Alleluia! Amen!
Loud praise to Christ our King;
Alleluia! Amen!
Let all, with heart and voice,
Before His throne rejoice;
Praise is His gracious choice.
Alleluia! Amen!

Come, lift your hearts on high,
Alleluia! Amen!
Let praises fill the sky;
Alleluia! Amen!
He is our Guide and Friend;
To us He?ll condescend;
His love shall never end.
Alleluia! Amen!

Praise yet our Christ again,
Alleluia! Amen!
Life shall not end the strain;
Alleluia! Amen!
On heaven?s blissful shore,
His goodness we?ll adore,
Singing forevermore,
?Alleluia! Amen!?
------------------------
Great is the lord, He is holy and just
By his power we trust In his love
Great is the lord He is faithful and true
By his mercy he proves He is love

Chorus:
Great is the lord And worthy of glory
Great is the lord And worthy of praise
Great is the lord Now lift up your voice
Now lift up your voice Great is the lord
Great is the lord
-------------------------
Great is Thy faithfulness, O God my Father;
There is no shadow of turning with Thee;
Thou changest not, Thy compassions, they fail not;
As Thou hast been, Thou forever will be.

Great is Thy faithfulness!
Great is Thy faithfulness!
Morning by morning new mercies I see.
All I have needed Thy hand hath provided;
Great is Thy faithfulness, Lord, unto me!

Summer and winter and springtime and harvest,
Sun, moon and stars in their courses above
Join with all nature in manifold witness
To Thy great faithfulness, mercy and love.

Pardon for sin and a peace that endureth
Thine own dear presence to cheer and to guide;
Strength for today and bright hope for tomorrow,
Blessings all mine, with ten thousand beside!
--------------------------
I worship You Almighty God
There is none like You;
I worship You O Prince of Peace
That is what I want to do.
I give You praise,
For You are my righteousness;
I worship You Almighty God
There is none like You.

[Guest Guest]

Of course you don't see anyting inappropriate from the CCM crowd. You don't want to, and you will fight tooth and nail to keep CCM in your life. My question is why? Why is it so important that we accept CCM? Why must we allow just another part of the world in our worship services? Was the worship of 50 years ago so bad? The roots of CCM are mired in filth. If you do not believe it study out any of the contemprary music genres out there. Why must we allow this part (or any part) of the worlds filth into our church. I go to church to get away from the world, not to have to participate in the worlds garbage.

When those of my age are dead and gone and you are in our shoes, you will be fighting the same battles with the youth of your time, and some more ground will be lost. Satan will have won another battle. Who knows, maybe it will be nose and tongue piercings, or mid thigh dresses, or gay preachers...,but wait, these battles are already happening. Where do we draw the line? Good traditional, God-fearing, conservative churches are getting harder and harder to find. Why do you think this is? Perhaps it is because we keep taking another step to the left to appease our youth.

I have said several time in previous posts that I do not care if you like CCM or not it is your choice. I am just participating on a disscussion that is relevant to our times. You do not have to accept it if your song leader or Pastor does not he should not change. They also should not be upset with those in the congreagation who choose to listen to it in their personal lives. The genre of music played in typical IFB services has its roots in country music is that acceptable? Where are we to drawn the line? I believe that is a personal decision between you and Christ. If I commit sin he convicts me of it, not you. So why should I listen to people when they say it is evil when I have sought the Lord in this matter and he is in control. Whether or not you agree it does not matter. I personally favor a traditional service. However, when I am at home, work, or play I enjoy some CCM. That is all.

[Guest Guest]

Anyone who thinks the old hymns are too boring needs to spend some time around Bro. David Armistead! He taught Music Class down at camp in Dandridge, Tennessee this year, and it was amazing! He taught all of the kids to sing the old hymns the RIGHT way... and it was a blast!!! He's constantly singing too! He's like Ephesians 5:19 personified. :lol
Just ask Rachel... she knows what I'm talking about. :cool

[282Mikado]

The genre of music played in typical IFB services has its roots in country music is that acceptable?

[futurehope]

Mark 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. I have heard this verse used to talk about communication and not just eating. Thought when I read it that it might also be applied to what you hear or listen to. I also think it relates to the condition of our heart not merely us eating and booping. Tank

You say here that you have "heard" this verse used for other topics. That's the problem with many churches today. They take the same stance. This isn't about looking at how people in the past have misused the Bible to make something that they did appear okay - that's how false teachings get passed on. This is about looking at God's word for TRUTH and RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH. Instead of taking what someone else "said" about the word of God as truth, let's look at the Word itself for the truth.

[Guest Guest]

You say here that you have "heard" this verse used for other topics. That's the problem with many churches today. They take the same stance. This isn't about looking at how people in the past have misused the Bible to make something that they did appear okay - that's how false teachings get passed on. This is about looking at God's word for TRUTH and RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH. Instead of taking what someone else "said" about the word of God as truth, let's look at the Word itself for the truth.

If you read the verses that follow it makes more sense. Your right. What is even sadder is that all the churches I have been in have been IFB churches with ordained IFB Pastors from all over the country not just a select part of the country. That is why I do not buy into this idea that the only acceptable form of music is the traditional hymn. We can seek and find many songs that are scriptually based in all genres if they are played acceptable to the music leader or pastor I see nothing unscriptual about them. If the church says no new songs only traditional hymns that is up to the church. However, I do not accept this view that if some churches allow new songs to be performed within the allowance of a Holy Spirit driven Pastor that it is wrong or that the are going liberal. Nothing in scripture supports that Hmyns are the only acceptable form of sciptural based songs for a Sunday morning service.

Mark
21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

22Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

23All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

[kevinmiller]

You made some good points, Tank. :thumb

[Bro. Diego]

Sorry for entering to this subject, I am new, but I can't avoid reading some comments and not be able to say anything.

First of all greetings to everyone,

As a son of a pastor, someone who has grown in church all his life and who is preparing to be a pastor, as a humble man whose first breathes where at church I want to make a comment about music, not believing I am better than anyone, or have more authority but someone who has observed and learned.

I will like to say clearly since the beggining of my thesis, that I am 100% against CCM. If tehre si something that is destroying churches its called CCM. Braking bareers of doctrine and braking bareers of holiness.
I would like to say some of teh reasons why I am against CCM, I know many won't agree, but it doesn't bother me, i serve God not man, I look no man approvement but my Lord's.

Reasons why I am against CCM:

1- Destroys churches.
2- Provokes ecumenism
3- generally the people who wants to put CCM in church, is the people who has teh beatles, and all the world musicians cd's at there houses.
4- I haven't find one person that sincersely and honestly gives me reasons why I should allow CCM, in church, based on the BIble, actually alot of this people haven't even study the issue, but they limit on excuses, subjective ideas and preferences.
5- The rythim is just a copy of the world. By self experience because i used to be a world musician, normally the compositions of this CCM are based on inspiraton of teh world musicians. Hasven't you seen how Micheal W Smith and company sounds so much to those songs played at the bars and night clubs.
6- God is Holly and if you are going to praise God, praise him in the same way in a holly way, with music that is separated, dedicated for Him. Like same Jesus said praise him in spirit and truth not in the flesh and the error.
7- Because I can't imagine Jesus jumping, screaming, and doing all teh silly things that 99% of the CCMusicians do in there concerts.
8- Alot of CCM doesn't even say Jesus once. Its comercial and nice feeling music.
9- For those who say hymsn are boring and blah, blah, It doesn't matter you don't like X music what matters is what God likes. It doesn't matter you didn't feel "nice" because the music is not for you but for God.
10- Music and letter mustbe together, must be a team, the way you say things determines alot, you can say one word and shout it or you can say it crying and its not the same, music is moral.

[Guest Guest]

1. Destroys churches

Any proof for this or did you just pull it out of your hat coz it sounded good?

2- Provokes ecumenism

My husband and I listen to some CCM and we are not ecumenical. Neither are a LOT of people I know who listen to it. Some people who only listen to hymns are ecumenical just like some who like CCM are. How does it provoke ecumenism?

3- generally the people who wants to put CCM in church, is the people who has teh beatles, and all the world musicians cd's at there houses.

Really? And you've been to the house of everyone who listens to CCM to check their CD stash? We have hundreds of CD's, a few of them are CCM, a lot of conservative, and mostly southern gospel. We don't have any CD's of worldly artists...except for one or two with Christmas music that my husband likes. So, while you'd see CCM in our stash, you'd be hard pressed to find worldly artists.

4- I haven't find one person that sincersely and honestly gives me reasons why I should allow CCM, in church, based on the Bible, actually alot of this people haven't even study the issue, but they limit on excuses, subjective ideas and preferences.

If you are the pastor, you don't have to allow CCM. However, just becuase you don't allow it does not make it sin. I've studied the issue and so has my husband which is why we have hand selected CCM and not just any old CD we please. A lot of the arguments I've personally heard for conservative music only have not been based on the Bible but extra Biblical material that some man wrote that someone felt was good. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but don't try and tell me the Bible forbids CCM because you read a book by some guy with non-Biblical arguments and it sounded good.

5- The rythim is just a copy of the world. By self experience because i used to be a world musician, normally the compositions of this CCM are based on inspiraton of teh world musicians. Hasven't you seen how Micheal W Smith and company sounds so much to those songs played at the bars and night clubs.

You are entitled to that opinion. Doesn't make it right though. Music has to have rhythm or else it's not music.

5- The rythim is just a copy of the world. By self experience because i used to be a world musician, normally the compositions of this CCM are based on inspiraton of teh world musicians. Hasven't you seen how Micheal W Smith and company sounds so much to those songs played at the bars and night clubs.

Here is a major flaw in your arguments. CCM does NOT equal "fleshly" just because you don't like it. We can praise God in a holy way with SOME CCM just like you can with hymns. Some CCM is separated and dedicated for Christ.

7- Because I can't imagine Jesus jumping, screaming, and doing all teh silly things that 99% of the CCMusicians do in there concerts.

I have a problem when CCM musicians do this too. However, not ALL CCM musicians do that. My husband and I choose not to listen to the ones that do because we believe it is those particular ones that are glorifying their flesh.

8- Alot of CCM doesn't even say Jesus once. Its comercial and nice feeling music.

I know of several hymns and other conservative music that doesn't mention Jesus either. "The Bible Stands" is an awesome hymn and I love it, but it doesn't mention Jesus. A lot of the Sunday School choruses sung in Baptist churches are not Biblical, or are just feel-good music. Think about the song "The Grey Speckled Bird" or whatever it is...and "The Church in the Wildwood".

9- For those who say hymsn are boring and blah, blah, It doesn't matter you don't like X music what matters is what God likes. It doesn't matter you didn't feel "nice" because the music is not for you but for God.

I do not think hymns are boring, neither do most of the people that I personally know who listen to CCM. I love hymns, I sing them around the house all the time, play them, and we sing them at church all the time. We love hymns around here. We also like Southern Gospel and some CCM. Some CCM songs are very convicting and don't make me feel "nice" or "comfortable" at all.

10- Music and letter mustbe together, must be a team, the way you say things determines alot, you can say one word and shout it or you can say it crying and its not the same, music is moral.

Yep...and there is a world of difference between Marilyn Manson and Casting Crowns...can't even compare them.

[trc123]

Any proof for this or did you just pull it out of your hat coz it sounded good?



My husband and I listen to some CCM and we are not ecumenical. Neither are a LOT of people I know who listen to it. Some people who only listen to hymns are ecumenical just like some who like CCM are. How does it provoke ecumenism?



Really? And you've been to the house of everyone who listens to CCM to check their CD stash? We have hundreds of CD's, a few of them are CCM, a lot of conservative, and mostly southern gospel. We don't have any CD's of worldly artists...except for one or two with Christmas music that my husband likes. So, while you'd see CCM in our stash, you'd be hard pressed to find worldly artists.



If you are the pastor, you don't have to allow CCM. However, just becuase you don't allow it does not make it sin. I've studied the issue and so has my husband which is why we have hand selected CCM and not just any old CD we please. A lot of the arguments I've personally heard for conservative music only have not been based on the Bible but extra Biblical material that some man wrote that someone felt was good. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but don't try and tell me the Bible forbids CCM because you read a book by some guy with non-Biblical arguments and it sounded good.



You are entitled to that opinion. Doesn't make it right though. Music has to have rhythm or else it's not music.



Here is a major flaw in your arguments. CCM does NOT equal "fleshly" just because you don't like it. We can praise God in a holy way with SOME CCM just like you can with hymns. Some CCM is separated and dedicated for Christ.



I have a problem when CCM musicians do this too. However, not ALL CCM musicians do that. My husband and I choose not to listen to the ones that do because we believe it is those particular ones that are glorifying their flesh.



I know of several hymns and other conservative music that doesn't mention Jesus either. "The Bible Stands" is an awesome hymn and I love it, but it doesn't mention Jesus. A lot of the Sunday School choruses sung in Baptist churches are not Biblical, or are just feel-good music. Think about the song "The Grey Speckled Bird" or whatever it is...and "The Church in the Wildwood".



I do not think hymns are boring, neither do most of the people that I personally know who listen to CCM. I love hymns, I sing them around the house all the time, play them, and we sing them at church all the time. We love hymns around here. We also like Southern Gospel and some CCM. Some CCM songs are very convicting and don't make me feel "nice" or "comfortable" at all.



Yep...and there is a world of difference between Marilyn Manson and Casting Crowns...can't even compare them.

MrsW, you certainly hit the nail on the head with that reply. :goodpost:

[Bro. Diego]

Alot to answer, let me see wher do I start, I don't think you are opened so other people can show what they think, I do think independently i show you what I believe and why, its not going to make a difference, but well at least let me answer some:

1- What a lack of respect on asking me if I invented that stuff, mam I know what I am talking I don'thave to explain you all what happened but I can tell you many churches including one of ours is having a very big division problem because a missionary brought the liberal ideas of worldy CCM, so NO i am not inventing, I am suffering the problem of a division on church, since the begining of your post I can see what a lack of respect and that you have close your mind and your ears.

2- Well let me tell you Mrs that it provokes ecumensim independently of what you can say, just open yoru eyes and see the truth, don't you see those silly CCM in the catholic, charismatic, pentecostal, baptist church, don't you? Or now what I am inventing something? And answering the quote that says that many people who liusten to hymns are ecumenical, haha, lets do a least and compare. I have never seen a Charles Wesley concert where the catholic priest makes the begining prayer like many of this musicians do.

3- I recommendo you to read and think before writing next time. How does my sentence start? Let's see. G-E-N-E-R-A-L-L-Y yep generally, and i did it on purpose because i know the people who thinks like you and they always use the same excuses. And by the way its true. In general christians who listen to CCM listen world music, if you don't believe me i will show you, go to the youth people of your church and check there ipods, and then you come and ask me again if i have gone to everyone house.

4- Can i ask you something. Do you have any music knowledge? Have you study music composition? Do you know something of that? I am just asking, because i doubt if you have you will hardly say this, but i give credit to the doubt maybe you are and you just want to believe that.

5- Again, please read before writing, you are taking totally the idea my text. Not worthy even to try to answer this one.

6- Big error! BIg error! First you don't know me, to say I like or i don't like CCM, so you started wrong, I don't like to wake up every morning early and take a cold shower but I have to. I like CCM but God doesn't so I don't listen it.
Question: Which CCM is honestly separated and dedicated to God? hmmm. I would like to listen that. Go to a Jar of clays concert or one of this people and you ll see that in there practices they play Red hot chili peppers, Nirvana, etc. Because there is where they get there "holly and separated " inspiration.

7- Intresting. You guys probablly just have like one CCM cd then.

8- Hymns must be tested to, in there lyrics, not because they are hymns they are necesarily good, but alotof them do.

And the thing is that altough some hymns don't use Jesus they do use Lord, God, Jehovah, etc, and like the church in the wildwood its solemn doctrinefor the church.

9- Nice.

10- I didnt get your point and I read it 3 times.
For me is just silly how many people start singing there Satanic Contemporary Music and start lifting hands and crying, like a show, ahah, pure emotion, pure emotion, flesh and not spirit.

Hope you like my post, Mrs. :coffee
trc123 a glass of cofee for you too and all what I wrote for you too, think about it, but please, and please, before writing and saying you hit in the nail if you are going to try to argue with me think before talking and not just write what comes to your mind please.

:amen:

[futurehope]

[quote="Bro. Diego"]
Hope you like my post, Mrs. :coffee
trc123 a glass of cofee for you too and all what I wrote for you too, think about it, but please, and please, before writing and saying you hit in the nail [b]if you are going to try to argue with me[/b] think before talking and not just write what comes to your mind please.

:amen:[/quote]

Bro. Diego and MrsW,

I understand that you are very strongly convicted in what you believe, but in the future, would you mind to be a little less offensive :thumbdown and a little more scriptual :Bible: in your arguments?? Diego, here you tell trc what I have highlighted in bold - I hope you are not here to argue [b]your[/b] :roll personal opinions but only the truths and facts found in the KJB. As to the both of you, neither of you have backed your opinions with scripture to this point, and, that being the case, are wasting your time throwing your opinions around. Nothing here will be taken as fact or truth until you back it up with God's word.

Thanks,

Futurehope